Unions are (basically) Evil

[Muhammed]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

 

[Muhammed]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

 

[Muhammed]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Bullshit.

You are simply delusional.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How on earth are American workers going to compete with their Chinese counterparts if the unions keep fucking things up with their high wages and good benefits?

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Bullshit.

You are simply delusional.

translation: As a liberal I lack the IQ to respond substantively so I'll call names like a small child

 

[Muhammed]

Boycott China.

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Bullshit.

You are simply delusional.

translation: As a liberal I lack the IQ to respond substantively so I'll call names like a small child

I agree that you probably are a bit lacking in the IQ department.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

great then the whole world will be getting rich off cheaper Chinese stuff while we'll be getting poorer buying expensive union junk.

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Bullshit.

You are simply delusional.

translation: As a liberal I lack the IQ to respond substantively so I'll call names like a small child

I agree that you probably are a bit lacking in the IQ department.

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

 

[Muhammed]

Could you explain the logical reasoning that you used to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Bullshit.

You are simply delusional.

translation: As a liberal I lack the IQ to respond substantively so I'll call names like a small child

I agree that you probably are a bit lacking in the IQ department.

dear, if we have to buy expensive union made junk we get poorer while the world gets richer buying cheaper Chinese stuff.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Or are you simply an idiot?

 

[GHook93]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Red herring argument and not a good one.

 

[Bombur]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Red herring argument and not a good one.

Ironically calling it a red herring is a red herring. My argument not so much.

Do you want to fail again?

 

[Bombur]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

 

[imawhosure]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

 

[Bombur]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

So your defense of me accusing you of being ignorant and irrational is to post more ignorant and irrational stuff.

The labor market in general has lost a lot of power over the last 30 years or so and instead of actually trying to address this issue you came up with the grand idea to take more power away from labor.

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

 

[imawhosure]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

So your defense of me accusing you of being ignorant and irrational is to post more ignorant and irrational stuff.

The labor market in general has lost a lot of power over the last 30 years or so and instead of actually trying to address this issue you came up with the grand idea to take more power away from labor.

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

No, the problem with YOU is.............you do not care who you are fleecing to get your way. These deals that are forcing municipalities under were made a long, long, looooong, time ago when the economy was much better. And yet, economists warned that this would happen, never knowing that the economy was going to stink. Their only mistake was that they wrongly assumed it would take a much longer period of time.

If you look back in our history, (and history teaches all things my friend) we have been warned repeatedly that almost everything that is happening now was coming as far as fiscally. (look it up if you doubt my word. If you did not know, you are in for a rude awakening) The only disparity in the predictions was "when." Politicians, then and some today; ignore these dire warnings, and spin "happy" ideas that they can fix it all, and we will feel no pain. Others try to promise more "free stuff" actually making the problem worse, hastening the day of reckoning for us, our children, and grandchildren.

Private sector unions have to deal with reality. If they price themselves out of the market, not only is their product toast, so is the union that represents them. We have seen this happen over, and over, and over, again.

Let me explain something to you as one American to another...........when a private sector union and company comes to an agreement on compensation, the price for the product they produce is set. You and I as Americans in a supposed free country decide if we want to pay that price for that particular product. If we do, the company grows, and the union grows. If you and I decide that the particular product is not "that much better than another product that is cheaper," we as free Americans purchase the lesser product. What happens? Well, the company has to lower prices by cutting into their profit, and lowering compensation to meet the price point that you, and I, are willing to pay! Remember, prices for commodities are level for BOTH companies. If both products are built here, so are taxes and energy costs. And so, you and I, if we are thinking individuals and not ideologues, are going to buy the product that gives us the most BANG for our buck.

Public unions are different though. THERE IS NO COMPETITION, and anytime competition is brought up, the lefties stop it. (think vouchers)

If GM shut down on strike tomorrow and you were going to buy a new car, you could buy from a host of other companies. But, if your school system shut down on strike, with no vouchers, where are you going to send your kids to school? What about the post office? DMV anyone? State road repair? Want your snow plowed? Oh my, how about the water department?

Point is, I betcha you or I could plow snow if we had a truck. Betcha we could hire teachers in a New York minute too. Hey, I got e-mail, and if I want to send a package, Fed Ex it, right? DMV, I could do it e-mail also. Road repair? Hell, we can hire someone to do that. Water department? Privatize it.

So there you go. Why should WE pay waaaaaaay more for something we could get for less, or the same for something we could get better? Why be FORCED to pay more without asking someone else if they could do it for less?

