War Being Decided on Op-ed Pages instead of Battlefield?

[LuvRPgrl]

Except that it's total bull... I find it interesting that you have more problem with information being given to the public than WHAT the underlying information represents.

People die in war. How many are dying, how they are dying and whether their deaths are for a good purpose is something the public has a right to know and to decide for themselves.

Or should we do what they used to do in the old Soviet Union and play pro-government propaganda 24/7?

And yet the MSM fails to show the accomplishments that go on there every day.

Its an obvious ploy on emotions, everybody knows some soldiers are dying in Iraq. If we need info, it would be accurate NUMBERS.

Either you really believe what you posted, in which case you are truly delusional, or you are acting like a defense attorny and defending your side no matter what, and that, to me, makes you a traitor. You are more interested in your side winning the political battle here at home, to the point you would like to see us fail in Iraq.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Well it seems some people payed attention to the fable The Grasshopper and the Ant when they were kids.

Get your excuses ready early.

Nevermind bungling policy makers that started the war and the architects of the war who basicly blew it after the first year. No it isn't the combination of arrogance, ignorance, and greed that loses the war, its the damn librul media.

You accuse the policy makers of bungling it. HOW much do you know of the details of the policies? Are you calling the generals that the administration relied and still do, so heavily on, a bunch of idiotic bunglers.

And how is it that this administration can be so so so terrible in the Iraqi theatre, making them a bunch of bunglers, and yet be so extremely successful here at home in preventing terrorist attacks?

Its easy to criticize, but fact of the matter is, this is an extremely difficult situation, and it will take time (after all, look how long it took the brilliant founding fathers to come up with a workable Constitution, hint, it was longer than a decade).
We have in fact had many sucesses, but idiots like you like to ignore them. Successes in a very dire and difficult situation. You know, they did have an election there. Can you make that claim for any other arab nation? You know, they are not a theocracy or a dictatorship anymore. You know, millions went out and voted upon the threat of death.
Is it perfect? No, but like the founding of our country, the US, it will take time. They have to adapt to the ever adapting tactics of the evil, vile murderous terrorists (they are NOT FUCKING INSURGENTS). And the IRaqi govt is making changes in strategy as well as the US forces. Fact is, it will take time to train all the Iraqi forces needed to allow us to leave. Fact is, those numbers are increasing daily.
It is just a matter of time before the Iraqi govt has enough military to allow us to leave.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

And I think it's nuts to say CNN is aiding and abetting the enemy. Sorry. But I do. As for the MSM, I've said before, and I continue to believe that it's called "mainstream" for a reason.... it's cause it's not extremist.....

Its not extreme for the MSM to actually use knowingly fake documents to attack the SITTING PRESIDENT?
Its mainstream only because there is limited choice. When people have actual real choice, where do they go? Talk radio is the only medium that has real choice, and its dominated by conservatism.

As for factual reports about the WOT. Most of us don't believe that Iraq has anything to do with the WOT..

Thats total bullshit.

But that aside, I don't think you (and that's a generic you, not a personal you) do want factual reports. I think you only want things that are pro-Iraq and pro-Bush. Sorry... just how it seems to me. I'm sure I could be proven wrong on that..

Yes, you are wrong. We just dont want propaganda films whose only intent is to emotionalize the issue. That film provided absolutely NO NEW INFORMATION what so ever.

As for releasing "classified information"... we know that isn't the case. I remember Gary Hart talking years ago about tracking the money and Kerry being involved in it as well since they had decided to track the money the same way they did with the banking and drug cases.

Now you wanna talk classified info... perhaps we might want to discuss Bob Novak writing about the company that Valerie Plame worked for and endangering every contact that worked with the company.

Or like a guy stuffing documents in his pants and or socks?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I realize that. But at this point, even people who started out thinking Iraq was a good idea believe it's been handled so badly that it's a total and complete failure..

Yea, because of the negative influence of the MSM. Fact is, we will win this, despite the MSM and the liberals.

You think that because then, as now, there was a badly run war for badly run reasons with brave troops being sacrificed for the vanity of a few in power. And in both cases, the flow of information, giving people a chance to make a reasonable assessment of the situation, resulted in the unpopularity of the war..

You think WWII was run badly? There were tons of mistakes made there. Pearl Harbor, Philippines, etc, etc. Fact is, we won the vietnam war, the north gave up and signed the paris peace accord and agreed to stop attacking the south, BECAUSE OUR TACTICS WERE WEARING THEM OUT. In the tet offensive, we actually did pretty well, but you would never know because of how the MSM presented it. I suggest you actually go and dig up some FACTUAL STATISTICS on the vietnam war, then you would get an accurate picture, something the MSM never shows us.

That said, I think both then and now, had overwhelming force been used originally, the war would have been much different..

