Vietnam War

[tyroneweaver]

Your right about Ike sending advisors to Vietnam, but only to advise, not to fight. The bastard, Kennedy, escalated the war and Johnson and his micromanaging created a clusterfuck. Hossfly doesn't lie so get that thought out of your empty liberal skull.

Vietnam was a "clusterfuck" from the moment Diem claimed his leadership, and in the Trumpian way claimed he won with over 95% of the vote. Pointing fingers at JFK and LBJ is AT BEST a half-truth, and a half-truth, like a lie by omission, is still an effort to mislead and thus a lie.

Bring to the liberal to put Trump in the Vietnam discussion.

JFK and LBJ started and escalated our involvement in the war, so yes they are the main culprits in this conflict. Additionally they provided the loser strategy of not engaging the North in the North, Cambodia and Laos, simply because they were afraid of China


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

Wow, not only poor syntax, but an example of total historical ignorance.

The syntax was correct, complete and concise. I was there for a couple of tours. Where were you?

'67 - '69 mostly aboard a DD on ASW Patrol, working in the Ship's Office and responding to the 1MC when called upon to run to the 5" gun wherein I was the Projectile Man.

71-73 MP that just guarded ordinance
Place was busy when nixon was bombing the north

 

[Mindful]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

 

[Hossfly]

]Sunni Man[/USER] the problem started in late 1966 when judges around the country started sweeping the streets and ordering criminals to either go to jail or join a service. I saw many, many draftees and recruits from those who couldn't read or write up to college grads who could barely read or write. It got worse right up to 1977 when I retired and didn't have to put up with those knuckleheads any more. In late '66-early '68 and late '74 to Dec '77 I could write a book about those pathetic humans. Up until 1966 a single male had to have an AFQT of 60 to join the military and from then until I got out in late '77, it dropped to 10. Imagine having an IQ of 10! SSGT Bags was correct. The trainees in '69 took Basic and AIT together if they were in that low AFQT group making it 16 weeks. The last 3 years before retiring I was 1Sgt of Special Training Company. (We called it Shirley Temple Company) I would have as many as 500 trainees in my company and each week we would graduate about 100 and receive about 100 newbies. Upon arrival the newbies would arrive by bus and when they got off I would have them line up, drop their bags and strip to their shorts. Then, my 15 DIs would search their gear and generally come up with a bunch of pistols, knives and brass knuckles. I won't go any further but you can see what king of tripe we had to deal with.[/QUOTE]

Just picked this one up,which sort of fits into your narrative.

Jimi Hendrix was given a choice, facing either prison or joining the military.[/QUOTE]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

French Indo-China. French Colonial Possession 1887-1954

 

[gipper]

A buddy of mine was an Army Ranger. His job was to locate and rescue downed pilots. He has some amazingly hair raising stories. He was nearly killed or captured many times. The downed pilot often was so stressed out with fear or from injury, he would kill his rescuer. My buddy said he often had to sneak up on the pilot and physically control him, for fear he would kill him. He did this at the ripe old age of 19....and had no fear. He said he loved it.

This is why war is a young man's game. They can be trained to ignore the danger, even thrive on it, and do as ordered.

 

[gipper]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

They shouldn't have been there. Either should have the USA.

 

[Mindful]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

They shouldn't have been there. Either should have the USA.

Tells me a lot. Thanks.

 

[BuckToothMoron]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Off the top of my head, and relying only on my limited knowledge, I’d would suggest that there was no intent to win, no plan on for the end game, no political commitment to win, no definition of success. The war seemed to escalate and President Johnson never had a vision which made it impossible for him to lead.

 

[Camp]

That war and era of American history will be debated forever. The debating points don't seem to have changed since the 60's and 70's.

 

[danielpalos]

Correct. We had it won and would have won if Nixon hadn't chickened out. Kissinger had Hanoi all ready to surrender until Nixon suddenly remembered how the Japanese sent a surrender party to the British in Singapore and damned if the Brits didn't wind up surrendering instead. So instead of accepting Hanoi's surrender, Nixon decided to pull out of Vietnam instead. What a clusterfuck that became.

`
I've read a lot of things about Vietnam, listened to hours of stories told to me by the vets who where there but I never heard anyone with your theory.

