todays observation: minimum wage and the pencil

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by spectrumc01, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. spectrumc01
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    spectrumc01 I give you....the TRUTH

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    Minimum wage and what it does. Is it everything that it is said to be? Lets put a pencil to it. So lets establish the boundries.

    1. The federal limit is $7.25, but each state can modify that number. In Michigan it is $7.40. For this Observation I will use the Michigan minimum wage, because it's home.
    What is the minimum wage?

    2. For this observation we will use a 40 hour week, every week. Then we will deduct the payroll taxes. Gross wages for the week are $296.00 and after taxes we will bring home $230.31. For a four week month we will take home $921.24. Yearly gross pay is $15,392. Yearly take home pay is $11,976.12. Yearly figures are based on 52 weeks a year.
    Free Online Paycheck Calculator for Calculating Net Take Home Pay

    3. For this observation we are only focusing on the basics.
    - We will use rent, as a minimum wage earner is not likely to own a home. For this particular observation we will use Wayne county Michigan. We will rent a one bedroom appartment. For the month this expense is $610.00 per month. Everything included but the telephone, tv, and internet.
    Average Apartment Rent Reference. Compare reviews & ratings. (go to page 310)

    - Phone is the next expense. we have to include this because you cannot maintain a job without a phone. There are cell phones and land lines, for this observation we will use
    the land line as it is cheaper. Charter communications offers land line for $29.99 a month.
    Charter Deals - Charter Cable TV Internet Phone Package Deals

    4. Transportation to and from work is the next issue. the average travel time in Michigan is 23.9 minutes. United States and States - R0801. Mean Travel Time to Work

    - Now how do we get there, for this observation we will use a bus as owning a car is impossible to maintain on a minimum wage job. The monthly bus ticket will cost $47.00 a month.
    Detroit Department of Transportation Fares | City of Detroit | www.detroitmi.gov

    5. Clothing is an estimated figure and will differ from person to person, and clothing does not fit into a monthly budget. We will add this later.

    6. Food is also an estimated figure and will differ from person to person. We will look at this later. Estimate of $75.00

    7. Personal hygene expenses can be done by month and will also differ from person to person. We will look at this later. Estimate $75.00 (toilet paper,toothpaste, soap, shampoo, dish soap, deodorant, and possibly other expenses).

    Lets total it up now:
    Monthly take home $921.24
    minus the rent - $610.00
    minus the Phone - $29.99
    minus the bus fare - $47.00
    total left $234.25

    Minus food, and personal hygene per month - $150.00 (probably alot more)
    total left $ 84.25

    Expenses not included : Medical insurance, and Renters insurance

    If the government cuts assistance a person making minimum wage will have to live like this. Where do they save money? How hard will it be to cover the basics? Minimum wage is a poverty wage and there are some who wish to see the minimum wage done away with.

    The point of all of this is...is that the American dream is non existant when you reach this low on the ladder. When you are unemployed and a minimum wage job is offered, is it really a help? of coarse it is, it's a job. In reality though looking at the job in question did it really help? The rallying cry of where are the jobs, and create more jobs is not going to fix our problem. We need to rally to the cry of "Where are the careers?" where are the jobs that allow the worker to have a living wage and raise their families? Minimum wage does not allow for that.

    The question is how realistic is minimum wage in providing the solution to those who don't have a job. Once they get their minimum wage job, is it considered a successful fix?
     
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  2. Leweman
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    Leweman Gold Member

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    Better get a better job or ask for a raise.
     
  3. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    While, of course, you totally miss the essential economic points of the debate, such as what percentage of folks are in minimum wage positions, how many are just entering the work force, live at home, or attend school, and how long folks remain in such a position...

    ...and what the ramifications are to the rest of the wage scale...

    ...and what business government has in determining wages....

    ....I love love the work you put into the post. This is the way one should post!
    Bravo.
    Rep on the way!
     
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  4. spectrumc01
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    spectrumc01 I give you....the TRUTH

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    Those are valid points, and further research is necessary. However from the Pencils point of view it doesn't look well for the minimum wage earner, especially if he/she has to take care of more than just themselves.

    Without some kind of assisstance the American Dream is denied them. Without tuition assistance there is no room for school in the budget. Without a better job, any type of bank loan is denied them. Relocation is all but out of the question due to the budget. Medical insurance, or any type of insurance is out of consideration.

    Before we demand cuts to the lower sectors of our population we should probably look to see what it does to the American dream. As it is now we can tell them it is their own fault for the position they are in. If we take away all of the assisstance (the ladder of the American dream) we will no longer be able to say that. Then our stance of personal responsibility is no longer valid.
     
  5. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    Given the choice of with whom I would spend time, it wouldn't be one with whom I agreed.
    How dull would that be???

    That being said...you and I are made for each other!!!!
    The war is on!!