Of course it would have been different. But it was a choice that had to be made. Hindsight is 20/20, but there were lots of pretty good arguements for both sides.

The press has no negative effect on war..

Really? Go back and read your first statement in this post. Are you saying a lot of people who once thought it was a good idea no longer do?

The run up to Iraq was practically a love letter to George Bush's agenda. People yell about the NYT, but it was Judy Miller's (untruthful) coverage which helped lead us into this conflict in the first place.



I think the media has always been a check on government... hence it being the Fourth Estate. Has an old and honorable history... Ben Franklin really liked his printing press, no?



I agree... but probably for the opposite reason you do. I think embedding journalists gives government control over the message instead of the truth being reported.



I certainly don't think information about things like troop locations and the like should be published. I'd never want to see otherwise unpublished information being used to hurt troops.

But I don't think not allowing coffins to be photographed is covered by that tent.

 

[sitarro]

But I don't think not allowing coffins to be photographed is covered by that tent.

What desperately needed information would the photographing of coffins produce. The President feels a need to honor our fallen soldiers by not allowing the image of their coffins to be used for cheap political bullshit. It is the same reason he doesn't attend the funerals. He knows all too well what a media circus it becomes where ever he goes and will not do that to the families of our heroes, it's one of the reasons I feel he is a great man and President. He does meet with relatives but in closed door sessions where they are hidden from the obtrusive actions of the assholes looking for a story withouy any regard for privacy or respect.

I find it so typical you would bring up this bullshit.... any news agency that wants to shoot a bunch of flag draped coffins can stage it themselves, the difference is we know that it is what it is.

 

[sitarro]

As to the subject of photographing coffins, there have been photographs of great respect that have been taken. My brother sent me an e-mail last month with a story that was told about a traveler on a plane home. Along with the story was a link to 2 photographs and their stories that took 1st and 2nd place in a contest. I highly suggest following that link to view these outstanding captures of a very sad but also proud part of time, there is nothing like the respect a Marine shows for their fallen comrads.........here is the story.........


Last week, while traveling to Chicago on business, I noticed a Marine sergeant traveling with a folded flag, but did not put two and two together. After we boarded our flight, I turned to the sergeant, who'd been invited to sit in First Class (across from me), and inquired if he was heading home.

No, he responded.


Heading out I asked?


No. I'm escorting a soldier home.

Going to pick him up?

No. He is with me right now. He was killed in Iraq. I'm taking him home to his family.


The realization of what he had been asked to do hit me like a punch to the gut. It was an honor for him. He told me that, although he didn't know the soldier, he had delivered the news of his passing to the soldier's family and felt as if he knew them after many conversations in so few days. I turned back to him, extended my hand, and said, Thank you. Thank you for doing what you do so my family and I can do what we do.

Upon landing in Chicago the pilot stopped short of the gate and made the following announcement over the intercom.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to note that we have had the honor of having Sergeant Steeley of the United States Marine Corps join us on this flight. He is escorting a fallen comrade back home to his family. I ask that you please remain in your seats when we open the forward door to allow Sergeant Steeley to deplane and receive his fellow soldier. We will then turn off the seat belt sign."

Without a sound, all went as requested. I noticed the sergeant saluting the casket as it was brought off the plane, and his action made me realize that I am proud to be an American.

So here's a public Thank You to our military Men and Women for what you do so we can live the way we do.


signed: Stuart Margel -- Washington, D.C.

now the link

http://www.poyi.org/63/11/01.php

for those that can't open the link .

First Place

Todd Heisler The Rocky Mountain News
When 2nd Lt. James Cathey's body arrived at the Reno Airport, Marines climbed into the cargo hold of the plane and draped the flag over his casket as passengers watched the family gather on the tarmac. During the arrival of another Marine's casket last year at Denver International Airport, Major Steve Beck described the scene as one of the most powerful in the process: "See the people in the windows? They'll sit right there in the plane, watching those Marines. You gotta wonder what's going through their minds, knowing that they're on the plane that brought him home," he said. "They're going to remember being on that plane for the rest of their lives. They're going to remember bringing that Marine home. And they should."

Second Place
Todd Heisler The Rocky Mountain News
The night before the burial of her husband's body, Katherine Cathey refused to leave the casket, asking to sleep next to his body for the last time. The Marines made a bed for her, tucking in the sheets below the flag. Before she fell asleep, she opened her laptop computer and played songs that reminded her of 'Cat,' and one of the Marines asked if she wanted them to continue standing watch as she slept. "I think it would be kind of nice if you kept doing it," she said. "I think that's what he would have wanted."

 

[Dr Grump]

The President feels a need to honor our fallen soldiers by not allowing the image of their coffins to be used for cheap political bullshit.