Seems to me, Wisconsin is doing fine, went from the red to the black, lowered taxes in the process, and that is a windfall for every taxpayer. Understand, this is not some illegal person taking a job, this is an American willing to do it for less.

My good man/woman, the REAL definition of freedom is options. The more options you have, the more free you are. If you are FORCED to buy Obamacare, it makes you less free. If you are forced to buy an electric car, eat like a rabbit in school because some intelligentsia thinks it is a good idea, forced to bake a cake when you don't want to, forced to invest in public sector unions, forced to buy something because a centralized government thinks it is a good idea; my friend, you are NOT free. What you are is in soft tyranny.

I have absolutely no hate for unions. My only point is...........let people have options, and let them choose. I promise you that if vouchers for schools were given out, school efficiency would rise 30% in the public sector. Why? Because if they didn't, they would have to close. Is improving our schools, and everything else government union such a bad thing?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

1) liberal unions are a cancer that drove 30 million jobs offshore
2) like a cancer they threaten to come back which is why auto companies now open down south
3) root of problem is liberalism because it is based in pure ignrance.

 

[Bombur]

Any time anyone talks about public employees it becomes very clear why public employees need unions.

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

So your defense of me accusing you of being ignorant and irrational is to post more ignorant and irrational stuff.

The labor market in general has lost a lot of power over the last 30 years or so and instead of actually trying to address this issue you came up with the grand idea to take more power away from labor.

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

No, the problem with YOU is.............you do not care who you are fleecing to get your way. These deals that are forcing municipalities under were made a long, long, looooong, time ago when the economy was much better. And yet, economists warned that this would happen, never knowing that the economy was going to stink. Their only mistake was that they wrongly assumed it would take a much longer period of time.

If you look back in our history, (and history teaches all things my friend) we have been warned repeatedly that almost everything that is happening now was coming as far as fiscally. (look it up if you doubt my word. If you did not know, you are in for a rude awakening) The only disparity in the predictions was "when." Politicians, then and some today; ignore these dire warnings, and spin "happy" ideas that they can fix it all, and we will feel no pain. Others try to promise more "free stuff" actually making the problem worse, hastening the day of reckoning for us, our children, and grandchildren.

Private sector unions have to deal with reality. If they price themselves out of the market, not only is their product toast, so is the union that represents them. We have seen this happen over, and over, and over, again.

Let me explain something to you as one American to another...........when a private sector union and company comes to an agreement on compensation, the price for the product they produce is set. You and I as Americans in a supposed free country decide if we want to pay that price for that particular product. If we do, the company grows, and the union grows. If you and I decide that the particular product is not "that much better than another product that is cheaper," we as free Americans purchase the lesser product. What happens? Well, the company has to lower prices by cutting into their profit, and lowering compensation to meet the price point that you, and I, are willing to pay! Remember, prices for commodities are level for BOTH companies. If both products are built here, so are taxes and energy costs. And so, you and I, if we are thinking individuals and not ideologues, are going to buy the product that gives us the most BANG for our buck.

Public unions are different though. THERE IS NO COMPETITION, and anytime competition is brought up, the lefties stop it. (think vouchers)

If GM shut down on strike tomorrow and you were going to buy a new car, you could buy from a host of other companies. But, if your school system shut down on strike, with no vouchers, where are you going to send your kids to school? What about the post office? DMV anyone? State road repair? Want your snow plowed? Oh my, how about the water department?

Point is, I betcha you or I could plow snow if we had a truck. Betcha we could hire teachers in a New York minute too. Hey, I got e-mail, and if I want to send a package, Fed Ex it, right? DMV, I could do it e-mail also. Road repair? Hell, we can hire someone to do that. Water department? Privatize it.

So there you go. Why should WE pay waaaaaaay more for something we could get for less, or the same for something we could get better? Why be FORCED to pay more without asking someone else if they could do it for less?

Seems to me, Wisconsin is doing fine, went from the red to the black, lowered taxes in the process, and that is a windfall for every taxpayer. Understand, this is not some illegal person taking a job, this is an American willing to do it for less.

My good man/woman, the REAL definition of freedom is options. The more options you have, the more free you are. If you are FORCED to buy Obamacare, it makes you less free. If you are forced to buy an electric car, eat like a rabbit in school because some intelligentsia thinks it is a good idea, forced to bake a cake when you don't want to, forced to invest in public sector unions, forced to buy something because a centralized government thinks it is a good idea; my friend, you are NOT free. What you are is in soft tyranny.

I have absolutely no hate for unions. My only point is...........let people have options, and let them choose. I promise you that if vouchers for schools were given out, school efficiency would rise 30% in the public sector. Why? Because if they didn't, they would have to close. Is improving our schools, and everything else government union such a bad thing?

