Universal Health

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Andrew2382, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. Andrew2382
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    Andrew2382 Gold Member

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    A lot of people are on the bandwagon thinking that Universal Healthcare will be the greatest thing to happen to this country since the industrial revolution. It is just one step closer to be a socialistic society and taking a step that has known massive failures all around the world.

    There are many countries that use this sort of socialistic health program however; they have their problems as well. Once we are in a society that has a Universal healthcare program established, you will see many things change in the things we were accustomed too.

    Let's take a good look to the best example our wonderful tundra to the north, Canada.

    http://www.fraserinstitut...newsrelease.aspx?nID=4967


    "Ontario recorded the shortest waiting time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment), at 15 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada"

    25 weeks to see your MD. We complain about having to wait 45 minutes in the doctor's office.

    How about the wait tile from the MD to a specialist?

    "The First Wait: Between General Practitioner and Specialist Consultation

    The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks), and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).

    The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland (13.5 weeks), and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks)."

    I can also site examples of cases where people have gone to their MD about let's say a
    "Headache" and have to wait 3 months to see a specialist and in those 3 months die.

    It isn't pretty.

    Let's say you finally get to that specialist and you need to get an MRI or a CAT scan...Well, I know I myself won't have to wait more then a few days here to get one. Go to Canada.

    "The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia had the shortest wait for CT scans (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Manitoba (8 weeks). The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland residents waited longest (20 weeks). The median wait for ultrasound was 3.9 weeks across Canada. Alberta and Ontario displayed the shortest wait for ultrasound (2 weeks), while Prince Edward Island and Manitoba exhibited the longest ultrasound waiting time (10 weeks)."

    8 weeks for a cat scan? 20 weeks for an MRI? Are you serious? Is this what people actually want for our great country, having to wait 5 months to receive an MRI?

    If Universal healthcare is so great, why didn't Ted Kennedy receive his treatment in Canada or Cuba? He didn't, he received the best treatment money can buy.

    Let's take a swim across the ocean to our wonderful allies in England.

    How many people have died because the government won't pay for a certain type of medication because it is

    A- Too Expensive
    B- Only meant to extend life.


    Look at these examples:
    http://www.nypost.com/sev...would_kill_ted_114032.htm

    "Problem is, governments that promise to "cover everyone" always wind up cutting corners simply to save money. People with Kennedy's condition are dying or dead as a result.

    Consider Jennifer Bell of Norwich, England. In 2006, the 22-year-old complained of headaches for months - but Britain's National Health Service made her wait a year to see a neurologist.

    Then she had to wait more than three months before should could get what the NHS decided was only a "relatively urgent" MRI scan. Three days before the MRI appointment, she died.

    Consider, too, the chemo drug Kennedy is receiving: Temodar, the first oral medicine for brain tumors in 25 years.

    Temodar has been widely used in this country since the FDA approved it in 2000. But a British health-care rationing agency, the National Institute for Comparative Effectiveness, ruled that, while the drug helps people live longer, it wasn't worth the money - and denied coverage for it.

    Barack Obama - and other Democrats - have been pushing a Senate bill to set up a similar US "review board" for Medicare and any future government health-care plan.

    After denying this treatment completely for seven years, the NICE (did whoever named it intend the irony?) relented - partly. Even today, only a handful of Brits with brain tumors can get Temodar.

    And if you want to pay for Temodar out of your own pocket, the British system forces you to pay for all of your cancer care - about $30,000 a month. "

    30 grand a month, just to be able to live a little longer. God Save The Queen, I hope God has his own personal PPO.

    Here is another example from that article from Canada again-

    "Things are no different in Canada, where the wait for an MRI (once you finally get a referral) has grown to 10 weeks. For Canadians relying on their government health care, the average wait time from diagnosis of cancer to surgery is beyond the guideline set by both the US and European societies for surgical oncology.

    And Health Canada, the government system, similar refuses to pay for treatments that are often covered in America.

    Chad Curley, a 37-year-old auto worker from Windsor, Ontario, had a brain tumor like Kennedy's but can't have surgery because his is too large to be operable.

    His tumor didn't respond to Temodar and the same doctors now treating Sen. Kennedy told him and his wife that the Avastin combination could stop his tumor from growing and add months to his life. But Health Canada wouldn't pay to use Avastin to treat his tumor.

    Chad's family and friends scraped together the $5,000 for the first round of treatment in mid-November; they later saw Chad's left-side paralysis start to subside. But the money ran out - and he died on Feb. 21."

