We must go back to a fairer early 20th century system of doing things

[Dr.Traveler]

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth.

Problem here is that we weren't a world power until the Europeans knocked each other out with WWI. We didn't assume the position of World Leader until after WWII, at which point the USSR became the other dominant power using a completely opposing philosophy.

It's easy to look back at the 1890-1920's with rosy glasses, but the reality is it kinda sucked to be everyone who wasn't rich. Medical care and life expectancy was a joke, electric power was limited to the cities, guys like Tesla ended up getting railroaded by guys like Edison. Cronyism was the rule of the day. Miners lived in practical slave communities. Workers had terrible hours, poor pay, and unsafe jobs.

The problem is that the economy is seeing the same problem academics has seen for the last 50 years, namely we're getting to the point that massive innovation is fairly damn difficult, while it is far easier to specialize and improve. Gates and Jobs became rich, wealthy, and powerful for inventing new interfaces for existing technology and then hiring smart folks to work for them.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I have actually lived for short times as they did prior to WW1. No thank you. Ever use and outhouse at -20 degrees? And experiance not to be missed.

Indoor plumbing wasn't invented by the government, nimrod. All the things that have made life better since the 19th century were the creations of private companies. Which laws or government programs were responsible for the invention of the following:

• television
• radio
• electric lights
• refrigeration
• motor car
• airplane
• phonograph
• motion pictures
• air conditioning
• anesthesia
• penicillin
• polio vaccine
• DDT
• cell phones
• indoor plumbing
• combine
• tractor
• aluminum can

You do realize that GPS was invented by the military, and controlled by the government until they decided to release it to the public, right?

 

[ABikerSailor]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

I too am watching this History Channel production but have a little different take on what I'm seeing and hearing than are you. For example, the actions of J. P. Morgan in fucking over Nicola Tesla, efforts by John D. Rockefeller to discredit electricity as a source of lighting 'cause he held enormous amounts of kerosene lamp oil, and the actions of Henry Clay Frick who cut wages, increased hours of the steel workers and used the Pinkerton's to murder steel workers in an effort to break the workers strike.

See "The Gilded Age" for the rest of the story of how the rich got richer and the poor poorer and compare it to what the Republican Party has become. A reactionary party - that is one which wishes to return to the past - where the rich write the rules and enforce them too. See also the last chapter wherein the rich buy the Presidency but end up with a Progressive as POTUS.

Thank you Matthew for posting this thread, it puts contemporary issues in perspective and demonstrates in stark detail why I believe Capital needs Labor, Labor needs Capital and both need a strong independent federal government able to regulate the demands and actons of both.

PS Independent means we must have campaign finance reform and repeal the crazy decision by five men to equate Free Speech with Money in CU v. FEC

The point is that our nation went forward because a few men were driven to succeed. If they were motivated by goodwill or greed is up for debate. Without the incentive of personal gain, chances are these men wouldn't have been as motivated to accomplish what they did.

You know, it wasn't the government that Ford had to fight to get the right to build his cars, it was the monopoly that existed for the patent. Ford not only improved the car, but he also improved it's construction, and he didn't fight the federal government, he fought other businessmen who didn't want to let him into their monopoly.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

I too am watching this History Channel production but have a little different take on what I'm seeing and hearing than are you. For example, the actions of J. P. Morgan in fucking over Nicola Tesla, efforts by John D. Rockefeller to discredit electricity as a source of lighting 'cause he held enormous amounts of kerosene lamp oil, and the actions of Henry Clay Frick who cut wages, increased hours of the steel workers and used the Pinkerton's to murder steel workers in an effort to break the workers strike.

See "The Gilded Age" for the rest of the story of how the rich got richer and the poor poorer and compare it to what the Republican Party has become. A reactionary party - that is one which wishes to return to the past - where the rich write the rules and enforce them too. See also the last chapter wherein the rich buy the Presidency but end up with a Progressive as POTUS.