When unions were more common the economy still grew and people were better off. It was actually a good thing that unions existed as life got better, wages got better, and demand for production increased. A lot of people like you struggle to understand economics because you only try to understand one or maybe two transactions at once. To understand economics you have to understand the system. Labor losing power is a really really big problem and it is the single biggest issue facing the US today. Many of the other problems we see are directly tied to this trend that has been happening for decades.

Public unions are considerably different than private sector unions. Private sector companies have a market that not only keeps wages in check but the choices of the decision makers. If a private sector company treats their employees poorly so they only get bad candidates their company will suffer and go out of business. If a public sector decision maker, ie a politician, makes ignorant and emotional based decision then the work will suffer, the workers will suffer arbitrary decision, and in the end so will the tax payer.

The biggest reason this is even an issue these days is because of bad decisions by politicians and weakness in the labor market has made public employment relatively more attractive in some cases.

 

[imawhosure]

Exactly! How else could they fleece the taxpayer without them? Pathetic, just pathetic.

Let me tell you something there libby, if you are good, or needed, or important, or even a good worker...........you DO NOT NEED a UNION!!!!!! But then again, especially in the public sector..........if you are useless, helpless, and hopeless, you need a union to prop your worthless asses up!

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

So your defense of me accusing you of being ignorant and irrational is to post more ignorant and irrational stuff.

The labor market in general has lost a lot of power over the last 30 years or so and instead of actually trying to address this issue you came up with the grand idea to take more power away from labor.

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

No, the problem with YOU is.............you do not care who you are fleecing to get your way. These deals that are forcing municipalities under were made a long, long, looooong, time ago when the economy was much better. And yet, economists warned that this would happen, never knowing that the economy was going to stink. Their only mistake was that they wrongly assumed it would take a much longer period of time.

If you look back in our history, (and history teaches all things my friend) we have been warned repeatedly that almost everything that is happening now was coming as far as fiscally. (look it up if you doubt my word. If you did not know, you are in for a rude awakening) The only disparity in the predictions was "when." Politicians, then and some today; ignore these dire warnings, and spin "happy" ideas that they can fix it all, and we will feel no pain. Others try to promise more "free stuff" actually making the problem worse, hastening the day of reckoning for us, our children, and grandchildren.

Private sector unions have to deal with reality. If they price themselves out of the market, not only is their product toast, so is the union that represents them. We have seen this happen over, and over, and over, again.

Let me explain something to you as one American to another...........when a private sector union and company comes to an agreement on compensation, the price for the product they produce is set. You and I as Americans in a supposed free country decide if we want to pay that price for that particular product. If we do, the company grows, and the union grows. If you and I decide that the particular product is not "that much better than another product that is cheaper," we as free Americans purchase the lesser product. What happens? Well, the company has to lower prices by cutting into their profit, and lowering compensation to meet the price point that you, and I, are willing to pay! Remember, prices for commodities are level for BOTH companies. If both products are built here, so are taxes and energy costs. And so, you and I, if we are thinking individuals and not ideologues, are going to buy the product that gives us the most BANG for our buck.

Public unions are different though. THERE IS NO COMPETITION, and anytime competition is brought up, the lefties stop it. (think vouchers)

If GM shut down on strike tomorrow and you were going to buy a new car, you could buy from a host of other companies. But, if your school system shut down on strike, with no vouchers, where are you going to send your kids to school? What about the post office? DMV anyone? State road repair? Want your snow plowed? Oh my, how about the water department?

Point is, I betcha you or I could plow snow if we had a truck. Betcha we could hire teachers in a New York minute too. Hey, I got e-mail, and if I want to send a package, Fed Ex it, right? DMV, I could do it e-mail also. Road repair? Hell, we can hire someone to do that. Water department? Privatize it.

So there you go. Why should WE pay waaaaaaay more for something we could get for less, or the same for something we could get better? Why be FORCED to pay more without asking someone else if they could do it for less?

Seems to me, Wisconsin is doing fine, went from the red to the black, lowered taxes in the process, and that is a windfall for every taxpayer. Understand, this is not some illegal person taking a job, this is an American willing to do it for less.

My good man/woman, the REAL definition of freedom is options. The more options you have, the more free you are. If you are FORCED to buy Obamacare, it makes you less free. If you are forced to buy an electric car, eat like a rabbit in school because some intelligentsia thinks it is a good idea, forced to bake a cake when you don't want to, forced to invest in public sector unions, forced to buy something because a centralized government thinks it is a good idea; my friend, you are NOT free. What you are is in soft tyranny.