No theory, just hard, cold facts. The troops who were there knew what happened and who was to blame.

Who was to blame for the French position at Dien Bien Phu?

Did any management from Normandy neglect, "military castle doctrine"?

In both cases, it's hard to pin down. It was either Bush's or Trump's fault.

The French employed ignorance, arrogance and poor planning among other things. The Froggies thought the Viet Minh lacked anti-aircraft ability. DBP was suppose to be resupplied by air. Big booboo. All their planes got shot down.

Military Castle Doctrine? Waddaya mean? Castle Doctrine or "Stand Your Ground Law" I understand. What is "military castle doctrine?"

In historic times, castles were used to establish, "zones of control" to deny and disparage the enemy within that zone.

 

[danielpalos]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

Just "waiting to goad us into it"'; after all, we built the Panama canal.

Unfortunately, under Capitalism, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[danielpalos]

What were the French doing there in the first place?

They shouldn't have been there. Either should have the USA.

Should we "blame Madison" and the Republican Doctrine?

 

[Hossfly]

Correct. We had it won and would have won if Nixon hadn't chickened out. Kissinger had Hanoi all ready to surrender until Nixon suddenly remembered how the Japanese sent a surrender party to the British in Singapore and damned if the Brits didn't wind up surrendering instead. So instead of accepting Hanoi's surrender, Nixon decided to pull out of Vietnam instead. What a clusterfuck that became.

`
I've read a lot of things about Vietnam, listened to hours of stories told to me by the vets who where there but I never heard anyone with your theory.

No theory, just hard, cold facts. The troops who were there knew what happened and who was to blame.

Who was to blame for the French position at Dien Bien Phu?

Did any management from Normandy neglect, "military castle doctrine"?

In both cases, it's hard to pin down. It was either Bush's or Trump's fault.

The French employed ignorance, arrogance and poor planning among other things. The Froggies thought the Viet Minh lacked anti-aircraft ability. DBP was suppose to be resupplied by air. Big booboo. All their planes got shot down.

Military Castle Doctrine? Waddaya mean? Castle Doctrine or "Stand Your Ground Law" I understand. What is "military castle doctrine?"

In historic times, castles were used to establish, "zones of control" to deny and disparage the enemy within that zone.

Yes.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Its the retreat from Saigon tonight. Nixon in trouble and soldiers throwing away their medals.
Very raw.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Its the retreat from Saigon tonight. Nixon in trouble and soldiers throwing away their medals.
Very raw.

anybody who has done research on this topic knows that it wasnt the NVA or the vietcong that murdered those 58,000 americans.It was those bastards Lyndon Johnson and DICK Nixon.What pisses me off is brainwashed americans fall for the propaganda all these years later that Nixon ended the war.No the AMERICAN PEOPLE ended the war and that was the ONLY thing that got Nixon to take action.

Had he had his way and stayed in office it would have gone on for another 8 years if not for the american people standing up to our corrupt government.Nixon COULD have ended the war in 69 had he wanted to,but the bastard let it go on for another four more years and people treat him like a freaking hero.

Had JFK lived,there NEVER would have been a vietnam war.It was no secret that he had intentions to pull out completely by 1965.That is documented.that is not a mystery anymore that once LBJ got in office,he reversed Kennedys policy on vietnam.

Here is the REAL story on vietnam,this is a book EVERYONE on this thread should read.


American Tragedy: Kennedy, Johnson, and the Origins of the Vietnam War by David E. Kaiser
"American Tragedy" is the first book to draw on complete official documentation to tell the full story of how we became involved in Vietnam--and the story it tells decisively challenges widely held assumptions about the roles of Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. Using an enormous range of source materials from these administrations, Kaiser shows how the policies that led to the war were developed during Eisenhower's tenure and nearly implemented in the closing days of his administration in response to a crisis in Laos; how Kennedy immediately reversed course on Laos and refused for three years to follow recommendations for military action in Southeast Asia; and how Eisenhower's policies reemerged in the military intervention mounted by the Johnson administration.
American Tragedy: Kennedy, Johnson, and the Origins of the Vietnam War by David E. Kaiser

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The Vietnam War was a civil war we had no right to be involved in.
Poor leadership, Poor Decisions and over 50,000 dead Americans.
Waste of Blood and Treasure...... I sure hope the politician that got us involved get what is coming to them

What happened when it finished ?
Was there an enquiry ? Were people held to account ?

