CDZ Thinking about retirement and retirement age(s)

[usmbguest5318]

Thread Rubric:

As one is dying from the day one is born, similarly, many people, from the moment they commence their careers, find themselves working toward the day they retire from the workforce. I find that to be a somewhat odd notion for among the people in my family and social cohort, while retiring from a given job happens, retiring such that one no longer performs work for which they receive compensation is not something folks much do before sometime in their eighties.

Indeed, some like a close friend's father don't retire until well after the age when most folks think they should be retired. Plenty of notable figures work well past seventy years-old, and by outward appearances, generally, money isn't a primary driver to their doing so. For example:

• Carl Bernstein (73)
• Jane Fonda (80)
• Lily Tomlin (78)
• Myriad members of Congress, both now and in the past
• Pat Buchanan (79)
• Carmen Dell'Orefice (86)
• Jack Nicholson (80)
• Several CEOs
• God only knows how many successful business owners

I suppose my own circumstances will evolve similarly to my father's and others in my social cohort insofar as I cannot imagine doing anything that isn't accompanied by a large degree of decision-making discretion for I'm not a person suited to asking "how high" when someone to me says "jump." Dad worked until he was "retirement age" and, after about a year of two of having no more work to do than piddling around the house and such, transformed what had merely been an investing activity into a thriving business. He worked at that for some 20 more years before finally deciding to become fully retired. I know the only reason he worked for another 20 years was that he was bored not working and Momma was tired of his having no work to do. [1] His returning to the workforce, so to speak, resolved problems they both were having in the wake of his first retirement.

​

Thread Questions:

• Why do you think so many Americans predispose themselves to the notion of retiring as early in life as it seems they do?
• What would you think of the government increasing the "full benefit" age for Social Security to 75?
  • What We Can Learn From Norway About Retirement
    
  • National insurance retirement pensions
    
  • Which are the best countries in the world to grow old in?

Note:

1. Anecdote about one of the most hilarious conversations I've ever had with my mother:
   Momma was glad he took up a new career. Before he'd done so, she called halfway round the planet to solicit for my input and help finding something for Dad to do, and upon my return persuading him to do it, lest he make her balmy and drive her to bedlam. I told her to try lube and Viagra. She said they'd already been down that road. LOL It was then that I realized karma is real. LOL

Some people get slapped pretty hard by disease or some infirmity so I assume we are leaving them out of the main topic but I agree its best for everyone to find a purpose.

-Your point is well made and I agree. My elders who are still working or volunteering part time in their 70's are considerably more happy than those who are not. In general I don't think full time 40 hour a week work is in their best interest but to each their own if they desire.

-It is time we change the Social Security math again and if it makes it easier for a 70 year old to work part time and draw their SS that is fine with me.

-How hard do we want to encourage companies to provide reasonable pensions? This is a scary age of competing globally with countries Trump would probably call a **** **** but none the less we do need to be careful not to encourage those with no feelings or ties to America to build their factories overseas. Through tax breaks is my first idea.

-Something culturally should change. Consider my bad brother in law. A few years back I encouraged the man to learn to type so he could do something besides manual labor. The man is a horse still and just can't see living past when he can't pick up wheels and tires for a living. Not that I don't sneak away from my monitors to help unload trucks whenever I can, it still feels good. I just worry about when his back gives out or something and I feel a certain amount of worship for Archie Bunker and against fuzzy math, to explain myself poorly.

Some people get slapped pretty hard by disease or some infirmity so I assume we are leaving them out of the main topic

Correct. I definitely have not created this thread to delve into the "rabbit hole" of all the myriad exceptions to the norm of retirement behavior/situations that may exist.

Your point is well made

Thank you.

we do need to be careful not to encourage those with no feelings or ties to America to build their factories overseas. Through tax breaks is my first idea.

Well, I don't precisely agree with all of that, but "all of that" is a wholly different discussion topic than is the one for which this thread was created.

I feel a certain amount of worship for Archie Bunker and against fuzzy math, to explain myself poorly.

My world -- academic career, personal life, and professional life -- is full of math, so I don't really understand just what you mean. To me, "fuzzy math" refers to set theory because, of course, as a business consultant, I've had to use it when clients engaged me/my firm to provide certain quantitative analysis and models.

