United States: Russia directly involved in battles in Ukraine

[1776]

Inbreeding among trailer trash and apes is on display on these pro-Putin threads.

 

[B. Kidd]

Inbreeding among trailer trash and apes is on display on these pro-Putin threads.

Butthurt by the truth. A common affliction among members of the She-Man Putin Haters Club.
You'll get used to it.

 

[Stratford57]

Butthurt by the truth. A common affliction among members of the She-Man Putin Haters Club.
You'll get used to it.

Some people are so deeply brainwashed by their media so that they don't bother to understand one very simple thing: Ukrainian conflict is not about Putin, it's about fascism

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Butthurt by the truth. A common affliction among members of the She-Man Putin Haters Club.
You'll get used to it.

Some people are so deeply brainwashed by their media so that they don't bother to understand one very simple thing: Ukrainian conflict is not about Putin, it's about fascism

Well, it's about many things. Fascism, western imperialism, Putin, etc...

 

[bendog]

And hopefully we'll move to a Ukraine free to trade with all and with protections for individual freedom and educational opportunity.

 

[B. Kidd]

The EU leaders have effectively made the choice against peace in the Ukraine. The ceasefire is basically holding, even confirmed by Porshenko. Yet the EU is going ahead with a new round of sanctions tomorrow. Like our leaders, Europe has gone nuts too.

 

[bendog]

nah. The EU doesn't want war, they want Gazprom's gas. Putin's always taken one step back, and two forward. The EU is calling him out, and saying at the same time that if he backs off on territorial pillaging, he gets his euros and ships. And, he'll keep Crimea, though it'll be expensive.

 

[Camp]

The EU leaders have effectively made the choice against peace in the Ukraine. The ceasefire is basically holding, even confirmed by Porshenko. Yet the EU is going ahead with a new round of sanctions tomorrow. Like our leaders, Europe has gone nuts too.

Putin is not honoring his agreements for the ceasefire. He has no credibility. No one trust him. He still lies and claims Russia has not sent troops and weapons to Ukraine. Even after troops and weapons have been captured, photographed, video taped and seen in satellite images. Plus he still maintains tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border. Mothers in Russia are pissed off and speaking out about their sons coming home from Ukraine and having to be buried in quite and secret funerals.

 

[B. Kidd]

The EU leaders have effectively made the choice against peace in the Ukraine. The ceasefire is basically holding, even confirmed by Porshenko. Yet the EU is going ahead with a new round of sanctions tomorrow. Like our leaders, Europe has gone nuts too.

Putin is not honoring his agreements for the ceasefire. He has no credibility. No one trust him. He still lies and claims Russia has not sent troops and weapons to Ukraine. Even after troops and weapons have been captured, photographed, video taped and seen in satellite images. Plus he still maintains tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border. Mothers in Russia are pissed off and speaking out about their sons coming home from Ukraine and having to be buried in quite and secret funerals.

Quite a summarization by 'unnamed sources'.

 

[Camp]

The EU leaders have effectively made the choice against peace in the Ukraine. The ceasefire is basically holding, even confirmed by Porshenko. Yet the EU is going ahead with a new round of sanctions tomorrow. Like our leaders, Europe has gone nuts too.

Putin is not honoring his agreements for the ceasefire. He has no credibility. No one trust him. He still lies and claims Russia has not sent troops and weapons to Ukraine. Even after troops and weapons have been captured, photographed, video taped and seen in satellite images. Plus he still maintains tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border. Mothers in Russia are pissed off and speaking out about their sons coming home from Ukraine and having to be buried in quite and secret funerals.

Quite a summarization by 'unnamed sources'.

Who says they are unnamed sources? This stuff is in Russian news and Ukrainian news everyday. Also in Reuters and BBC.

 

[1776]

Actually shitstain....intel agencies say so....

Quite a summarization by 'unnamed sources'.

 

[1776]

What truth do you have kook?

It is nowhere near what I know, fucktard.

Let me give you a hint.....I know what each party is doing behind closed doors.

Butthurt by the truth. A common affliction among members of the She-Man Putin Haters Club.
You'll get used to it.

 

[bendog]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

 

[1776]

I didn't realize NATO was blocking him in the Arctic or sneaking up on him from the south, maybe that is why he is talking about invading Kazakhstan now...

Putin is actually making a slow move into the Arctic to steal the disputed resources there like oil under the sea.

Oh, but you will blame NATO, US, Bush, the boogey man, etc for Putin possibly starting a war over disputed Arctic resources.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

 

[bendog]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

Yes, "surrounded" was hyperbole. But there's no doubt Putin sees Nato as a threat, but the question is why. He's not insane. Nato has no interest in a war with Russia, or to take any Russian territory. There's no reason to think that Putin is not believing himself when he says the greatest calamity of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union. Putin invaded Georgia and Moldova prior to the Ukraine. It's nonsensical to argue that Putin's involvement in the Ukraine is because he perceives Nato as some military threat.

