United States: Russia directly involved in battles in Ukraine

[Camp]

I do not know a single Russian speaking Ukrainian that wanted or wants to be annexed to Ru. Not one.

About 70 to 80% of SE Ukraine can't wait to "be annexed" by Russia, FYI. And it's more than 15 million people. I am so sick and tired from discussions about Ukraine by people who see its situations with the eyes of Western or Ukrainian media (they are singing the same song and misinforming their listeners). And besides half a country does NOT want any association with EU. Last year the people wanted to have a referendum about it, but it was never allowed (probably the results were too obvious).

What do you include as SE Ukraine and where is your link to a poll or whatever? Is Kremenchuk inside of SE Eastern Ukraine?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

They didn't simply react, they aided one group in overthrowing the Ukrainian government, and I suppose we're simply supposed to ignore the fact that in doing so they helped themselves by helping to install a government with more pro-western sympathies. Pretending they're a disinterested third party is nonsense. As for Russia, nobody is trying to portray them as disinterested. I've clearly stated on many occasions that the Ukrainian government that was overthrown was a Russian puppet, and nobody denies that Putin has many interests in the Ukraine. My point has only ever been that trying to portray Putin as some kind of imperialist while completely ignoring the role the west played in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, an imperialist move, and in deliberately provoking Putin by doing so is ridiculous. As for why NATO expansion is different this time, it's because it's right on Putin's doorstep and because it's been building to this.

Your views seem balanced and well thought out. I do not however think you have a true or accurate grasp of the feelings of the Ukrainian people in regards to the replacement of the government in Kyiv and how they feel today. There was no way they would accept dumping the EU for the Russian deal. Some wanted to go EU all the way and some wanted to see a balance of combining agreements with both, but few wanted to go RU all the way. Even today, annexation to Russia is not desired by anyone other than the extremist along the border with Russia.

According to who?

What part of my comment do you question?

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

 

[Camp]

Your views seem balanced and well thought out. I do not however think you have a true or accurate grasp of the feelings of the Ukrainian people in regards to the replacement of the government in Kyiv and how they feel today. There was no way they would accept dumping the EU for the Russian deal. Some wanted to go EU all the way and some wanted to see a balance of combining agreements with both, but few wanted to go RU all the way. Even today, annexation to Russia is not desired by anyone other than the extremist along the border with Russia.

According to who?

What part of my comment do you question?

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

It shows that the international community does not recognize the vote to have been legitimate or legal and rejects the claim of it's outcome.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

According to who?

What part of my comment do you question?

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

It shows that the international community does not recognize the vote to have been legitimate or legal and rejects the claim of it's outcome.

Not particularly surprising, but where is the evidence?

 

[Camp]

What part of my comment do you question?

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

It shows that the international community does not recognize the vote to have been legitimate or legal and rejects the claim of it's outcome.

Not particularly surprising, but where is the evidence?

Evidence? I provided a link to the actual United Nations General Assembly Resolution 11493 that rejected the election and sham vote in Crimea and a link to a BBC article that reported on the vote and rejection of the legality of the vote. What kind of evidence do you need? Do you need a country by country account of parliaments and governments that have independently rejected the vote?

 

[B. Kidd]

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

It shows that the international community does not recognize the vote to have been legitimate or legal and rejects the claim of it's outcome.

Not particularly surprising, but where is the evidence?

Evidence? I provided a link to the actual United Nations General Assembly Resolution 11493 that rejected the election and sham vote in Crimea and a link to a BBC article that reported on the vote and rejection of the legality of the vote. What kind of evidence do you need? Do you need a country by country account of parliaments and governments that have independently rejected the vote?

Interesting enough, the U.N. resolution DID NOT mention Russia or directly blame or accuse Russia of violating Ukraines territorial integrity.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

That nobody would prefer closer ties with Russia than with the EU, that a minority want to be a part of Russia rather than the Ukraine, etc... It seems to me there was a fairly conclusive vote that took place in Crimea on the subject that said the opposite. You can say it was a sham vote, which it may have been, but I'm not inclined to take the word of the U.S. or E.U. on the subject anymore than I am to take Russia's word. So unless an actual disinterested party has done some sort of conclusive polling I can't see how any of your claims regarding what the people want are anything more than your speculations.

un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416

What does that show?

It shows that the international community does not recognize the vote to have been legitimate or legal and rejects the claim of it's outcome.

