Today...The Other Holocaust

[PoliticalChic]

1. Not to say that that there were only two holocausts, as human beings have a propensity for slaughter that is truly shocking....

....but, in addition to that perpetrated by the Nazis, the one that begin April 24, 1915 is not only horrifically outstanding.....

...but has yet to be answered for.


2. " Though the term "genocide" was not coined until 1944, acts of genocide have been committed throughout history.... “Genocide,” a term used to describe violence against members of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group with the intent to destroy the entire group, came into general usage only after World War II,..."
What Is Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com

a. " In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,..."
The UN Convention, Article II, Convention on Genocide



The Armenian Holocaust.

3. The Ottoman Turks have at least two characteristics which will resonate with the study of genocide in modern times......they were close allies with Germany....and the were Muslim.

".... there were about 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time of the massacre. By the early 1920s, when the massacres and deportations finally ended, some 1.5 million of Turkey’s Armenians were dead,....


On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began.
That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts.

They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.




.... during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property."
Armenian Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com


April 24.

Are you talking about 1915 - or 2015 ?
Are you talking Turkey or Iraq-Syria ?
Or perhaps Boko-Haram

I have every intention of applying the particular events of 1915 to a broader understanding of history....


As follows:

5. And the mythological basis of the two holocausts....also similar.


"Each of the movements, communist, fascist, Nazi, adopted the same set of rites and symbols to express that ideal: crowds chanting en masse, the monumental architecture, the insistence on unquestioning belief in preposterous doctrines.


There is a people of God, and these are under attack, both from within (the city dwellers of Babylon, who have sunk into abominations) and from without (by the forces of Satan). Resistance will result in the war of Armageddon…with the extermination of the evil ones. But not without horrifying destruction. Then there will be a utopia for a thousand years.


Totalitarianisms coincide....whether the governance is by communists, socialists, fascists, Nazis.....

For every one of 'em there were always subversive dwellers of Babylon, good at trading various commodities,polluting society with their abominations.

Bourgeoisie, kulaks, Freemasons and cosmopolitans, and, always, Jews. "
Berman, "Terror and Liberalism"





Nazis, Islamofascists, communists, socialists, fascists, Progressives, Liberals.....

...in each and every one there is either the active participation in the slaughter of innocent human beings...


...or, as can be seen in the actions of Franklin Roosevelt....a shrug.

 

[Sunni Man]

 

[ClosedCaption]

Turkey seems to brush this off as "shit happens during war"

But it is hard to argue that it was not an organized attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian civilian population

Turkey says get over it...just like other people who commit such atrocities.

Yeah, I'm looking at you America

This is simply a stupid post, and in no way applies to America.

BTW....did you attend government schools?

Funny that that is the same thing the Turkey says about the Armenian Genocide. Never happened!! Get over it! Has nothing to do with us...Those Armenians are liars etc etc

 

[GreenBean]

as can be seen in the actions of Franklin Roosevelt....a shrug.

Don't you know FDR is beyond reproach !? He was a high ranking member of the ruling class social[ist] elite and the father of American Entitlement .

 

[Penelope]

You know the more I read history the more careful I have to be, as much of the history is like the OT (the jewish version and everyone else attacks them),

which is everyone who is not pro Israel are Nazis and the new Hitler. I use to feel so sorry for the Jews, and many of them are so innocent, but not all. I wondered why so much anti Semitism, even to the point , I blamed Rome for a while even being a RC.

Then I read deeper and more into it, and it seem behind the fall of every good nation there were Jews, esp. since the Rothschild's and the Zionist movement and the British empire, and the global Zionist movement of tribal unity of all Jews world wide, its not a religious movement , but a imperialistic movement. They are all over the globe with their numerous non profit organizations, filthy rich Jewish elites in control of America now with their bought politicians and control of the media. Now the goal is to have the leaders in their pockets, like the US, not to kill all of us, because we have to fight their wars, and work for them.