    There is a new term going around these days, perhaps many people are not familiar with it. It is called "Medical Tourism". Basically it means a person from Canada, England etc... come to a country like the United States and on their 'vacation', BOOM I need a knee replacement. Happens constantly.

    Medical tourism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "While much attention has been given to the growing trend of U.S. citizens seeking health care in other countries, other evidence points out that the largest segment of medical travelers are headed stateside.["

    Now, the main argument is everyone deserves insurance and to be covered and we have something like 45 million uninsured.

    Well let us take a look at that a little more closely...

    HOW COVERAGE VARIES



    Illegal immigrants are less likely to have health coverage than others:

    Adults

    Type
    Uninsured



    U.S. citizens
    14%



    Legal immigrants
    25%



    Illegal immigrants
    59%




    Children

    Type
    Uninsured



    U.S. citizens
    9%



    Citizens whose parents are legal immigrants
    13%



    Foreign-born children of legal immigrants
    25%



    Citizens with illegal immigrant parents
    25%



    Foreign-born children of illegal immigrants
    53%




    Source: Pew Hispanic Center, 2005


    So, to sum it up
    in Adults you have 59% of the uninsured are illegal immigrants compared to 14% US citizens

    Children- 53% Foreign born children of Illegal Immigrants and 25% of citizens with illegal immigrants. Compared to 9% US citizens.

    Seems to me we have an immigration problem, not so much a healthcare problem.

    And when it comes to premiums, I have said this many times myself, premiums are individually based. I am in the Insurance business (not medical). However, if you smoke and weigh 300 pounds then yes you are going to pay more. The problem in this country is obesity and quite frankly no one takes care of themselves anymore, and the insurance companies are on the hook. You know a lot of companies out there, Humana being one of them will pay your gym membership.

    Say NO to Universal Healthcare!
     
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  2. Contessa_Sharra
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    Contessa_Sharra Searcher for Accuracy

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    Gee, how long do you suppose those with NO healthcare coverage wait, in the US of A? Forever, maybe? Get to see a dr? Never, maybe?

    And if the wealthy are not pleased with their place on the transplant waiting list, they are free to fly to China where, ACCORDING TO RUMOR, sufficient cash will buy whatever one wants!
     
  3. xsited1
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    xsited1 Agent P

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    When the government controls healthcare, actuaries will decide who lives and who dies based on 'the greater good'.
     
  4. Jon
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    Jon The CPA

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    Tough shit. They need to start working for their own health care. If they can't afford, they need a better job or a second job. Why should those of us who do these things have to suffer for the benefit for those that don't?
     
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  5. Tech_Esq
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    Tech_Esq Sic Semper Tyrannis!

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    They can do what I did and get a high deductible policy and a Health Care Savings account. It isn't that difficult or expensive and the tools are all out there.
     
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  6. Jon
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    Jon The CPA

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    Precisely. The means are there for anyone to get healthcare. Is it expensive? YES! But do what everyone else does: budget for it.
     
  7. Tech_Esq
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    It's not even necessarily that expensive. Compared to what my employer was offering it was down right reasonable.
     
  8. Jon
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    Jon The CPA

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    True, plus the HSA gives you tax deductions. Do you also invest in IRA's, or do you just have a 401k?
     
  9. Tech_Esq
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    I have a somewhat complex retirement fund situation. I had a small IRA before going to companies that offered retirement plans. After a couple of mergers, I was part of an ESOP. When Lockheed Martin purchased that company, my shares were valued quite highly and when LM decided they didn't want our piece of the company the money from the previous 401k, the LM 401k and the ESOP were rolled into my old IRA. So, now I have a sizable IRA and small 401k with my current employer.

    And, yes the HSA gives you tax deferral of up to $5,900 per year and it rolls from year to year so you can accumulate money there. Mine also pays interest. The way we us it is that we have designated that we will spend $600 per month on health care insurance. $400 goes to the medical/dental premium and $200 goes to the HSA. You are allowed to fund the account with a one time transfer (without penalty) from your IRA. So, we did that for the initial $5,900.
     
  10. Jon
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    Yeah, IRA's are a great way to save for retirement, along with whatever 401k employers offer. It's a shame when people say they don't have a retirement plan because their company doesn't offer them. Most don't realize that IRA's were created for that reason alone, so you can save for retirement on top of whatever you're putting into social security without the need of your employer funding your retirement for you.

    When I worked at the bank, I was the IRA/HSA Administrator for a while. I can't tell you how many people came in knowing nothing about how the programs worked, all they knew was that their accountant told them to put money into these accounts for tax breaks.
     

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