Universal Health

[nia588]

you know im getting so tired of people saying free health care is bad. there are tons of countries who have universal health and they are doing fine. most western nations have universal health care. 3rd world countries even have health care for it's people.

We have the best health care in the world, but only the rich has access to it. and if you are not rich you spend a lifetime paying off medical bills

 

[Bern80]

Based on what I can see, and based on my instincts, rather than any specific model I've studied (because they're all flawed as hellas far as I could see) I still think America has the worset health care SYTEM in the industrialed world.

Not that all the others are so damned great, (they are flawed too) just that ours so obviously sucks great big wang.

But what should it be? Your bolded statement simply isn't possible. All other factors aside despite the fact that we have the best quality of care in the world, we're still the worst? that doesn't make any sense. What are we not providing that we should <(think about that) that makes us dead last in your mind?

P.S. The "We are the richest nation in the world" argument doesn't fly, so you can skip that one.

 

[Bern80]

you know im getting so tired of people saying free health care is bad. there are tons of countries who have universal health and they are doing fine. most western nations have universal health care. 3rd world countries even have health care for it's people.

We have the best health care in the world, but only the rich has access to it. and if you are not rich you spend a lifetime paying off medical bills

This is BS on so many levels. I make $12 an hour, my insureance plan is essentially an 80-20 with like $15 co-pay. I've been to a doctor a half dozen times this year already. Do the math. I'm not drowining in medical bills.

 

[nia588]

This is BS on so many levels. I make $12 an hour, my insureance plan is essentially an 80-20 with like $15 co-pay. I've been to a doctor a half dozen times this year already. Do the math. I'm not drowining in medical bills.

OK just because you have insurance doesn't mean everyone has it. I'm not drowning in medical bills either. but that's not the point. too many people in this country are drowning in medical bills.

 

[Andrew2382]

yes over 50% of those people are illegal immigrants

 

[Bern80]

OK just because you have insurance doesn't mean everyone has it. I'm not drowning in medical bills either. but that's not the point. too many people in this country are drowning in medical bills.

Follow your arguments out. What is the implication of saying too many people have too many bills?

 

[Jon]

OK just because you have insurance doesn't mean everyone has it. I'm not drowning in medical bills either. but that's not the point. too many people in this country are drowning in medical bills.

Who's fault is it they don't have insurance? Mine, yours, or theirs?

 

[Diuretic]

That's kind of exactley the point. Most government are extremely incompetent in providing services, so why are we insisting that they do so?

For something as critical as health care, only governments, through national agency, can deliver it to everyone, regardless of income, that's my point.

 

[Jon]

For something as critical as health care, only governments, through national agency, can deliver it to everyone, regardless of income, that's my point.

Why should everyone, regardless of income, get health insurance? It's not a right, it's a privilege.

 

[Diuretic]

Why should everyone, regardless of income, get health insurance? It's not a right, it's a privilege.

We have a fundamental disagreement, but it's an interesting one. I really do believe that health care (not insurance) is a basic human right. Given that you and I aren't going to get anywhere near an agreement but that's okay, because I find it interesting that you believe differently. So, a question, why is health care a privilege?

 

[Chris]

lol, i put in not partisan facts in my post, and you come at me with that garbage site. Why not give me a link on how great universal healthcare is from moveon.org while you are at it.

My shit comes from institutions in Canada and they are cold hard facts onw aiting times and the problems with the system.

Specific examples of people dying because of medicine being refused.

The only stupid one is you.

healthcare wouldn't be so fucking expensive if we didn't insure every god damn illegal alien who walks across the border.

Explain medical tourism to me genius. Why are so many people coming state side for procedures they ahve to wait months for.

You are fucking clueless

Fuck you, asshole.

I have Canadian friends who love their healthcare system. No problem seeing a doctor at all. I know doctors here that it takes months to get an appointment with. When the Canadians were asked to name the greatest Canadian of all time, they chose the man who developed their healthcare system. Is it perfect? No. No system is perfect, but a single payer system is inherently cheaper, that is why ever other Western democracy pays HALF what we pay for healthcare.

 

[Chris]

Why should everyone, regardless of income, get health insurance? It's not a right, it's a privilege.