 

[irosie91]

I have often stated that I read the islamo Nazi propaganda pamphlets as a child---
which were scattered by the small town in which my family landed in the early 1950s.
Their claims are so outlandish that at age 10 I wondered how anyone
could be stupid enough to believe them. Over the years I did learn that there
are people who do believe. The claim that Penelope cites is right up there with the
blood in matzoh libel. Anyone interested-----will find this stuff popular in brothels amd methadone clinics------or visit large opened unpoliced "flea markets" out in the
countryside------and check out the places where they sell drugs and unmarked
weapons. As to crypto jews in turkey------nope----there was simply not enough
consistent persecution

You know the more I read history the more careful I have to be, as much of the history is like the OT (the jewish version and everyone else attacks them),

which is everyone who is not pro Israel are Nazis and the new Hitler. I use to feel so sorry for the Jews, and many of them are so innocent, but not all. I wondered why so much anti Semitism, even to the point , I blamed Rome for a while even being a RC.

Then I read deeper and more into it, and it seem behind the fall of every good nation there were Jews, esp. since the Rothschild's and the Zionist movement and the British empire, and the global Zionist movement of tribal unity of all Jews world wide, its not a religious movement , but a imperialistic movement. They are all over the globe with their numerous non profit organizations, filthy rich Jewish elites in control of America now with their bought politicians and control of the media. Now the goal is to have the leaders in their pockets, like the US, not to kill all of us, because we have to fight their wars, and work for them.

the crap above is nothing new-----that Penelope takes credit for FIGURING IT OUT is kinda hilarious------it is the same old islamo Nazi propaganda that was
generated by Nazi pigs since circa 1930 and part and parcel of BAATHIST SHIT--
the arab national socialist movement based on creed of CALIPH ADOLF HITLER----successor to al NABI

 

[irosie91]

not possible-----stinking whore fartimah was born long before the
Armenian genocide

 

[jillian]

and here I a little more info , --- The Islamic Genocide of Christians Past and Present PJ Media ---

there is no "Islamic genocide of Christians".

saying it was simply muslim genocide of Christians is a naïve simplification of the circumstances.

World War I


In 1914, the Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. (At the same time, Ottoman religious authorities declared jihad, or holy war, against all Christians except their allies.) Military leaders began to argue that the Armenians were traitors: If they thought they could win independence if the Allies were victorious, this argument went, the Armenians would be eager to fight for the enemy. As the war intensified, Armenians organized volunteer battalions to help the Russian army fight against the Turks in the Caucasus region. These events, and general Turkish suspicion of the Armenian people, led the Turkish government to push for the “removal” of the Armenians from the war zones along the Eastern Front.


Genocide Begins


On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

Armenian Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com

the Armenian genocide is certainly something deserving of discussion, but not in a wingnutty neocon wackjob fauxnews kind of way.

 

[irosie91]

'There was no Armenian genocide'

Contrary to the Armenian allegations, in fact, there is no consensus among the historians and legal experts to qualify the events of 1915 as “genocide”.

There is a legitimate historical controversy concerning the interpretation of the events in question and most of the scholars who have propounded a contra genocide viewpoint are of the highest calibre and repute, including Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, David Fromkin, Justin McCarthy, Guenther Lewy, Norman Stone, Kamuran Gürün, Michael Gunter, Gilles Veinstein, Andrew Mango, Roderic Davidson, J.C. Hurwitz, William Batkay, Edward J. Erickson and Steven Katz.

This is by no means an exhaustive list. A good number of well-respected scholars recognize the deportation decision in 1915, taken under World War I conditions, as a security measure to stop the Armenians from co-operating with the foreign forces invading Anatolia.

There was no Armenian genocide

somethine like the excuse muhummad al kanzeer invented for his theft of Yathrib--- mass murder, enslavement and child confiscation. Some things never
change. -------the scum of ISIS are justifying their exercise of MUSLIM RIGHTS
over the Yazidis too-------same shit-----it is all in the koran

 

[Penelope]

and here I a little more info , --- The Islamic Genocide of Christians Past and Present PJ Media ---

there is no "Islamic genocide of Christians".

saying it was simply muslim genocide of Christians is a naïve simplification of the circumstances.