Talking about a load of total bullshit. The president wouldn't know what honour was. No, the president doesn't want the caskets photographed because he knows the negative affect such shots would have on his failed war in Iraq. Hearing about people dying is one thing, seeing the coffin is another. You talk of cheap politcal bullshit, that is exactly why he doesn't want the coffins photographed....Honour for fallen soldiers? buullllllshit!

 

[theHawk]

Talking about a load of total bullshit. The president wouldn't know what honour was. No, the president doesn't want the caskets photographed because he knows the negative affect such shots would have on his failed war in Iraq. Hearing about people dying is one thing, seeing the coffin is another. You talk of cheap politcal bullshit, that is exactly why he doesn't want the coffins photographed....Honour for fallen soldiers? buullllllshit!

Awww, too bad. You can't use the image of coffins for your own political purposes. Why don't you stop pretending that YOU are sacrificing anything for your country. Because I'm willing to bet YOU haven't done jack shit for this country. I highly doubt you ever wore the uniform, so I don't think you're entitled to force military families to have the coffins of their loved one paraded in front of cameras for your benefit. We have an all volunteer military, and most of them believe in what they do. THEY are the ones making the sacrifices, so do them a favor and stop pretending you're upset about it.

 

[jillian]

Awww, too bad. You can't use the image of coffins for your own political purposes. Why don't you stop pretending that YOU are sacrificing anything for your country. Because I'm willing to bet YOU haven't done jack shit for this country. I highly doubt you ever wore the uniform, so I don't think you're entitled to force military families to have the coffins of their loved one paraded in front of cameras for your benefit. We have an all volunteer military, and most of them believe in what they do. THEY are the ones making the sacrifices, so do them a favor and stop pretending you're upset about it.

So...what have you sacrificed? You posting from Iraq?

 

[Dr Grump]

Awww, too bad. You can't use the image of coffins for your own political purposes. Why don't you stop pretending that YOU are sacrificing anything for your country. Because I'm willing to bet YOU haven't done jack shit for this country. I highly doubt you ever wore the uniform, so I don't think you're entitled to force military families to have the coffins of their loved one paraded in front of cameras for your benefit. We have an all volunteer military, and most of them believe in what they do. THEY are the ones making the sacrifices, so do them a favor and stop pretending you're upset about it.

I'm not upset about it at all. I just thought Sitty's post was silly. Where do I say I'm upset about it? And what do you know what I have or haven't done? Another typical think before you speak, knee-jerk reaction from a know-nothing neocon...how unusual...

 

[theHawk]

I'm not upset about it at all. I just thought Sitty's post was silly. Where do I say I'm upset about it? And what do you know what I have or haven't done? Another typical think before you speak, knee-jerk reaction from a know-nothing neocon...how unusual...

Saying "bulllshit" is usually a good indication someone is upset about something. My mistake.


I also noticed you didn't answer the question. But its OK, I already know the answer.

 

[sitarro]

Talking about a load of total bullshit. The president wouldn't know what honour was. No, the president doesn't want the caskets photographed because he knows the negative affect such shots would have on his failed war in Iraq. Hearing about people dying is one thing, seeing the coffin is another. You talk of cheap politcal bullshit, that is exactly why he doesn't want the coffins photographed....Honour for fallen soldiers? buullllllshit!

You know Grump, we in the United States spell honor the correct way, at least those of us that are proud to be Americans rather than pussy British wannabes. The President knows exactly what the lowlifes from the Democrat cult would do and refuses to allow them to desecrate the memories our heroes. Asswipes like Howard Dean and the treasonous jerks at CNN would be happy to pull the flags off of those coffins and film the remains inside if it meant that they could rip off one more vote. You being the predictable parrot like your twin Jili would of course answer my post the way you did, who gives a shit Polly.... go stuff a cracker up your combined asses.

Oh by the way, I posted images of coffins but they were photographed and displayed with the utmost respect for the great people we have both in and around the U,S. Military. There are 145,000 in Iraq who believe in their Commander In Chief and their mission. Almost all would not only follow him without question, voluntarily and repeatedly, but would also give their life for your right to constantly make a total ass out of yourself.....we are very lucky to have them as our protectors, I side with them. To put it in simpler terms you might better understand...... :finger: This picture's worth at least 2 words.

 

[Dr Grump]

Saying "bulllshit" is usually a good indication someone is upset about something. My mistake.

I guess that is the intricacies of the internet because I said it in a very mellow way.

I also noticed you didn't answer the question. But its OK, I already know the answer.

Actually, you have no idea...

 

[Dr Grump]

You know Grump, we in the United States spell honor the correct way, at least those of us that are proud to be Americans rather than pussy British wannabes.

You haven't clicked yet have you Sitty?

The President knows exactly what the lowlifes from the Democrat cult would do and refuses to allow them to desecrate the memories our heroes.