Not particularly surprising, but where is the evidence?

Evidence? I provided a link to the actual United Nations General Assembly Resolution 11493 that rejected the election and sham vote in Crimea and a link to a BBC article that reported on the vote and rejection of the legality of the vote. What kind of evidence do you need? Do you need a country by country account of parliaments and governments that have independently rejected the vote?

That a government rejects an election is not evidence that the vote was in fact fraudulent.

 

[Stratford57]

[/QUOTE]Camp said:
What do you include as SE Ukraine and where is your link to a poll or whatever? Is Kremenchuk inside of SE Eastern Ukraine?[/QUOTE]

SE Ukraine includes: Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye cities and their areas (villages ans towns around). Official polls never existed, we can approximately say 70% of those areas want to be with Russia by watching protesting demonstrations (against junta) in spring. Now all the protests are suppressed, the leaders are in prison or "disappeared" , unfortunately it is very common for "democratic" Ukraine, supported by US&EU. I was one of those numerous protesters, so I could see what was going on with my own eyes. By the way "democratic" Ukraine has shut down all the Russian TV channels, so that there would be possible only "Ukrainian truth" to broadcast.
Kremenchug as far as I know belongs to Poltava area and seems to be more pro-Ukrainian than pro-Russian.

 

[Camp]

Camp said:
What do you include as SE Ukraine and where is your link to a poll or whatever? Is Kremenchuk inside of SE Eastern Ukraine?[/QUOTE]

SE Ukraine includes: Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye cities and their areas (villages ans towns around). Official polls never existed, we can approximately say 70% of those areas want to be with Russia by watching protesting demonstrations (against junta) in spring. Now all the protests are suppressed, the leaders are in prison or "disappeared" , unfortunately it is very common for "democratic" Ukraine, supported by US&EU. I was one of those numerous protesters, so I could see what was going on with my own eyes. By the way "democratic" Ukraine has shut down all the Russian TV channels, so that there would be possible only "Ukrainian truth" to broadcast.
Kremenchug as far as I know belongs to Poltava area and seems to be more pro-Ukrainian than pro-Russian.[/QUOTE]
The point is that if you dropped a person off in Kremenchuk they would think they were in a Russian city because all the people not only speak Russian, they have Russian family background and the culture is hard core Russian. All the people I know there have relatives in Russia. More of them speak English than Ukrainian. And as you confirm, the people are more pro Ukraine than pro Russian when it comes to separating from Ukraine. So, your estimate of 70% in favor of separating from Ukraine may reflect the area where you live but it is just a guess. Perhaps in some of the border Oblast your estimates may be accurate, but it is fair to contest that figure as not representative of all the heavily populated ethnic Russian areas.

 

[1776]

These kooks here with their lies about "Russia being innocent" can't explain why Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Holland, the US, Canada, etc are all on one side against Russia being the evil troublemaker in this mess, not the bogus Nazis in Ukraine.

Kooks....please explain how all these different countries are wrong and Russia is right....

 

[Stratford57]

Situation in Ukraine according to Western media.

Meanwhile the real picture looks like following:

We need to use our heads not only for eating, don't you think?

 

[1776]

shithead...there are Nazis in the US, UK, etc.

Situation in Ukraine according to Western media.

Meanwhile the real picture looks like following:

We need to use our heads not only for eating, don't you think?

 

[Stratford57]

Those clowns at the picture above are from "Azov" battalion, which belongs to Ukrainian Army (it's printed on their T-shirts). The emblem of the battalion displays "The Wolf's hook", which is an old Nazi's symbol

 

[Camp]

Those clowns at the picture above are from "Azov" battalion, which belongs to Ukrainian Army (it's printed on their T-shirts). The emblem of the battalion displays "The Wolf's hook", which is an old Nazi's symbol

Azov battalion in not part of the Ukraine Army. They are a volunteer group that numbers between 300 to 500 members. They are frequently used by the Ukraine Army as shock troops and pay a high price for that distinction. The members vow to bring battle to Kyiv when fighting is done in Eastern Ukraine. They are hard core nationalist and racist. Many of them are Russian speaking ethnic Russians who detest Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.

 

[Decus]

These kooks here with their lies about "Russia being innocent" can't explain why Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Holland, the US, Canada, etc are all on one side against Russia being the evil troublemaker in this mess, not the bogus Nazis in Ukraine.

Kooks....please explain how all these different countries are wrong and Russia is right....