Thank you Matthew for posting this thread, it puts contemporary issues in perspective and demonstrates in stark detail why I believe Capital needs Labor, Labor needs Capital and both need a strong independent federal government able to regulate the demands and actons of both.

PS Independent means we must have campaign finance reform and repeal the crazy decision by five men to equate Free Speech with Money in CU v. FEC

The point is that our nation went forward because a few men were driven to succeed. If they were motivated by goodwill or greed is up for debate. Without the incentive of personal gain, chances are these men wouldn't have been as motivated to accomplish what they did.

I think you see what you want to see, the only one who had 'goodwill' in mind was Tesla.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I have actually lived for short times as they did prior to WW1. No thank you. Ever use and outhouse at -20 degrees? And experiance not to be missed.

Indoor plumbing wasn't invented by the government, nimrod. All the things that have made life better since the 19th century were the creations of private companies. Which laws or government programs were responsible for the invention of the following:

• television
• radio
• electric lights
• refrigeration
• motor car
• airplane
• phonograph
• motion pictures
• air conditioning
• anesthesia
• penicillin
• polio vaccine
• DDT
• cell phones
• indoor plumbing
• combine
• tractor
• aluminum can

You do realize that GPS was invented by the military, and controlled by the government until they decided to release it to the public, right?

pripat doesn't realize anything, he's a parrot.

 

[bripat9643]

I have actually lived for short times as they did prior to WW1. No thank you. Ever use and outhouse at -20 degrees? And experiance not to be missed.

Indoor plumbing wasn't invented by the government, nimrod. All the things that have made life better since the 19th century were the creations of private companies. Which laws or government programs were responsible for the invention of the following:

• television
• radio
• electric lights
• refrigeration
• motor car
• airplane
• phonograph
• motion pictures
• air conditioning
• anesthesia
• penicillin
• polio vaccine
• DDT
• cell phones
• indoor plumbing
• combine
• tractor
• aluminum can

You do realize that GPS was invented by the military, and controlled by the government until they decided to release it to the public, right?

So the government created one thing that is useful to consumers? Impressive.

In reality, a private company invented GPS. The military just paid the bill.

 

[bripat9643]

You know, it wasn't the government that Ford had to fight to get the right to build his cars, it was the monopoly that existed for the patent. Ford not only improved the car, but he also improved it's construction, and he didn't fight the federal government, he fought other businessmen who didn't want to let him into their monopoly.

What utter horseshit. There were literally hundreds of companies building motor cars when Henry Ford came out with the Model 'T.'

 

[beagle9]

Henry FORD understood that his workers needed to make enough money to become CONSUMERS.

That is why he paid about 5 times the average workers salary to his employees.

If the rest of the robber barons had been so PROGRESSIVE, the UNION movements would probably have been unnecessary.

Oh, and by the way?

FORD HATED THE BANKSTERS OF HIS DAY.

He never EVER borrowed money to expand his business.

Yes, sadly there has been greed gone wild big time in the job place, but it has been on both sides of the isle in protections there of over time, and this from the corruption in washington, so where did that leave us ? OUT of Time and OUT of Money finally, and this has affected us as a lower to middle class workforce in America badly. We have not been redeemed yet by all of this that has happened to us, and we probably won't be the way I see it, cuz we didn't matter to them then when they did it to us, and we sure as hec don't matter to them now after they did it to us. Now we have to worry about government trying to clean it all up, when they have this huge sector of people that are dependent on them, and for whom they claim are dependent because of all of this mess, when infact they were dependent way before now, but the government will use them to break everything down into a socialistic, redistributive utopia that will finish us all off in the end. wow

 

[bripat9643]

pripat doesn't realize anything, he's a parrot.

What am I "parroting," nimrod?

 

[francoHFW]

Raising taxes on the only class to make any money the last thirty years is communism? LOL

Better look up Ford's early years...

Roonny Raygun's dreamy gilded age dream...what a catastrophe.

 

[francoHFW]

RW propaganda BS is what you're repeating.

 

[bripat9643]

RW propaganda BS is what you're repeating.