    1. "Without some kind of assisstance the American Dream is denied them."
    Horsefeathers.
    Life is a series of choices. Very few choose to remain at the minimum-wage level. Capitalism teaches about choices, and provides rewards for the correct ones.
    Find out how many remain at the entry level for their entire working lives.

    2. "Without tuition assistance there is no room for school in the budget."
    Great! Another target!
    There should be no 'tuition assistance' of any kind via government. If a charity, community, institution chooses to reward merit and potential- not need!- then so be it.
    Provide proof that you have the potential- proof- as in academic achievement- the opportunity will appear.

    Government largesse is the reason why college cost increases are greater than healthcare increases.

    "Tuition and fees at America's public colleges rose more than 8% this year..."
    Tuition rises 8% at U.S. public colleges

    Further...societal advance is from the top....not from the bottom.

    3. "Without a better job, any type of bank loan is denied them."
    Good.
    Loans should be to those who indicate they can repay same.

    a. Did you know that there are colleges whose theme is to graduate students sans debt
    See College of the Ozarks, for example.

    b. "Advocates argue community colleges serve the needs of society through providing college opportunity to students who otherwise cannot go to college, training and retraining mid level skilled workers, and preserving the academic excellence of four year universities."
    Community colleges in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    4. "Relocation is all but out of the question due to the budget."
    Ohhhhhh.....poor baby, the world doesn't want to bring your dinner right to your house??
    Can you imagine?
    No sympathy here....my family came from the other side of the world.

    5. "Medical insurance, or any type of insurance is out of consideration."
    OMG...
    This great nation provides healthcare to every single person in the nation. Not good enough for you entitlement-babies, huh?

    6. "Before we demand cuts to the lower sectors of our population..."
    Try not to make yourself look as foolish as you are.
    Bet you can't name one single federal program that has been cut.
    Go ahead....
    ...waiting.....

    7. Now, to try to dig you out of the ignorance in which you are so mired, let me suggest a starting point...go to the library and pick up "Scratch Beginnings: Me, $25, and the Search for the American Dream by Adam Shepard

    From Amazon review:

    Adam began his experiment by going to Charleston, South Carolina with $25 and a gym bag with some personal items. The first thing he did was to locate and check in at Crisis Ministries, a homeless shelter. The story of his sign-in and orientation to the shelter alone was fascinating reading. Adam jumped right into it and got a first hand education on life in a shelter. He worked day labor jobs and got other jobs from agencies. He also learned about outreaches from local churches and about how many of the residents benefited from them - and surprisingly, how many of them DIDN'T, largely based on their personal choices. Adam even donated blood.

    ...he conducts a controlled social experiment about living in poverty. In Charleston, Adam set goals to have a furnished apartment, a car and at least $2,500 in savings within a year. To obtain this goal, Adam stated that he would not utilize his previous social network, college education or credit history. He believed that he could pull himself out of his self induced poverty and achieve his version of the American dream with a positive attitude, hard work and determination. At the end of Shepard's experiment, he had saved up almost $5,000, bought a vehicle and leased an apartment.


    8. Start with this premise: nobody owes you anything. You live in the land of opportunity. Stop whining.
     
  6. rightwinger
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    rightwinger Paid Messageboard Poster Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Business makes a fortune off of substandard pay and allowing the government to make up the difference between what they pay and what it costs to live in their area.

    Welfare supports business and allows them to pay substandard pay
     
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  7. spectrumc01
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    spectrumc01 I give you....the TRUTH

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    In the original post it is assumed that the government has already cut all assisstance, you might have missed that.

    1. You are correct about the choices, however it is stated in the original post...
    -"When you are Unemployed and a minimum wage job is offered, is it really a help? of coarse it is, it's a job. In reality though looking at the job in question did it really help? The rallying cry of where are the jobs, and create more jobs is not going to fix our problem. We need to rally to the cry of "Where are the careers?" where are the jobs that allow the worker to have a living wage and raise their families? Minimum wage does not allow for that."-
    We are not talking about the Highschooler working an after school job. We are talking about the OWS protester, who with their college degree, is being asked to work for minimum wage, four+ years ago when they started the journey of an education there were jobs. This is about the eroding job market and asking people to downsize and how far we expect them to downsize, and what that downsizing looks like.

    2. There should be no 'tuition assistance' of any kind via government. If a charity, community, institution chooses to reward merit and potential- not need!- then so be it.
    Provide proof that you have the potential- proof- as in academic achievement- the opportunity will appear.
    - Yet our government, local, federal, and state keep telling us that education is the key to Americas future. If you can't afford it all the proof in academic achievement will do no good. I'm qualified to drive a Lamborgini, that don't mean I can afford one. At what age do we really expect people to be accountable for their choices. Is a freshman in Highschool (14 yrs. old) really accountable for getting the foundation laid for their future?
    I can pick out a few stories of people who beat the odds but we are discussing the majority, and the majority will not be able to afford higher education. My son without assisstance is flipping burgers at McDonalds instead of studying engineering at U of M.

