They Don't Care Who Has A Gun

[M14 Shooter]

Without universal background checks, you are guaranteeing that bad guys will more easily be able to get guns.
The NRA opposes universal background checks, and want's everybody (even crooks) to be easily able to buy from a private seller with no checks of any kind.
You figure it out.

You post this as if it hasn't already been addressed and negated.

Please inform me of all the requirements that the NRA supports concerning gun sales other than from licensed dealers. How are they trying to keep thugs from buying any guns from an unlicensed seller?

I've explained to you why the NRA opposes UBC. Their argument is sound and has not as yet been addressed by you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

What part of my post isn't true?

This part
"I know you hate the fact that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

Jillian does not hate that fact? Are you sure?

 

[The Rabbi]

They dont. BUt maybe they dont care because they are prohibited themselves.

I'm guessing that the large majority of people selling used guns probably aren't prohibited. Do you have any reason to believe they are?

Doesnt matter. A large majority of criminals buy their guns from other criminals who in turn stole them from honest citizns. That is in fact the main way guns get into criminals' hands. Which law do you propose that will stop that from occurring?

You got anything to back that up?

Sure.
Bureau of Justice Statistics BJS - Firearms Stolen during Household Burglaries and Other Property Crimes 2005-2010

Good information there about guns being stolen, and how many burglaries and thefts involving stolen firearms get reported, but nothing about that being the main way bad guys get their guns. You got anything else?

What do you suppose happens to those guns? They get thrown in the river?
Really this isnt that difficult.

 

[The Rabbi]

No, you ar wrong. This is because you are stupid.
Laws against rape and murder are effective at their purpose. Because their purpose is not to prevent the act but to punish those who commit it. Unlike gun laws whose purpose is to prevent something that criminals will not be deterred by anyway.
Tell me, what harm is caused by a criminal carrying a firearm? The answer is none btw.

So laws against rape and murder have nothing to do with preventing either? That's just stupid.

The purpose is not to prevent them but to punish those who commit them.

Rabbi.......You lost this one. You can go on forever repeating the same silly things with different words, but you still lost this one. Walk away, get something to drink, and come back refreshed with a different subject. Perhaps something about birther claims, or black helicopters, but this one is in the can.

I see you are so desperate you are declaring victory, unable to counter my facts and logic.

I'm not declaring anything, other than to say none of your claims stand up to scrutiny. If you want to be just another crazy teabagger who is reduced to calling names when their silly claims don't hold water go ahead. I personally thought you were better than that, but it's your choice.

LOL!
You tell me I lost this one and then tell me you're not declaring anything. Seriously? Do you even understand what you post? My claims are 100% factual, my arguments 100% true. I have spent nearly a decade in the firearms business as a licensee with a retail storefront. I have seen dozens of prohibited people with guns they got who knows where. I have had guns stolen from my shop and ended up in other people's hands when they were recovered.
You argument and statements are nonsense. They are complete ignorance devoid of any experience. You merely sling slogans and hope someone believes them.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually, mills,. lathes, and the like are more and more common in home shops. Heck, you can get them-new-for under $700. People aren't machining their own receivers because it's just easier to buy one.
Of course...you can buy an "80% lower" for under $50 and finish it yourself.

Communists seek to crush civil rights. But democrats are stupid, what they do fails every time it's tried.
Bulldog dreams of the old USSR, but it will never happen. The technology that the authoritarians praise for tracking and monitoring the subjects, also makes it impossible to keep arms from the enslaved populace.

you don't have any right to unfettered ownership of weapons.

I know you hate the fact that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
But, it -is- a fact, no matter how butt-hurt you are about it.

Again, another teabagger who is totally convinced of something that just isn't true. If I believed half the crap you think I believe, I wouldn't like me either. There is a huge difference between wanting reasonable gun controls and wanting to eliminate the Second Amendment.

Whoa, what about his statement do you believe is not true? Be specific here.

 

[The Rabbi]

I know you hate the fact that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
But, it -is- a fact, no matter how butt-hurt you are about it.

Again, another teabagger who is totally convinced of something that just isn't true

What part of my post isn't true?

This part
"I know you hate the fact that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

That was the Supreme Court's finding in Heller. Are you saying you know the law better than the Supreme Court?

 

[Flash]

[

LOL!
You tell me I lost this one and then tell me you're not declaring anything. Seriously? Do you even understand what you post? My claims are 100% factual, my arguments 100% true. I have spent nearly a decade in the firearms business as a licensee with a retail storefront. I have seen dozens of prohibited people with guns they got who knows where. I have had guns stolen from my shop and ended up in other people's hands when they were recovered.
You argument and statements are nonsense. They are complete ignorance devoid of any experience. You merely sling slogans and hope someone believes them.

These nitwit Libtards know as good as you and I that if you increase the gun laws and take the right to keep and bear arms away from Americans that the crooks will still have guns. That is a no brainer.