No need for an inquiry. The guilty culprits, Kennedy and Johnson were worm food by 1973.

What lessons were learned Hoss ?
You still get involved in places you should keep clear from and, Iraq, still seem off the pace in terms of what the reality is on the ground.

Lessons were studied and learned by War Colleges and Military Academies but the Presidents between Eisenhower and Trump had to micromanage from the White House. Johnson and Clinton were bumbling fools and Obama couldn't organize a gang bang but he thought he was Napoleon IV. Thankfully, Trump is letting the Pentagon run military matters now.

When the pentagon runs things, expect war.

you nailed it.and if you dont give them their wars they thirst for,you pay the price kennedy paid. Eisenhower despite how corrupt he was,in the end of his term to his credit, warned the american people to be aware of the military industrial complex that craved for wars.


I recently just watched all ten, 1 hr 20 min, installments of the PBS documentary; The Vietnam War. Very sobering. It's funny how the US is now making those same damn mistakes in the ME right now.


thats the EDITED version of our corrupt government of course.They always leave out the facts presented in Kaisers well documented book.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The US government wasted the lives of 58220 American soldiers and ruined the lives of tens of thousands more in nothing but a game of political brinkmanship.

what the hell you are talking about!
The entire blame lies solely in the hands of LBJ and Robert macnamara.
These two twits with no military experience mad Vietnam a war of "attrition."
Meaning, let's say there were 250,000 NVA,
If we kill 250,000, we will win.
What these idiots forgot was that every year, more people turned 18, and joined the NVA.
DOY!
That's why daily body counts were so important.
And, if you want a real education, just google Macnamara's 100,000.
He drafted 100,000 with low IQ's into the Army.
There was a unit of them going through basic training next to me in July 1969.
My basic was 8 weeks, their's was 16 weeks,
Can you say cannon fodder?


whitehall is a troll,anytime you post pesky facts that the CIA killed JFK,he gets angry and puts you on ignore for shooting down his fairy tales that oswald shot JFK.lol

 

[usmcstinger]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Containment was a difficult strategy, especially if the nation in question had land borders with communists nations that you did not want to have open war with.


The guerrilla style of the war was a challenge to an military built around the potential tank battles of WWIII.


AND, the media was a much more powerful and hard to control force.

In Northern I Corps we fought North Vietnam's Army! No VC there!

 

[SSGT Bags]

The US government wasted the lives of 58220 American soldiers and ruined the lives of tens of thousands more in nothing but a game of political brinkmanship.

what the hell you are talking about!
The entire blame lies solely in the hands of LBJ and Robert macnamara.
These two twits with no military experience mad Vietnam a war of "attrition."
Meaning, let's say there were 250,000 NVA,
If we kill 250,000, we will win.
What these idiots forgot was that every year, more people turned 18, and joined the NVA.
DOY!
That's why daily body counts were so important.
And, if you want a real education, just google Macnamara's 100,000.
He drafted 100,000 with low IQ's into the Army.
There was a unit of them going through basic training next to me in July 1969.
My basic was 8 weeks, their's was 16 weeks,
Can you say cannon fodder?


whitehall is a troll,anytime you post pesky facts that the CIA killed JFK,he gets angry and puts you on ignore for shooting down his fairy tales that oswald shot JFK.lol

what gives you the right to cut and paste my post

 

[Hossfly]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Containment was a difficult strategy, especially if the nation in question had land borders with communists nations that you did not want to have open war with.


The guerrilla style of the war was a challenge to an military built around the potential tank battles of WWIII.


AND, the media was a much more powerful and hard to control force.

In Northern I Corps we fought North Vietnam's Army! No VC there!

Same thing in the Delta in '69-'70 and Cambodia in '70. In '65 we fought NVA in the Ia Drang Valley.

 

[Correll]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Containment was a difficult strategy, especially if the nation in question had land borders with communists nations that you did not want to have open war with.


The guerrilla style of the war was a challenge to an military built around the potential tank battles of WWIII.


AND, the media was a much more powerful and hard to control force.

In Northern I Corps we fought North Vietnam's Army! No VC there!

But fighting as guerrillas while the US was there in force is my understanding.