The president wouldn't know his arse from his elbow...

Asswipes like Howard Dean and the treasonous jerks at CNN would be happy to pull the flags off of those coffins and film the remains inside if it meant that they could rip off one more vote.

Yeah, sure they would. Got any more empty rhetoric you want to spout?

You being the predictable parrot like your twin Jili would of course answer my post the way you did, who gives a shit Polly.... go stuff a cracker up your combined asses.

Man, you have anger issues. Take some lithium...

There are 145,000 in Iraq who believe in their Commander In Chief and their mission. Almost all would not only follow him without question, voluntarily and repeatedly.

Really? You know this how? Hint, you are a clueless wonder...

but would also give their life for your right to constantly make a total ass out of yourself.

MOre gung-ho "Hail to the chief", "i'm a patriot" crapola. Go sell you medicine to the Bush admin and their marionettes...I hear they'll buy anything

To put it in simpler terms you might better understand...... :finger: This picture's worth at least 2 words.

Oh I understand you Sitty...only too well...

 

[Gunny]

Talking about a load of total bullshit. The president wouldn't know what honour was. No, the president doesn't want the caskets photographed because he knows the negative affect such shots would have on his failed war in Iraq. Hearing about people dying is one thing, seeing the coffin is another. You talk of cheap politcal bullshit, that is exactly why he doesn't want the coffins photographed....Honour for fallen soldiers? buullllllshit!

Bullshit is right .... and YOU are full of it. The President and most normal-tinking human beings with an ounce of decency in them don't want other loony left wingers such as yourself using photos of US war casualties as propaganda to bolster your baseless claim of "failed war."

You left-wingnuts are really getting your hopes up in regard to the upcoming elections. I can't wait to rub your nose in it when it all comes crumbling down and you find out the day after that all your bullshit lies and propaganda have does is galvanize conservative voters. Guess y'all learned nothing from the previous election where you also declared victory and a crumbling right before the fact.

 

[Dr Grump]

Bullshit is right .... and YOU are full of it. The President and most normal-tinking human beings with an ounce of decency in them don't want other loony left wingers such as yourself using photos of US war casualties as propaganda to bolster your baseless claim of "failed war."

You left-wingnuts are really getting your hopes up in regard to the upcoming elections. I can't wait to rub your nose in it when it all comes crumbling down and you find out the day after that all your bullshit lies and propaganda have does is galvanize conservative voters. Guess y'all learned nothing from the previous election where you also declared victory and a crumbling right before the fact.

Don't hold back Gunny! Tell me how you really feel...:tears1:

 

[Gunny]

Don't hold back Gunny! Tell me how you really feel...:tears1:

When you leave, take Tweedle Dee with you.

 

[Dr Grump]

When you leave, take Tweedle Dee with you.

Only if you take Tweedledumber with you...

 

[Gunny]

Only if you take Tweedledumber with you...

I wouldn't take you anywhere with me.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

You haven't clicked yet have you Sitty?



The president wouldn't know his arse from his elbow...:

And yet he beat your best and your brightest, not once, BUT TWICE ! OUCH !!! No wonder you are so angry ......not to mention he managed to do something your precious rhodes scholar Clinton could never do, get over 50% of the vote,,,,,,,,,hahhahahahhahahah, bwahhahahahhahah, BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

Yeah, sure they would. Got any more empty rhetoric you want to spout?:

Yes, actually they would. I have heard it many times from the men themselves when they are interviewed, something apparently you never listen to , all tied up in that tight elitist, snobbish cacoon like a good wittle liberal. Well, actually it was apparent a long time ago in your case. You sir are a treasonous traitor, and your lack of respect for the office of presidency just shows a real strain of underlying but simmering hostility. Course that seems to be true with all the real left wing nutjobs.

Yea, you want the truth about which side is really ANGRY? Dennis Miller, who was known as being somewhat liberal, then after 9/11 supported the war. He was then known as basically a moderate, he stated to Hannity and his sissy co host that he is liberal on many issues, and conservative on some. He then said, "but when Im around liberals and discuss some of my conservative views, I get alot of hostility and anger.",,,,then the dip shit liberal side kick to Hannity blurted,,,,,and very STUPIDLY,,,"well, Im sure you get the same thing when you are hanging out in your conservative circles."

"Oh no", Dennis responded, "In fact, I have never had any problems with conservatives when I speak out on my liberal points of view. They dont have any problem with it at all, its always and only been the liberals who get hostile"

Man, you have anger issues. Take some lithium...



Really? You know this how? Hint, you are a clueless wonder...




MOre gung-ho "Hail to the chief", "i'm a patriot" crapola. Go sell you medicine to the Bush admin and their marionettes...I hear they'll buy anything



Oh I understand you Sitty...only too well...