• Applying Fuzzy Logic to Risk Assessment and Decision-Making
  
• Application of Fuzzy Logic in Determining Cost of Capital for the Capital Budgeting Process
• Economic Modelling and Theory of Fuzzy Sets: Applications in Macroeconomic Planning withing the Process of transition
  
• Economic Applications of Fuzzy Subset Theory and Fuzzy Logic: A Brief Survey
  
• Fuzzy Logic with Engineering Applications
• Metamathematics of Fuzzy Logic

I don't think "fuzzy math/logic" is what you had in mind because it's nothing "Archie" would ever have discussed or opined upon....but maybe it is what you have in mind....

 

[Toronado3800]

Thread Rubric:

As one is dying from the day one is born, similarly, many people, from the moment they commence their careers, find themselves working toward the day they retire from the workforce. I find that to be a somewhat odd notion for among the people in my family and social cohort, while retiring from a given job happens, retiring such that one no longer performs work for which they receive compensation is not something folks much do before sometime in their eighties.

Indeed, some like a close friend's father don't retire until well after the age when most folks think they should be retired. Plenty of notable figures work well past seventy years-old, and by outward appearances, generally, money isn't a primary driver to their doing so. For example:

• Carl Bernstein (73)
• Jane Fonda (80)
• Lily Tomlin (78)
• Myriad members of Congress, both now and in the past
• Pat Buchanan (79)
• Carmen Dell'Orefice (86)
• Jack Nicholson (80)
• Several CEOs
• God only knows how many successful business owners

I suppose my own circumstances will evolve similarly to my father's and others in my social cohort insofar as I cannot imagine doing anything that isn't accompanied by a large degree of decision-making discretion for I'm not a person suited to asking "how high" when someone to me says "jump." Dad worked until he was "retirement age" and, after about a year of two of having no more work to do than piddling around the house and such, transformed what had merely been an investing activity into a thriving business. He worked at that for some 20 more years before finally deciding to become fully retired. I know the only reason he worked for another 20 years was that he was bored not working and Momma was tired of his having no work to do. [1] His returning to the workforce, so to speak, resolved problems they both were having in the wake of his first retirement.

​

Thread Questions:

• Why do you think so many Americans predispose themselves to the notion of retiring as early in life as it seems they do?
• What would you think of the government increasing the "full benefit" age for Social Security to 75?
  • What We Can Learn From Norway About Retirement
    
  • National insurance retirement pensions
    
  • Which are the best countries in the world to grow old in?

Note:

1. Anecdote about one of the most hilarious conversations I've ever had with my mother:
   Momma was glad he took up a new career. Before he'd done so, she called halfway round the planet to solicit for my input and help finding something for Dad to do, and upon my return persuading him to do it, lest he make her balmy and drive her to bedlam. I told her to try lube and Viagra. She said they'd already been down that road. LOL It was then that I realized karma is real. LOL

Some people get slapped pretty hard by disease or some infirmity so I assume we are leaving them out of the main topic but I agree its best for everyone to find a purpose.

-Your point is well made and I agree. My elders who are still working or volunteering part time in their 70's are considerably more happy than those who are not. In general I don't think full time 40 hour a week work is in their best interest but to each their own if they desire.

-It is time we change the Social Security math again and if it makes it easier for a 70 year old to work part time and draw their SS that is fine with me.

-How hard do we want to encourage companies to provide reasonable pensions? This is a scary age of competing globally with countries Trump would probably call a **** **** but none the less we do need to be careful not to encourage those with no feelings or ties to America to build their factories overseas. Through tax breaks is my first idea.

-Something culturally should change. Consider my bad brother in law. A few years back I encouraged the man to learn to type so he could do something besides manual labor. The man is a horse still and just can't see living past when he can't pick up wheels and tires for a living. Not that I don't sneak away from my monitors to help unload trucks whenever I can, it still feels good. I just worry about when his back gives out or something and I feel a certain amount of worship for Archie Bunker and against fuzzy math, to explain myself poorly.

Some people get slapped pretty hard by disease or some infirmity so I assume we are leaving them out of the main topic

Correct. I definitely have not created this thread to delve into the "rabbit hole" of all the myriad exceptions to the norm of retirement behavior/situations that may exist.

Your point is well made

Thank you.

we do need to be careful not to encourage those with no feelings or ties to America to build their factories overseas. Through tax breaks is my first idea.