Further, it would require thinking he is unbalanced to reason that he seeks former satellite territories as a buffer against another conventional attack on Russia, as Napoleon and Hitler mounted.

Some suggest that Putin's real goal is to be president for life, and that may be, but imo it under estimates his legitimate concern for his country. And it is the trade pact. It's not Nato. What Putin can't have is former soviet satellites right on his border having the economic progress of places like Poland, the Czech Rep and Slovokia. Putin runs Russia as his personal bank. There are oligarchs who survive at his will. There's no way that kind of economy can compete with a freely capitalist economy. Having that right on his border would do two things: first, there's no way inferior Russian goods will compete in an import market, and second it's not in his personal interest of surviving for Russians to decide they'd like that kind of economy too. But, even that may be underestimating his real patriotic concerns. It may be that he really does not think Russia can be anymore than a UK or France economically.

 

[Decus]

Russia's economy is approximately that of Italy's. 80% of Russian exports are commodities (raw materials, energy...) and other than an arms industry, Russia doesn't produce anything of significant export value.

Putin is also losing Central Asian nations like oil-rich Kazakhstan. Given that China has made huge investments in the region and financed oil pipelines to China, the Chinese won't allow Russia to reassert control in Central Asia. Putin tried to scare Kazakhstan at the end of August but was told to go fuk himself.

"Our independence is our dearest treasure, which our grandfathers fought for," Nazarbayev added. "First of all, we will never surrender it to someone, and secondly, we will do our best to protect it."

Vladimir Putin Continues Soviet Rhetoric by Questioning Kazakhstan s Created Independence

Even the oligarchs seem to be rumbling their discontent:

"Russian authorities have placed Vladimir Yevtushenkov, one of the country’s richest men, under house arrest on charges of money laundering."

"In Russia, criminal investigations are often used as a way to settle political scores."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d901ac58-3dc5-11e4-b175-00144feabdc0.html

With Russia's resources he could have bought Europe, but sadly he is unable to adapt.

.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

Yes, "surrounded" was hyperbole. But there's no doubt Putin sees Nato as a threat, but the question is why. He's not insane. Nato has no interest in a war with Russia, or to take any Russian territory. There's no reason to think that Putin is not believing himself when he says the greatest calamity of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union. Putin invaded Georgia and Moldova prior to the Ukraine. It's nonsensical to argue that Putin's involvement in the Ukraine is because he perceives Nato as some military threat.

Further, it would require thinking he is unbalanced to reason that he seeks former satellite territories as a buffer against another conventional attack on Russia, as Napoleon and Hitler mounted.

Some suggest that Putin's real goal is to be president for life, and that may be, but imo it under estimates his legitimate concern for his country. And it is the trade pact. It's not Nato. What Putin can't have is former soviet satellites right on his border having the economic progress of places like Poland, the Czech Rep and Slovokia. Putin runs Russia as his personal bank. There are oligarchs who survive at his will. There's no way that kind of economy can compete with a freely capitalist economy. Having that right on his border would do two things: first, there's no way inferior Russian goods will compete in an import market, and second it's not in his personal interest of surviving for Russians to decide they'd like that kind of economy too. But, even that may be underestimating his real patriotic concerns. It may be that he really does not think Russia can be anymore than a UK or France economically.

Why wouldn't Putin see NATO as a military threat? Here you have an organization that is chock full of governments that are ready, willing, and able to depose governments that they dislike for little or imagined offenses. Given the rhetoric towards Putin from the U.S. government I'd say it'd be perfectly reasonable for Putin to be wary of having NATO on his doorstep, the same way the U.S. would be if Russia setup a military alliance with Mexico. It's a perfectly rational fear.

You also have to keep in mind that the U.S. and E.U. just helped overthrow Putin's puppet-government in the Ukraine. Now you could point out that Putin has no right to a puppet-government in the Ukraine, which is true, but how would the U.S. react if Putin overthrew their puppet-government in Iraq, for example? With hostility, the same way Putin reacted when it was done to him.

The simple fact is that the U.S. and E.U. deliberately decided to provoke Putin knowing what his response would be.

 

[Camp]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

Yes, "surrounded" was hyperbole. But there's no doubt Putin sees Nato as a threat, but the question is why. He's not insane. Nato has no interest in a war with Russia, or to take any Russian territory. There's no reason to think that Putin is not believing himself when he says the greatest calamity of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union. Putin invaded Georgia and Moldova prior to the Ukraine. It's nonsensical to argue that Putin's involvement in the Ukraine is because he perceives Nato as some military threat.

Further, it would require thinking he is unbalanced to reason that he seeks former satellite territories as a buffer against another conventional attack on Russia, as Napoleon and Hitler mounted.