Everyone already has health insurance. It's called the emergency room. We don't let people die on the street in this country. Not yet anyway.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Gee, how long do you suppose those with NO healthcare coverage wait, in the US of A? Forever, maybe? Get to see a dr? Never, maybe?

Do you know what gubamint health care is gonna' be like? The VA.
Imagine the VA but with worse care. I'm a vet but I never use the VA, I have my own private insurance.

Maybe the gubamint could give us a tax break on our private insurance premiums? Seriously, I don't want the gubamint doing anything for me much less providing my health care.

 

[editec]

OK just because you have insurance doesn't mean everyone has it. I'm not drowning in medical bills either. but that's not the point. too many people in this country are drowning in medical bills.

Increasingly we are finding that people who once had fairly decent health care plans at work no longer have decent plans.

The costs of those decent plans is raising so quickly that no business can afford them.

In one case I know all too well, for example, in the last five years people's health care went from coverage with $200 deductables to coverage with $4,000 deductables.

You just know the system is falling apart when you see those kinds of changes in such a short time.

More and morem less and less people have meaningful health care coverage and it really doesn't matter if they're working or not.

 

[Jon]

We have a fundamental disagreement, but it's an interesting one. I really do believe that health care (not insurance) is a basic human right.

So we don't disagree at all. Health care is a human right, health insurance is not.

 

[Chris]

So we don't disagree at all. Health care is a human right, health insurance is not.

The question is, What is the best and fairest way to provide healthcare for Americans?

A single payer system is better because it cuts out the liability lawyers, the insurance companies, and Big Pharma. That is why every other Western country pays HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

Our system is bloated and inefficient and expensive and unfair.

 

[Gunny]

A lot of people are on the bandwagon thinking that Universal Healthcare will be the greatest thing to happen to this country since the industrial revolution. It is just one step closer to be a socialistic society and taking a step that has known massive failures all around the world.

There are many countries that use this sort of socialistic health program however; they have their problems as well. Once we are in a society that has a Universal healthcare program established, you will see many things change in the things we were accustomed too.

Let's take a good look to the best example our wonderful tundra to the north, Canada.

http://www.fraserinstitut...newsrelease.aspx?nID=4967


"Ontario recorded the shortest waiting time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment), at 15 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada"

25 weeks to see your MD. We complain about having to wait 45 minutes in the doctor's office.

How about the wait tile from the MD to a specialist?

"The First Wait: Between General Practitioner and Specialist Consultation

The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks), and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).

The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland (13.5 weeks), and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks)."

I can also site examples of cases where people have gone to their MD about let's say a
"Headache" and have to wait 3 months to see a specialist and in those 3 months die.

It isn't pretty.

Let's say you finally get to that specialist and you need to get an MRI or a CAT scan...Well, I know I myself won't have to wait more then a few days here to get one. Go to Canada.

"The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia had the shortest wait for CT scans (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Manitoba (8 weeks). The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland residents waited longest (20 weeks). The median wait for ultrasound was 3.9 weeks across Canada. Alberta and Ontario displayed the shortest wait for ultrasound (2 weeks), while Prince Edward Island and Manitoba exhibited the longest ultrasound waiting time (10 weeks)."

8 weeks for a cat scan? 20 weeks for an MRI? Are you serious? Is this what people actually want for our great country, having to wait 5 months to receive an MRI?

If Universal healthcare is so great, why didn't Ted Kennedy receive his treatment in Canada or Cuba? He didn't, he received the best treatment money can buy.

Let's take a swim across the ocean to our wonderful allies in England.

How many people have died because the government won't pay for a certain type of medication because it is

A- Too Expensive
B- Only meant to extend life.


Look at these examples:
http://www.nypost.com/sev...would_kill_ted_114032.htm

"Problem is, governments that promise to "cover everyone" always wind up cutting corners simply to save money. People with Kennedy's condition are dying or dead as a result.

Consider Jennifer Bell of Norwich, England. In 2006, the 22-year-old complained of headaches for months - but Britain's National Health Service made her wait a year to see a neurologist.

Then she had to wait more than three months before should could get what the NHS decided was only a "relatively urgent" MRI scan. Three days before the MRI appointment, she died.

Consider, too, the chemo drug Kennedy is receiving: Temodar, the first oral medicine for brain tumors in 25 years.