World War I


In 1914, the Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. (At the same time, Ottoman religious authorities declared jihad, or holy war, against all Christians except their allies.) Military leaders began to argue that the Armenians were traitors: If they thought they could win independence if the Allies were victorious, this argument went, the Armenians would be eager to fight for the enemy. As the war intensified, Armenians organized volunteer battalions to help the Russian army fight against the Turks in the Caucasus region. These events, and general Turkish suspicion of the Armenian people, led the Turkish government to push for the “removal” of the Armenians from the war zones along the Eastern Front.


Genocide Begins


On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

Armenian Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com

the Armenian genocide is certainly something deserving of discussion, but not in a wingnutty neocon wackjob fauxnews kind of way.

Oh my:
Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II–obsessed with loyalty above all, and infuriated by the nascent Armenian campaign to win basic civil rights–declared that he would solve the “Armenian question” once and for all. “I will soon settle those Armenians,” he told a reporter in 1890

Hitler and him are one and the same. A lot like the "Jewish Question"

 

[irosie91]

good info Steph , thanks for the information !!

I'm not Steph, but thank you.

and here I a little more info , --- The Islamic Genocide of Christians Past and Present PJ Media ---

Maybe try reading up on Emmanuel Carasso,

instead of reading crap from anti Islamic sites.

what for? He didn't go house to house and murder whole Armenian famiiles
by hacking them to pieces and tossing their dead bodies into the river-----
muslims did that. I am a health care worker----long ago when I was
young----my supervisor asked me "have you ever heard of the Armenian genocide" -----I had----my mom told me about it when I was about seven or eight,
-----cut to the chase-----I then attended the death bed of an elderly Armenian
woman who described the events to me-----she saw her family hacked
to death Islamic style-----to the tune of ALLAHUAKBAAAR ---they got
most of the village-----heads bobbed around in the reddened stream ---by
the hundreds. The lady knew me to be a jew------she actually sobbed
with "joy"-----I was not so joyful----her heart did not have long to go------
but she was eager to tell me------deathbed statements are so reliable that
they are significant in courts of law

 

[irosie91]

1. Not to say that that there were only two holocausts, as human beings have a propensity for slaughter that is truly shocking....

....but, in addition to that perpetrated by the Nazis, the one that begin April 24, 1915 is not only horrifically outstanding.....

...but has yet to be answered for.


2. " Though the term "genocide" was not coined until 1944, acts of genocide have been committed throughout history.... “Genocide,” a term used to describe violence against members of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group with the intent to destroy the entire group, came into general usage only after World War II,..."
What Is Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com

a. " In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,..."
The UN Convention, Article II, Convention on Genocide



The Armenian Holocaust.

3. The Ottoman Turks have at least two characteristics which will resonate with the study of genocide in modern times......they were close allies with Germany....and the were Muslim.

".... there were about 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time of the massacre. By the early 1920s, when the massacres and deportations finally ended, some 1.5 million of Turkey’s Armenians were dead,....


On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began.
That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts.

They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.




.... during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property."
Armenian Genocide - Facts Summary - HISTORY.com


April 24.

Are you talking about 1915 - or 2015 ?
Are you talking Turkey or Iraq-Syria ?
Or perhaps Boko-Haram

I have every intention of applying the particular events of 1915 to a broader understanding of history....


As follows:

5. And the mythological basis of the two holocausts....also similar.


"Each of the movements, communist, fascist, Nazi, adopted the same set of rites and symbols to express that ideal: crowds chanting en masse, the monumental architecture, the insistence on unquestioning belief in preposterous doctrines.


There is a people of God, and these are under attack, both from within (the city dwellers of Babylon, who have sunk into abominations) and from without (by the forces of Satan). Resistance will result in the war of Armageddon…with the extermination of the evil ones. But not without horrifying destruction. Then there will be a utopia for a thousand years.


Totalitarianisms coincide....whether the governance is by communists, socialists, fascists, Nazis.....

For every one of 'em there were always subversive dwellers of Babylon, good at trading various commodities,polluting society with their abominations.

Bourgeoisie, kulaks, Freemasons and cosmopolitans, and, always, Jews. "
Berman, "Terror and Liberalism"





Nazis, Islamofascists, communists, socialists, fascists, Progressives, Liberals.....