Some suggest that Putin's real goal is to be president for life, and that may be, but imo it under estimates his legitimate concern for his country. And it is the trade pact. It's not Nato. What Putin can't have is former soviet satellites right on his border having the economic progress of places like Poland, the Czech Rep and Slovokia. Putin runs Russia as his personal bank. There are oligarchs who survive at his will. There's no way that kind of economy can compete with a freely capitalist economy. Having that right on his border would do two things: first, there's no way inferior Russian goods will compete in an import market, and second it's not in his personal interest of surviving for Russians to decide they'd like that kind of economy too. But, even that may be underestimating his real patriotic concerns. It may be that he really does not think Russia can be anymore than a UK or France economically.

Why wouldn't Putin see NATO as a military threat? Here you have an organization that is chock full of governments that are ready, willing, and able to depose governments that they dislike for little or imagined offenses. Given the rhetoric towards Putin from the U.S. government I'd say it'd be perfectly reasonable for Putin to be wary of having NATO on his doorstep, the same way the U.S. would be if Russia setup a military alliance with Mexico. It's a perfectly rational fear.

You also have to keep in mind that the U.S. and E.U. just helped overthrow Putin's puppet-government in the Ukraine. Now you could point out that Putin has no right to a puppet-government in the Ukraine, which is true, but how would the U.S. react if Putin overthrew their puppet-government in Iraq, for example? With hostility, the same way Putin reacted when it was done to him.

The simple fact is that the U.S. and E.U. deliberately decided to provoke Putin knowing what his response would be.

Lots of speculation that can't be backed up along with big doses of generic Russian propaganda.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

hmmm, so the EU grants tariff relief to help Ukraine export to the EU, while at the same time delaying Ukranian consumers cheaper access to EU imports, which will keep them buying inferior and more expensive Russian stuff. And the loss of exports to Ukraine was one of Russia's reasons for unhappiness.

EU delays entry into force of free trade pact with Ukraine - Yahoo News

In a nutshell, imo that's always been one central basis for the conflict. Yes, Putin regrets Russia's loss of Ukraine as a puppet state, but even more so the loss of the portions of what are now eastern Ukraine, but which were at one time Russian, until the Soviets coupled them to Ukraine. But, more centrally Putin's Russia does not operate with a free flow of capital, and championed by Thatcher and Reagan. It's economy cannot compete with the west in terms of efficient production, and Russia is left with its petro products and tying them to also accepting defective Russian commerce.

Let's also not forget that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO.

Yes, "surrounded" was hyperbole. But there's no doubt Putin sees Nato as a threat, but the question is why. He's not insane. Nato has no interest in a war with Russia, or to take any Russian territory. There's no reason to think that Putin is not believing himself when he says the greatest calamity of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union. Putin invaded Georgia and Moldova prior to the Ukraine. It's nonsensical to argue that Putin's involvement in the Ukraine is because he perceives Nato as some military threat.

Further, it would require thinking he is unbalanced to reason that he seeks former satellite territories as a buffer against another conventional attack on Russia, as Napoleon and Hitler mounted.

Some suggest that Putin's real goal is to be president for life, and that may be, but imo it under estimates his legitimate concern for his country. And it is the trade pact. It's not Nato. What Putin can't have is former soviet satellites right on his border having the economic progress of places like Poland, the Czech Rep and Slovokia. Putin runs Russia as his personal bank. There are oligarchs who survive at his will. There's no way that kind of economy can compete with a freely capitalist economy. Having that right on his border would do two things: first, there's no way inferior Russian goods will compete in an import market, and second it's not in his personal interest of surviving for Russians to decide they'd like that kind of economy too. But, even that may be underestimating his real patriotic concerns. It may be that he really does not think Russia can be anymore than a UK or France economically.

Why wouldn't Putin see NATO as a military threat? Here you have an organization that is chock full of governments that are ready, willing, and able to depose governments that they dislike for little or imagined offenses. Given the rhetoric towards Putin from the U.S. government I'd say it'd be perfectly reasonable for Putin to be wary of having NATO on his doorstep, the same way the U.S. would be if Russia setup a military alliance with Mexico. It's a perfectly rational fear.

You also have to keep in mind that the U.S. and E.U. just helped overthrow Putin's puppet-government in the Ukraine. Now you could point out that Putin has no right to a puppet-government in the Ukraine, which is true, but how would the U.S. react if Putin overthrew their puppet-government in Iraq, for example? With hostility, the same way Putin reacted when it was done to him.

The simple fact is that the U.S. and E.U. deliberately decided to provoke Putin knowing what his response would be.

Lots of speculation that can't be backed up along with big doses of generic Russian propaganda.

And what am I supposed to make of the complete absence of specifics with your claims?

Regardless, this essay is quite good on the subject.
John J. Mearsheimer How the West Caused the Ukraine Crisis Foreign Affairs