Temodar has been widely used in this country since the FDA approved it in 2000. But a British health-care rationing agency, the National Institute for Comparative Effectiveness, ruled that, while the drug helps people live longer, it wasn't worth the money - and denied coverage for it.

Barack Obama - and other Democrats - have been pushing a Senate bill to set up a similar US "review board" for Medicare and any future government health-care plan.

After denying this treatment completely for seven years, the NICE (did whoever named it intend the irony?) relented - partly. Even today, only a handful of Brits with brain tumors can get Temodar.

And if you want to pay for Temodar out of your own pocket, the British system forces you to pay for all of your cancer care - about $30,000 a month. "

30 grand a month, just to be able to live a little longer. God Save The Queen, I hope God has his own personal PPO.

Here is another example from that article from Canada again-

"Things are no different in Canada, where the wait for an MRI (once you finally get a referral) has grown to 10 weeks. For Canadians relying on their government health care, the average wait time from diagnosis of cancer to surgery is beyond the guideline set by both the US and European societies for surgical oncology.

And Health Canada, the government system, similar refuses to pay for treatments that are often covered in America.

Chad Curley, a 37-year-old auto worker from Windsor, Ontario, had a brain tumor like Kennedy's but can't have surgery because his is too large to be operable.

His tumor didn't respond to Temodar and the same doctors now treating Sen. Kennedy told him and his wife that the Avastin combination could stop his tumor from growing and add months to his life. But Health Canada wouldn't pay to use Avastin to treat his tumor.

Chad's family and friends scraped together the $5,000 for the first round of treatment in mid-November; they later saw Chad's left-side paralysis start to subside. But the money ran out - and he died on Feb. 21."

There is a new term going around these days, perhaps many people are not familiar with it. It is called "Medical Tourism". Basically it means a person from Canada, England etc... come to a country like the United States and on their 'vacation', BOOM I need a knee replacement. Happens constantly.

Medical tourism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"While much attention has been given to the growing trend of U.S. citizens seeking health care in other countries, other evidence points out that the largest segment of medical travelers are headed stateside.["

Now, the main argument is everyone deserves insurance and to be covered and we have something like 45 million uninsured.

Well let us take a look at that a little more closely...

HOW COVERAGE VARIES



Illegal immigrants are less likely to have health coverage than others:

Adults

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
14%



Legal immigrants
25%



Illegal immigrants
59%




Children

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
9%



Citizens whose parents are legal immigrants
13%



Foreign-born children of legal immigrants
25%



Citizens with illegal immigrant parents
25%



Foreign-born children of illegal immigrants
53%




Source: Pew Hispanic Center, 2005


So, to sum it up
in Adults you have 59% of the uninsured are illegal immigrants compared to 14% US citizens

Children- 53% Foreign born children of Illegal Immigrants and 25% of citizens with illegal immigrants. Compared to 9% US citizens.

Seems to me we have an immigration problem, not so much a healthcare problem.

And when it comes to premiums, I have said this many times myself, premiums are individually based. I am in the Insurance business (not medical). However, if you smoke and weigh 300 pounds then yes you are going to pay more. The problem in this country is obesity and quite frankly no one takes care of themselves anymore, and the insurance companies are on the hook. You know a lot of companies out there, Humana being one of them will pay your gym membership.

Say NO to Universal Healthcare!

It'll be "the greatest thing" about like this bailout.

 

[Jon]

A single payer system is better because it cuts out the liability lawyers, the insurance companies, and Big Pharma.

No, it doesn't. The liability lawyers will still be there. The big pharmaceutical companies will still be making the drugs. The insurance companies will still provide health insurance.

Universal healthcare has the same obstacles as the current system, but it adds politicians into the mix. Last I checked, politicians weren't great at making a process simpler - just look at the bailout for evidence of that.

 

[Gunny]

No, it doesn't. The liability lawyers will still be there. The big pharmaceutical companies will still be making the drugs. The insurance companies will still provide health insurance.

Universal healthcare has the same obstacles as the current system, but it adds politicians into the mix. Last I checked, politicians weren't great at making a process simpler - just look at the bailout for evidence of that.

Arguing with chriskirk again? Tsk tsk ...

 

[Diuretic]

So we don't disagree at all. Health care is a human right, health insurance is not.

And my position is that it should be made available to citizens at no cost to them, given taxes are paid to government to deliver such services. If people want extra insurance, they're free to buy it.