Yeah, we know, anything the conflicts with your Marxist delusions is "RW propaganda."

 

[MostJadedGamer]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

Um that is the absolute last thing we should do. Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie murdered the poor, and put 90% of the people in poverty. Almost all of the wealth was controlled by 3 men.

There method was to kill competition so they could raise prices as much as possible, and cut as many jobs as possible, lowered wages so much that even the people lucky enough to have a job stayed in poverty, and forced there workers to work in extremely dangerous conditions.

This time period proved there is nothing more evil then unregulated capitalism.

The amount of progress, and innovation that happen can NEVER make up for the the of amount evil, and suffering, and death these wicked men brought on the people of this country.

 

[akelch]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

Um that is the absolute last thing we should do. Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie murdered the poor, and put 90% of the people in poverty. Almost all of the wealth was controlled by 3 men.

There method was to kill competition so they could raise prices as much as possible, and cut as many jobs as possible, lowered wages so much that even the people lucky enough to have a job stayed in poverty, and forced there workers to work in extremely dangerous conditions.

This time period proved there is nothing more evil then unregulated capitalism.

The amount of progress, and innovation that happen can NEVER make up for the the of amount evil, and suffering, and death these wicked men brought on the people of this country.

If you believe this then you know the government helped them to do it by giving the same men the power over our money supply by creating the Federal Reserve. It was these men that hatch the idea and sponsored the bill, bought the shares, and own it. If you want to regulate business... Start by getting rid of the Fed.

 

[editec]

IN the longer term the philosophy behind the social and economic systems that worked so well in the 19th and 20th century is not going to work in THIS century.

Oh I know and am even sympathetic with those of you who wish that were not so.

But if wishes were horses beggers would ride.

We have a world wide economy, now, and the world wide interdependent economy that has developed is going to take a new philosophical approach asto how our society works.

The system we have now cannot work much longer which is exactly why it is changing right before our very eyes.

HAVING NATIONS as the respository of power and decision making is a system whose time is nearly over.

Looks to me like the MASTERS are about the business of insuring that nations are on their way out.

The POWER and descion-making will probably go to corporations and cabals of corporations operating through some kind of SHAM democractic process involving those nations that formerly actually had REAL power.

 

[tooAlive]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

Um that is the absolute last thing we should do. Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie murdered the poor, and put 90% of the people in poverty. Almost all of the wealth was controlled by 3 men.

There method was to kill competition so they could raise prices as much as possible, and cut as many jobs as possible, lowered wages so much that even the people lucky enough to have a job stayed in poverty, and forced there workers to work in extremely dangerous conditions.

This time period proved there is nothing more evil then unregulated capitalism.

The amount of progress, and innovation that happen can NEVER make up for the the of amount evil, and suffering, and death these wicked men brought on the people of this country.

You're right in the sense that 100% unregulated capitalism isn't good for the workers. We get that; that's not what this thread is about.

And there are things worse than unregulated capitalism. Just take a look at a history book. That's the excuse that communists give when defending their ideologies.

We're not against regulation - because ultimately, competition is what drives progress. What we need is a federal government that promotes personal responsibility, growth, development, and success for everyone. Not one that takes from some that produce to give to others that don't.

 

[jillian]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

fairer?

like in the days of jim crow?
and segregation?
and bosses smacking their female secretaries on the rear?
and firing them if they refused to have sex with them?
like when a guy had to give his wife three stitches in order to be charged with abuse?
or when a husband couldn't rape his wife?

that kind of fair?

 

[tooAlive]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

fairer?

like in the days of jim crow?
and segregation?
and bosses smacking their female secretaries on the rear?
and firing them if they refused to have sex with them?
like when a guy had to give his wife three stitches in order to be charged with abuse?
or when a husband couldn't rape his wife?

that kind of fair?

You're missing the entire point of this thread.

You could've made a valid point on how the working conditions didn't benefit workers, and they were treated like slaves.