I have absolutely no hate for unions. My only point is...........let people have options, and let them choose. I promise you that if vouchers for schools were given out, school efficiency would rise 30% in the public sector. Why? Because if they didn't, they would have to close. Is improving our schools, and everything else government union such a bad thing?

When unions were more common the economy still grew and people were better off. It was actually a good thing that unions existed as life got better, wages got better, and demand for production increased. A lot of people like you struggle to understand economics because you only try to understand one or maybe two transactions at once. To understand economics you have to understand the system. Labor losing power is a really really big problem and it is the single biggest issue facing the US today. Many of the other problems we see are directly tied to this trend that has been happening for decades.

Public unions are considerably different than private sector unions. Private sector companies have a market that not only keeps wages in check but the choices of the decision makers. If a private sector company treats their employees poorly so they only get bad candidates their company will suffer and go out of business. If a public sector decision maker, ie a politician, makes ignorant and emotional based decision then the work will suffer, the workers will suffer arbitrary decision, and in the end so will the tax payer.

The biggest reason this is even an issue these days is because of bad decisions by politicians and weakness in the labor market has made public employment relatively more attractive in some cases.

Some of what you have said is true, but not a whole bunch, that is for sure.

1. Private unions did not cause economic slowdowns pre 1970, because we were the only game in town. Who was going to sell anything but bananas to us? Think about that before you answer.

2. Labor losing power is a problem. Why are they losing power? Because there is to much labor available. If more jobs were created, the strength of union, and non-union labor would rise. Who's fault is that? Talk to the IRS and the EPA, then get back with me.

 

[Bombur]

Who told you that load of crap?

You are an example of an ignorant emotional thinker. Public unions are needed to protect them from people like you where decisions are made with little to no connection to reality.

There are problems with unions of course but they are nothing compared to the arbitrary nature of politicians.

That is a ridiculous statement! Public sector unions have their members making 1/3rd more than the private sector, work less time to a retirement, and have health benefits after retirement that virtually nobody in the private sector has.

Now, you tell me why that should be so, when the taxpayer is FORCED to pay for it? The taxpayer, who doesn't have a deal anywhere near as good no less, more than likely.

Oh, I forgot; public sector unions are liberal, and libs can SPIN things anyway they want.

The SPIN, the evil rich aren't paying their fairshare, out of one side of their mouth,.........and out of the other side.........

make the taxpayer who makes LESS than us, with a WORSE deal than us, who has to work LONGER than us, pay the freight for US! We as libs really don't care who/whom we transfer wealth from, rich or poor; as long as the transferred wealth......is well, TRANSFERED to US!

And that my friends, is the liberal mindset in a nutshell, no matter how they try and spin it. Notice, they NEVER, EVER, talk about lowering taxes on anyone to make it fairer; oh no, they only talk about RAISING taxes on someone to make it fairer, lol. All they are doing is trying to get someones money, and eventually it will be your turn, so better wake up and stop them now, with us!!!!!!!

So your defense of me accusing you of being ignorant and irrational is to post more ignorant and irrational stuff.

The labor market in general has lost a lot of power over the last 30 years or so and instead of actually trying to address this issue you came up with the grand idea to take more power away from labor.

The problem isn't labor unions. It is people like you who want to blame everything but the root cause of problems.

No, the problem with YOU is.............you do not care who you are fleecing to get your way. These deals that are forcing municipalities under were made a long, long, looooong, time ago when the economy was much better. And yet, economists warned that this would happen, never knowing that the economy was going to stink. Their only mistake was that they wrongly assumed it would take a much longer period of time.

If you look back in our history, (and history teaches all things my friend) we have been warned repeatedly that almost everything that is happening now was coming as far as fiscally. (look it up if you doubt my word. If you did not know, you are in for a rude awakening) The only disparity in the predictions was "when." Politicians, then and some today; ignore these dire warnings, and spin "happy" ideas that they can fix it all, and we will feel no pain. Others try to promise more "free stuff" actually making the problem worse, hastening the day of reckoning for us, our children, and grandchildren.

Private sector unions have to deal with reality. If they price themselves out of the market, not only is their product toast, so is the union that represents them. We have seen this happen over, and over, and over, again.

Let me explain something to you as one American to another...........when a private sector union and company comes to an agreement on compensation, the price for the product they produce is set. You and I as Americans in a supposed free country decide if we want to pay that price for that particular product. If we do, the company grows, and the union grows. If you and I decide that the particular product is not "that much better than another product that is cheaper," we as free Americans purchase the lesser product. What happens? Well, the company has to lower prices by cutting into their profit, and lowering compensation to meet the price point that you, and I, are willing to pay! Remember, prices for commodities are level for BOTH companies. If both products are built here, so are taxes and energy costs. And so, you and I, if we are thinking individuals and not ideologues, are going to buy the product that gives us the most BANG for our buck.