Well, I don't precisely agree with all of that, but "all of that" is a wholly different discussion topic than is the one for which this thread was created.

I feel a certain amount of worship for Archie Bunker and against fuzzy math, to explain myself poorly.

My world -- academic career, personal life, and professional life -- is full of math, so I don't really understand just what you mean. To me, "fuzzy math" refers to set theory because, of course, as a business consultant, I've had to use it when clients engaged me/my firm to provide certain quantitative analysis and models.

• Applying Fuzzy Logic to Risk Assessment and Decision-Making
  
• Application of Fuzzy Logic in Determining Cost of Capital for the Capital Budgeting Process
• Economic Modelling and Theory of Fuzzy Sets: Applications in Macroeconomic Planning withing the Process of transition
  
• Economic Applications of Fuzzy Subset Theory and Fuzzy Logic: A Brief Survey
  
• Fuzzy Logic with Engineering Applications
• Metamathematics of Fuzzy Logic

I don't think "fuzzy math/logic" is what you had in mind because it's nothing "Archie" would ever have discussed or opined upon....but maybe it is what you have in mind....

Now that is some deep reading I wasn't prepared for in the links!

Fuzzy math is a reference to the 2000 debate where the "W" declared Gore was using fuzzy math in reference to healthcare spending.

Bringing 'fuzzy math' into focus

Fuzzy math (politics) - Wikipedia

When I saw that I was shocked it worked as a retort and a good number of my.....less able to use Microsoft Excel friends.... used the term a couple times afterwards. I also thought I noticed some push back against math and academics afterwards. It fit into my whole theory that Archie Bunker and Al Bundy somehow accidentally became roll models for middle age men who seemingly no longer wanted to calculate gear ratios or tire height with me.

 

[initforme]

I retired at 58.... I am now 82 and my only regret is not retiring earlier. I do not miss the stress nor getting up at 5 am not fighting traffic. Not to mention nobody is ever going to thank you for busting your butt. I highly recommend retiring as early as possible and in the end no matter what you do with a few exceptions all your hard work in reality doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other....when you realize that fact you decide to retire and enjoy your life rather than waste it away working.

 

[MarathonMike]

I retired at 58.... I am now 82 and my only regret is not retiring earlier. I do not miss the stress nor getting up at 5 am not fighting traffic. Not to mention nobody is ever going to thank you for busting your butt. I highly recommend retiring as early as possible and in the end no matter what you do with a few exceptions all your hard work in reality doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other....when you realize that fact you decide to retire and enjoy your life rather than waste it away working.

Congrats on your long and happy retirement

 

[usmbguest5318]

I retired at 58.... I am now 82 and my only regret is not retiring earlier. I do not miss the stress nor getting up at 5 am not fighting traffic. Not to mention nobody is ever going to thank you for busting your butt. I highly recommend retiring as early as possible and in the end no matter what you do with a few exceptions all your hard work in reality doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other....when you realize that fact you decide to retire and enjoy your life rather than waste it away working.

I don't concur with most of your above stated stances; however, I'm glad you are satisfied with your decision to retire at 58 and that you've enjoyed your post-retirement years.

 

[LoneLaugher]

What a pleasant thread. I'm so impressed with everyone's admirable work ethic. We've so many smart and successful
people posting here.

Congratulations to all who have posted here. You've all done so well!

 

[DGS49]

If you OWN a modest home, and have no debt, it might be possible to live on SS. But I wouldn't want to try it.

But SS was never intended as a full pension. It was initially a few dollars a month - less than $500 in today's money. But when we boomers began earning the Big Bux, and paying SS taxes, Congress decided to take advantage and start buying Geezer votes with promises of dramatic increases SS payments. But still not quite enough to live on.

When you are working, you ask yourself if you have any reason to retire. But after you retire, you realize that the correct question is, is there any reason to keep working?

You might "love" your job, but the fact is that you only have a limited number of HEALTHY years when you can enjoy your retirement. This is where Government workers are kicking our asses. They are happily retired for 20 or more years (50-70), while most of us are lucky to get ten.

Bottom line: Retire if you can. Establishing a good lifestyle in retirement can be a challenge, but it's better than working even while you are figuring it out.

 

[initforme]

What is there not to concur with?

 

[usmbguest5318]

If you OWN a modest home, and have no debt, it might be possible to live on SS. But I wouldn't want to try it.