Instead, you come with all that nonsense that not even the looniest right-winger would be in favor of.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'm watching the Men that built America on the history channel. I'll tell you the model for remaining number one is in the late 19th century and early 20th century when a man could become as powerful as hell pleased.

Why is it good for innovation? Simply because under this system a man would work really fucking hard to come up with new idea's and drive our nation forward. This is why we had electricity, light bulbs, trains, rail-tracks, oil, steel, cars, trucks, trains, etc. Without a strong reason to innovate why would anyone want to invite and create wealth for our nation? Today China is kicking our ass for just this reason! Now I'll admit that workers deserve high working standards and fair pay. Again fair pay is what the market rates it at...This is a law of economics!

If we wish to remain the most powerful economic engine on earth. We're going to have to relearn how and why we became such in the first place. The rich must want to invest not only within our national interest but within theirs. Yes, there's nothing what so ever wrong with a man becoming filthy fucking rich for good idea's.

This is something we learn or die on. I agree that the workers deserves a clean work place with a fair market place wage. We can agree on that?

Um that is the absolute last thing we should do. Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie murdered the poor, and put 90% of the people in poverty. Almost all of the wealth was controlled by 3 men.

There method was to kill competition so they could raise prices as much as possible, and cut as many jobs as possible, lowered wages so much that even the people lucky enough to have a job stayed in poverty, and forced there workers to work in extremely dangerous conditions.

This time period proved there is nothing more evil then unregulated capitalism.

The amount of progress, and innovation that happen can NEVER make up for the the of amount evil, and suffering, and death these wicked men brought on the people of this country.

You're right in the sense that 100% unregulated capitalism isn't good for the workers. We get that; that's not what this thread is about.

And there are things worse than unregulated capitalism. Just take a look at a history book. That's the excuse that communists give when defending their ideologies.

We're not against regulation - because ultimately, competition is what drives progress. What we need is a federal government that promotes personal responsibility, growth, development, and success for everyone. Not one that takes from some that produce to give to others that don't.

Good grief, "We're not against regulation - because ultimately, competition is what drives progress." Care to explain, 'cause this 'sounds' like word salad to me?

Actually please explain this entire post, it makes no sense to anyone but an ideologue?

Fact: Labor needs Capital and Capital needs Labor. When labor is exploited history demonstrates social strive is produced.

 

[tooAlive]

Um that is the absolute last thing we should do. Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie murdered the poor, and put 90% of the people in poverty. Almost all of the wealth was controlled by 3 men.

There method was to kill competition so they could raise prices as much as possible, and cut as many jobs as possible, lowered wages so much that even the people lucky enough to have a job stayed in poverty, and forced there workers to work in extremely dangerous conditions.

This time period proved there is nothing more evil then unregulated capitalism.

The amount of progress, and innovation that happen can NEVER make up for the the of amount evil, and suffering, and death these wicked men brought on the people of this country.

You're right in the sense that 100% unregulated capitalism isn't good for the workers. We get that; that's not what this thread is about.

And there are things worse than unregulated capitalism. Just take a look at a history book. That's the excuse that communists give when defending their ideologies.

We're not against regulation - because ultimately, competition is what drives progress. What we need is a federal government that promotes personal responsibility, growth, development, and success for everyone. Not one that takes from some that produce to give to others that don't.

Good grief, "We're not against regulation - because ultimately, competition is what drives progress." Care to explain, 'cause this 'sounds' like word salad to me?

Actually please explain this entire post, it makes no sense to anyone but an ideologue?

Fact: Labor needs Capital and Capital needs Labor. When labor is exploited history demonstrates social strive is produced.

If there aren't any regulations, someone somewhere will game the system.

And if we allowed monopolies to exists, there wouldn't be any competition. If there are two competing corporations, one of them will ultimately have to do something better than the other one if they want to succeed. Hence, when I say competition drives progress. They're forced to innovate or they go out of business. That's a good thing.

And regulation also means that the workers working for said companies are treated fairly and paid adequate salaries. Henry Ford figured out that paying your workers a decent wage and not overworking them is actually good for business.

Can you understand that a little better?