Public unions are different though. THERE IS NO COMPETITION, and anytime competition is brought up, the lefties stop it. (think vouchers)

If GM shut down on strike tomorrow and you were going to buy a new car, you could buy from a host of other companies. But, if your school system shut down on strike, with no vouchers, where are you going to send your kids to school? What about the post office? DMV anyone? State road repair? Want your snow plowed? Oh my, how about the water department?

Point is, I betcha you or I could plow snow if we had a truck. Betcha we could hire teachers in a New York minute too. Hey, I got e-mail, and if I want to send a package, Fed Ex it, right? DMV, I could do it e-mail also. Road repair? Hell, we can hire someone to do that. Water department? Privatize it.

So there you go. Why should WE pay waaaaaaay more for something we could get for less, or the same for something we could get better? Why be FORCED to pay more without asking someone else if they could do it for less?

Seems to me, Wisconsin is doing fine, went from the red to the black, lowered taxes in the process, and that is a windfall for every taxpayer. Understand, this is not some illegal person taking a job, this is an American willing to do it for less.

My good man/woman, the REAL definition of freedom is options. The more options you have, the more free you are. If you are FORCED to buy Obamacare, it makes you less free. If you are forced to buy an electric car, eat like a rabbit in school because some intelligentsia thinks it is a good idea, forced to bake a cake when you don't want to, forced to invest in public sector unions, forced to buy something because a centralized government thinks it is a good idea; my friend, you are NOT free. What you are is in soft tyranny.

I have absolutely no hate for unions. My only point is...........let people have options, and let them choose. I promise you that if vouchers for schools were given out, school efficiency would rise 30% in the public sector. Why? Because if they didn't, they would have to close. Is improving our schools, and everything else government union such a bad thing?

When unions were more common the economy still grew and people were better off. It was actually a good thing that unions existed as life got better, wages got better, and demand for production increased. A lot of people like you struggle to understand economics because you only try to understand one or maybe two transactions at once. To understand economics you have to understand the system. Labor losing power is a really really big problem and it is the single biggest issue facing the US today. Many of the other problems we see are directly tied to this trend that has been happening for decades.

Public unions are considerably different than private sector unions. Private sector companies have a market that not only keeps wages in check but the choices of the decision makers. If a private sector company treats their employees poorly so they only get bad candidates their company will suffer and go out of business. If a public sector decision maker, ie a politician, makes ignorant and emotional based decision then the work will suffer, the workers will suffer arbitrary decision, and in the end so will the tax payer.

The biggest reason this is even an issue these days is because of bad decisions by politicians and weakness in the labor market has made public employment relatively more attractive in some cases.

Some of what you have said is true, but not a whole bunch, that is for sure.

1. Private unions did not cause economic slowdowns pre 1970, because we were the only game in town. Who was going to sell anything but bananas to us? Think about that before you answer.

2. Labor losing power is a problem. Why are they losing power? Because there is to much labor available. If more jobs were created, the strength of union, and non-union labor would rise. Who's fault is that? Talk to the IRS and the EPA, then get back with me.

Unions lost a lot of power as companies moved south as well. Foreign competition obviously played a part. Obviously unions only have power if they can control the supply.

Labor has lost some power due to our tax structure but IRS doesn't set that, Congress and the President do. There are plenty of nations with environmental standards similar to ours or even more strict that are able to be more competitive than us. If you look at our past and present there are a lot of reasons why we have an EPA. Things like air quality and water quality matter and have a real impact on the quality of life. This impact can be hard to account for in normal market operations.

I am all for revising the tax code to help make our labor more competitive. The problem with the general sentiment of your comments is that they seem to be a race towards the bottom where somehow you think we have to give up our taxing authority and our ability to establish environmental standards just in order to create demand for jobs. This is simply not true.

If you want to complain I would start with our trade relationship with China. There is bi-partisan support for addressing it and there is really no reason not to make it a priority. The problem is it can't be fixed over night and we have to adapt in the meantime.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

2. Labor losing power is a problem[and thats bad????]. .

of course that's stupid. I just bought a leather blazer direct from China for $79 that would have cost me $500 if made here by the lazy freeloader American unions. Americans are getting rich off cheap foreign labor. It's just like we're getting rich off cheap foreign bananas. 10 cents a pound if we buy from SA, $10 a pound if we grow them here. Which is better.

Welcome to your first class in economics.