But SS was never intended as a full pension. It was initially a few dollars a month - less than $500 in today's money. But when we boomers began earning the Big Bux, and paying SS taxes, Congress decided to take advantage and start buying Geezer votes with promises of dramatic increases SS payments. But still not quite enough to live on.

When you are working, you ask yourself if you have any reason to retire. But after you retire, you realize that the correct question is, is there any reason to keep working?

You might "love" your job, but the fact is that you only have a limited number of HEALTHY years when you can enjoy your retirement. This is where Government workers are kicking our asses. They are happily retired for 20 or more years (50-70), while most of us are lucky to get ten.

Bottom line: Retire if you can. Establishing a good lifestyle in retirement can be a challenge, but it's better than working even while you are figuring it out.

If you OWN a modest home, and have no debt, it might be possible to live on SS. But I wouldn't want to try it.

Well, whether a retiree can do so is a function of the cost of living where one lives, one's financial obligations, and the sum of one's monthly SS payment. The maximum SS payment is $2,639 (~$31K/year).

For an retiree having no recurring financial obligations beyond food, transportation, utilities, and taxes (all forms), $2,639 is definitely enough to live on, even in a relatively expensive area like the D.C. Metropolitan/exurban one. It doesn't provide for a lavish lifestyle, and one probably isn't going to save much money at that income level, but at that income level, a retiree such as one you described is not consigned to an impoverished lifestyle.

Thinkin about my parent's lifestyle once they hit their eighties, were one to convert from lavish to modest the aspects of it, but for their property taxes and household upkeep costs (they never moved from the six bedroom house in which they raised my siblings and me) there's no way in hell they couldn't have lived on $31K/year. They weren't entertaining as they once did. They weren't updating their wardrobes. They weren't traveling. They ate "regular" food, and Momma cooked until she couldn't, at which point, were she of modest means, she'd have had to move to assisted living or move to a nursing home, which, if need be, Medicare would have covered. They were content with their car (an early-2000s car) because there was nothing wrong with it. Momma "got over" her desire to routinely redecorate/update/add to the household decor. And so on, and so on.....

I could be mistaken, but from what I can tell, most of the costs people incur in living their lives derives from their social lives. If one lives long enough, one's social life will necessarily pare back dramatically because one outlives one's friends. At that point, one's social life and activities revolve almost exclusively around one's family, and mostly one's children. And let's be honest....How much must one, at that point in one's life, spend on one's children? Wasn't the spending one did to raise them enough? If anything, they should be spending on one's behalf, not the other way round.

For example, I can't tell you the last iime Momma spent her own money on anything like garments, household accessories, and other miscellany; when she needs or wants any such things, one of us kids buys it for her. It's not that she lacks the money for stuff; it's that it's a major ordeal for her to go get it... she's in her 90s; she's somewhat incontinent, she's become willful and cantankerous due to having dementia, she has to use a wheelchair, etc.

Momma doesn't want to run errands nor has she the energy to do it -- she moves about the main floor of her home and, weather permitting wheels into her garden, largely so she can take a nap in a different place -- and that's just as well because on the rare occasion she does go somewhere for "grins," it becomes at least a four-hour affair to take her take her there and return home. Momma is "older than the Internet" as she says; the point being that she's not an Internet user. The kind of things whereby she could call a store and they'd send a salesperson with it to her home aren't the kinds of things she wants/buys these days. Indeed, so old is Momma that I'm not sure the people whom she once would have called are still alive, much less still working there.) I haven't looked at the numbers to know for sure, but I would wager she saves a larger share of her income, probably something around 70%, now than she and Dad did when he was working.

The point of the preceding paragraph is that although Momma is a woman of means, her lifestyle since her 80s has been that of a person of modest means. It became that way for no reason other than that she just grew out of particularly wanting or needing to do things that consume a lot of money. That's just something that happens....but inasmuch as it does happen, one can definitely live on SS if one's payment is enough. What's at issue is whether it happening is wrought by one's having no means other than SS or whether it happens as a matter of time's passage. What I mean is that, by my observation, living on a very modest income can be difficult if one retires before one's mid-seventies, but shortly after one's mid-seventies, it becomes increasingly easy to do so unless one is so blessed that nature doesn't put the kibosh, as it were, on one's lifestyle.