    3. The catch-22 What comes first the chicken or the egg. I can't get the loan for a start up business or an education because I have a minimum wage job. I can't get a better job or start a business without an education or capital.

    a) Ozark state college. Tuition is $24,675.00 No where on their website did it mention any such thing, maybe I can't find it. From what I read they appear to be just like every other college.
    College of the Ozarks in Point Lookout, MO - StateUniversity.com
    b) last look, community colleges are still not free. Without assisstance at minimum wage no chance.

    4. Relocation was mentioned as a response to those who say, "move where the jobs are". I'm fortunate to have a better than minimum wage job and I also work a second job. Owning a home in this market locks me into this particular area, sad but true. If I had to down size to a min job. The situation I would find myself would be dire indeed, and moving would still not be an option. Good for you that your family moved here and not you. Look at your situation and figure out if you could relocate on minimum wage?

    5. Again see the original post. "In the original post it is assumed that the government has already cut all assisstance, you might have missed that."

    6. Again see the original post. "In the original post it is assumed that the government has already cut all assisstance, you might have missed that.

    7. I wish I could have stopped you before you put your foot in your mouth. See point 5 & 6.

    8. Start with these premises...
    1) we are only as strong as our weakest person.
    2) we live in the richest country in the world and in all of history. Why are the basic needs of our citizens not being met?
    - Food, clothing, shelter, a healthy body from which to work with i.e. medical care (not asking for anything but the basics)
     
  8. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1. Can you name the kinds of assistance that the government has cut in your premise?

    Are you claiming that emergency rooms no longer exist?

    2. "Like many undergraduates, students at the College of the Ozarks here work their way through school, though they often do such unconventional campus jobs as milking cows at dawn in the college’s barns and baking fruit breads for sale to donors.

    But what is truly different about Hard Work U. — as the college styles itself — is that all 1,345 students must work 15 hours per week to pay off the entire cost of tuition — $15,900 per year. If they work summers, as one-third are doing this summer, they pay off their $4,400 room and board as well. Work study is not an option as it is at most campuses; it is the college’s raison d’être.

    This is a college that is philosophically opposed to students starting careers with an Ozark mountain of debt — 95 percent graduate debt free — and it believes that students who put sweat equity into their education value it more.

    “I find I take more pride in doing well in class when I know I’ve washed dishes to be able to take that class,” said Sarah Ledoux, a sophomore from Deridder, La."
    Fight Song at Ozarks: Work Hard and Avoid Debt - New York Times

    The Times article was from '07.
    NRonline says it's only partly true...

    3. Did you see the 'Scratch Beginnings' reviews? What assistance did he require from the government?
    Clearly you ignored same, or you wouldn't have written this nonsense: "figure out if you could relocate on minimum wage."
    Yeah, you could ...as he proved.

    4. "keep telling us that education is the key to Americas future."
    No one is denying that...merely that you require assistance to get an education. You want it where you want it, when you want it, on your time line....
    ...grown-ups make adjustments.

    If you can't go to community college on minimum-wage salary...work two jobs. If you can't do it in two years...do it in four.
    Or on line, or study on your own.
    Need a list of success stories of folks who didn't go to college?
    If you choose not to, then it's not that important to you.

    Hand-wringers are a dime a dozen.
    And make minimum wage.
     
  9. spectrumc01
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    spectrumc01 I give you....the TRUTH

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    1. I'm not claiming that emergency rooms don't exist. What I'm claiming is that there are those on the right who would change that if they could. In the premise we are assuming that all assisstance is gone, and if that is the case look at what minimum wage actually is. With MW (minimum wage) a medical bill of that size, the emergency room, would set one back decades if not longer.

    2. Put a pencil to the figures. a student who works 15hrs. for 52 weeks completely pays off a $15,900.00 in one year if the rate of pay is $20.38 per hour (before taxes). How can they afford that milking cows. Perhaps we should all milk cows.

    3. Did we establish that there are the few success stories on both sides of our discussion but we are looking at the average majority. No one said anything about the government paying for relocation. The premise is that there is no government assistance ever for anything.

    4. I'm flexible enough to say, " if your willing to pay for it tell me what I have to do to get it." The premise says that there is no assisstance and how do you make it on MW. If I'm working two jobs at sixty hour a week, where is the time to go to school, the time to do homework. My expierience with labs is you go when they tell you to go and if that is on every Tuesday and Wednesday from 10am to noon what do you tell the employer of your job? When the employer knows, "I can fire him and get another MW employee." Can't afford to go without the job it pays for the basics of living.

    5. If that list contains those that did it without government assistance, and soley 100% on their own, while making MW.

    Those lucky enough to be on top, should count their blessings, not set out to make it harder for the next guy. "Therefore by the grace of God go I"
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  10. Defiant1
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    Defiant1 Gold Member

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    By your example if the person had two minimum wage jobs he would be rolling in dough.

    If the second job was 20 hours per week, living comfortably.
     

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