...in each and every one there is either the active participation in the slaughter of innocent human beings...


...or, as can be seen in the actions of Franklin Roosevelt....a shrug.

the invariably common feature is TOTALITARIAN UTOPIAN IDEOLOGY----
like, for instance---CALIPHATE<<<just one example
others are----COMMUNIST UTOPIA as per stalin ,, pol pot etc
and german reich as per adolf and nation socialist Arabism as
per Gamal Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussein and the alawite/Shiite
moiety as pre papa and baby assad and not FDR who never
promised a UTOPIA FOR THE WORLD

 

[PoliticalChic]

Turkey seems to brush this off as "shit happens during war"

But it is hard to argue that it was not an organized attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian civilian population

Turkey says get over it...just like other people who commit such atrocities.

Yeah, I'm looking at you America

This is simply a stupid post, and in no way applies to America.

BTW....did you attend government schools?

Funny that that is the same thing the Turkey says about the Armenian Genocide. Never happened!! Get over it! Has nothing to do with us...Those Armenians are liars etc etc

I can see why you don't want to admit that your only taste of education have been via government schooling.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Turkey seems to brush this off as "shit happens during war"

But it is hard to argue that it was not an organized attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian civilian population

Turkey says get over it...just like other people who commit such atrocities.

Yeah, I'm looking at you America

This is simply a stupid post, and in no way applies to America.

BTW....did you attend government schools?

Funny that that is the same thing the Turkey says about the Armenian Genocide. Never happened!! Get over it! Has nothing to do with us...Those Armenians are liars etc etc

I can see why you don't want to admit that your only taste of education have been via government schooling.

I can see why you are changing the subject

 

[irosie91]

Turkey seems to brush this off as "shit happens during war"

But it is hard to argue that it was not an organized attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian civilian population

Turkey says get over it...just like other people who commit such atrocities.

Yeah, I'm looking at you America

This is simply a stupid post, and in no way applies to America.

BTW....did you attend government schools?

Funny that that is the same thing the Turkey says about the Armenian Genocide. Never happened!! Get over it! Has nothing to do with us...Those Armenians are liars etc etc

I can see why you don't want to admit that your only taste of education have been via government schooling.

what means "government schooling"

 

[PoliticalChic]

6. " Coming to power in a peaceful revolution in 1908, the Young Turk party “Ittihat ve Terraki” (Unity and Progress) originally promoted a modern, secular government. But shortly after, a counterrevolutionary coup d’etat ... and the radicals took over.


a. On April 24, 1915, hundreds of Armenian intellectuals and leaders in Constantinople were arrested and deported to the interior of the country, and most of them were murdered afterwards.

At this point, most male Armenians, who were already serving in the Turkish Army, were suddenly forced to do slave labour or were massacred.



Beginning in May 1915, nearly the entire remaining Armenian population (of 2.1 million before the War) was deported, province by province, town by town, and village by village. On foot, with almost no bread and no water, old men, women, children ... were sent to Der Zor in the Syrian desert.



On those death marches, hundreds of thousands died of exhaustion, starvation or diseases. Those who survived those miserable condition were forced into concentration camps. They starved there or died from cholera, typhoid and dysentery during the following months. Others became victims of massacres or were sent even deeper into the desert where local tribesman slaughtered them." ttp://MercatorNet What Pius XII learned from the other holocaust

 

[PoliticalChic]

Turkey seems to brush this off as "shit happens during war"

But it is hard to argue that it was not an organized attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian civilian population

Turkey says get over it...just like other people who commit such atrocities.

Yeah, I'm looking at you America

This is simply a stupid post, and in no way applies to America.

BTW....did you attend government schools?

Funny that that is the same thing the Turkey says about the Armenian Genocide. Never happened!! Get over it! Has nothing to do with us...Those Armenians are liars etc etc

I can see why you don't want to admit that your only taste of education have been via government schooling.

I can see why you are changing the subject

So....you're begging not to be held responsible for the absurd and sociopathic comment
"....people who commit such atrocities.
Yeah, I'm looking at you America."