Funny but even China is siding with the Ukraine:

"But China has also said it would like to continue to develop "friendly cooperation" with Ukraine and that it respects Ukraine's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity."

China s Xi repeats calls for political solution for Ukraine Reuters

 

[Stratford57]

Those clowns at the picture above are from "Azov" battalion, which belongs to Ukrainian Army (it's printed on their T-shirts). The emblem of the battalion displays "The Wolf's hook", which is an old Nazi's symbol

Azov battalion in not part of the Ukraine Army. They are a volunteer group that numbers between 300 to 500 members. They are frequently used by the Ukraine Army as shock troops and pay a high price for that distinction. The members vow to bring battle to Kyiv when fighting is done in Eastern Ukraine. They are hard core nationalist and racist. Many of them are Russian speaking ethnic Russians who detest Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.

You're right about Azov battalion doesn't really belong to Ukrainian army, but it fights along with it and has the same purposes: exterminating new declared republics in SE (Novorossia) and shelling all the territories with "Grads", "Uragans", etc. And again:
THERE IS NO PUTIN'S INVASION of UKRAINE, unfortunately, we would love to have it.
NSA veterans wrote to A. Merkel: information from NATO about Russian troops invasion into Ukraine is not true.

Ex-NSA Director US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

 

[Decus]

Those clowns at the picture above are from "Azov" battalion, which belongs to Ukrainian Army (it's printed on their T-shirts). The emblem of the battalion displays "The Wolf's hook", which is an old Nazi's symbol

Azov battalion in not part of the Ukraine Army. They are a volunteer group that numbers between 300 to 500 members. They are frequently used by the Ukraine Army as shock troops and pay a high price for that distinction. The members vow to bring battle to Kyiv when fighting is done in Eastern Ukraine. They are hard core nationalist and racist. Many of them are Russian speaking ethnic Russians who detest Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.

You're right about Azov battalion doesn't really belong to Ukrainian army, but it fights along with it and has the same purposes: exterminating new declared republics in SE (Novorossia) and shelling all the territories with "Grads", "Uragans", etc. And again:
THERE IS NO PUTIN'S INVASION of UKRAINE, unfortunately, we would love to have it.
NSA veterans wrote to A. Merkel: information from NATO about Russian troops invasion into Ukraine is not true.

Ex-NSA Director US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

Alex Jones??? Infowars??? Really??? Too funny

 

[Camp]

Those clowns at the picture above are from "Azov" battalion, which belongs to Ukrainian Army (it's printed on their T-shirts). The emblem of the battalion displays "The Wolf's hook", which is an old Nazi's symbol

Azov battalion in not part of the Ukraine Army. They are a volunteer group that numbers between 300 to 500 members. They are frequently used by the Ukraine Army as shock troops and pay a high price for that distinction. The members vow to bring battle to Kyiv when fighting is done in Eastern Ukraine. They are hard core nationalist and racist. Many of them are Russian speaking ethnic Russians who detest Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.

You're right about Azov battalion doesn't really belong to Ukrainian army, but it fights along with it and has the same purposes: exterminating new declared republics in SE (Novorossia) and shelling all the territories with "Grads", "Uragans", etc. And again:
THERE IS NO PUTIN'S INVASION of UKRAINE, unfortunately, we would love to have it.
NSA veterans wrote to A. Merkel: information from NATO about Russian troops invasion into Ukraine is not true.

Ex-NSA Director US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

That letter was written by a guy with a political agenda against President Obama and he is not taken seriously. Perhaps you are not permitted to read about captured Russian soldiers and mothers in Russia protesting their sons coming home in body bags or injured from Ukraine. And perhaps you are not aware of admissions of Russians in Ukraine with the excuse that they are "on leave" and "vacation" and "volunteers".

 

[Stratford57]

Picture to the left:
Chelyabinsk meteorite, just a few seconds of its flight are taped on
hundreds of cell phones,
cameras and video registers.

Picture to the right:
Russian Army several months is invading Ukraine and is impossible to catch for any recording devices.

 

[Camp]

Picture to the left:
Chelyabinsk meteorite, just a few seconds of its flight are taped on
hundreds of cell phones,
cameras and video registers.

Picture to the right:
Russian Army several months is invading Ukraine and is impossible to catch for any recording devices.

Maybe that is because all the photo's show vehicles and uniforms with identification removed before entering Ukraine.