Beg a little more and I may forgive you.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"After the World War I, the Armenian allegations were investigated between 1919-1922 as part of a legal process against the Ottoman Officials. 144 high ranking officials were accused of “massacres” and deported for trial by Britain to the island of Malta. The information which led to the trial was mainly given by the local Armenians and the Armenian Patriarchate. While the deportees were interned on Malta, The British occupation forces in Istanbul, with absolute power and authority, looked everywhere to find evidence in order to incriminate the deportees. At the conclusion of the investigation, no evidence was found that could corroborate the Armenian claims."

There was no Armenian genocide

Hmmmm......

Well, Sunni......if 'There was no Armenian genocide,'....

...what is your explanation for '2,000 pages, entitled “persecuzioni contra gli Armeni”, in both the Archives of the Apostolic Delegation in Constantinople and the Secretary of State in the Vatican Secret Archives'....



7. The author of the Mercator Net article on the Armenian genocide goes on to reference "... about 2,000 pages, entitled “persecuzioni contra gli Armeni”, in both the Archives of the Apostolic Delegation in Constantinople and the Secretary of State in the Vatican Secret Archives for an upcoming book...[including] a diplomatic intervention to prevent further massacres after the Russian retreat from northeastern Turkey following the Brest-Litovsk treaty.

..... mid-June 1915, Msgr. Dolci learned about “rumors of massacres”, as he wrote in a telegraph to the Holy See. About a week later he received confirmation that indeed a “persecution” with the purpose “to remove the element of the Christian Armenians from the entire province” took place. "
MercatorNet What Pius XII learned from the other holocaust

 

[PoliticalChic]

8. "After learning the details of this massacre, Dolci sent a written protest to the Grand Vizier, requesting the immediate stop of those deadly deportations, at least of the Armenian Catholics.He did not even receive a reply.

After his original protest was ignored, he formed an “détente againt the persecution”with the Austrian ambassador Janos Count Pallavicini, the German Consul General Heinrich Mordtmann and US Ambassador Henry Morgenthau. They approached the head of Sunni Islam in Turkey, the “Sheikh ül-Islam”, as well as Talaat Bey and Enver Pasha at a occasion of a Government reception on September 2.

....Catholic Armenians were offered a chance to be spared if they converted to Islam; .... The Holy Father acted and sent a hand-written message to Sultan Mehmet V, appealing to his “high-hearted generosity” and requesting his compassion for the innocent Armenians.

Although US Ambassador Morgenthau and the Armenian Orthodox Patriarch Zaven I Der Yeghiayan applauded the Papal initiative, it had failed..... the influence of the Apostolic delegate in Constantinople was nearly nullified afterwards." MercatorNet What Pius XII learned from the other holocaust


The point that German historian,Michael Hesemann is making is clear......but bizarre

He will be using the Vatican involvement in 1915 to explain the Vatican's inactions in Nazi Germany.

....well, you'll see next..

 

[PoliticalChic]

Although the historian who wrote this description of the massacre of the Armenians by the Muslim Turks describes it clearly.....his motive is not clear until this point.

Here, he brings up the role of Eugenio Pacelli, the man who would soon become Pope, during the Armenian holocaust.



9. Eugenio Pacelli (who became Pius XII in 1939) has long been vilified as "Hitler's Pope," remaining silent in the face of the Nazi Holocaust. In the above quoted article, Michael Hesemann veers in an unusual defense of Pius's actions....or inaction.


a. " Pius XII has long been vilified as "Hitler's pope", accused of failing publicly to condemn the genocide of Europe's Jews. Now a British author has unearthed extensive material that Vatican insiders believe will restore his reputation, revealing the part that he played in saving lives and opposing nazism." Vatican hopes secret files exonerate Hitler s pope World news The Guardian



10. According to the author, Michael Hesemann, Pacelli was part of the attempt to end 'the earlier holocaust,' the Turkish genocide of Armenians.....and saw the Vatican's attempts as ineffective...." the Papal initiative, it had failed..... the influence of the Apostolic delegate in Constantinople was nearly nullified afterwards."

...and that was the lesson he took from the Vatican's attempts: don't attempt to resist the atrocity!

That's this historian's conclusion: the Vatican learned not to condemn genocide????