Their agenda has never been safety or "protect the children" or whatever bullshit they say.. They simply don't like the idea of Americans having the strength to challenge the government. They hate the idea of "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". They don't want the state to be free. They want the filthy ass governemnt to be completely in charge.

Every Left country in the world has made sure that their subjects had their firearms taken away. America is no different.

 

[Carib Gyal]

[

LOL!
You tell me I lost this one and then tell me you're not declaring anything. Seriously? Do you even understand what you post? My claims are 100% factual, my arguments 100% true. I have spent nearly a decade in the firearms business as a licensee with a retail storefront. I have seen dozens of prohibited people with guns they got who knows where. I have had guns stolen from my shop and ended up in other people's hands when they were recovered.
You argument and statements are nonsense. They are complete ignorance devoid of any experience. You merely sling slogans and hope someone believes them.

These nitwit Libtards know as good as you and I that if you increase the gun laws and take the right to keep and bear arms away from Americans that the crooks will still have guns. That is a no brainer.

Their agenda has never been safety or "protect the children" or whatever bullshit they say.. They simply don't like the idea of Americans having the strength to challenge the government. They hate the idea of "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". They don't want the state to be free. They want the filthy ass governemnt to be completely in charge.

Every Left country in the world has made sure that their subjects had their firearms taken away. America is no different.

All they'll do is make criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens if they do. Personally, I would have a gun, anyway. Not really a 'cold, dead hands' thing, more like a 'don't want to be powerless to protect myself' kind of thing.

 

[The Rabbi]

[

LOL!
You tell me I lost this one and then tell me you're not declaring anything. Seriously? Do you even understand what you post? My claims are 100% factual, my arguments 100% true. I have spent nearly a decade in the firearms business as a licensee with a retail storefront. I have seen dozens of prohibited people with guns they got who knows where. I have had guns stolen from my shop and ended up in other people's hands when they were recovered.
You argument and statements are nonsense. They are complete ignorance devoid of any experience. You merely sling slogans and hope someone believes them.

These nitwit Libtards know as good as you and I that if you increase the gun laws and take the right to keep and bear arms away from Americans that the crooks will still have guns. That is a no brainer.

Their agenda has never been safety or "protect the children" or whatever bullshit they say.. They simply don't like the idea of Americans having the strength to challenge the government. They hate the idea of "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". They don't want the state to be free. They want the filthy ass governemnt to be completely in charge.

Every Left country in the world has made sure that their subjects had their firearms taken away. America is no different.

All they'll do is make criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens if they do. Personally, I would have a gun, anyway. Not really a 'cold, dead hands' thing, more like a 'don't want to be powerless to protect myself' kind of thing.

When Canada tried a long gun registry they had to abandon it because there was such civil disobedience. The US would be worse.

 

[FA_Q2]

Really? You can't figure it out?

He stops being a good guy the second he shoots the clerk.

What special kind of retard do you have to be to think the NRA would consider a someone who shoots a clerk a good guy?

Without universal background checks, you are guaranteeing that bad guys will more easily be able to get guns.

The NRA opposes universal background checks, and want's everybody (even crooks) to be easily able to buy from a private seller with no checks of any kind.

You figure it out.

Fallacy. Even with universal background checks bad guys will get guns.
What do you think? Bad guys will be deterred by a background check? No one will sell to a bad guy without a bvackground check? Think, man! Think!!

Sure, they will be deterred. Background checks will eliminate the possibility of many guns from their purchase. I never said it would make it impossible, just that it would be much harder.

That assertion is not backed up by facts.

The fist problem that you have failed to address (and has been pointed out many times) is that the law is completely unenforceable. Tell me, how is a law that CANNOT BE ENFORCED supposed to make it more difficult for criminals to buy guns?

Second, there is no data showing that further gun control measures will do squat to reduce crime or homicides. What is the ultimate goal here? If it is safety then gun control falls flat on its face.

The ultimate goal of any gun control measure must be to reduce crime. This is most easily measured in homicides as that is the most prevalent target of gun control:

England outright banned guns and the effect on homicides? Zero. That is the base problem that you have with gun control laws - if you are willing to commit homicide or any other major offense then the extra law that says you cant have a gun is utterly meaningless - period. This has flushed out a myriad of places all across the globe as well as here. All your assertions are NOT backed up by any hard data.

And England is moving for more restrictive laws - if it doesn't work we can always try more right? That is exactly what gun control advocates want here. We have a shit ton of gun control laws on the books and all you can come up with is more that is not effective in the first place.

If outright banning does nothing, what makes you think that background checks that are completely unenforceable will be effective?

So you don't think that reducing the places a thug can buy a gun will have any effect on how many guns they can buy? I have nothing to say to that other than I disagree.

Of course you have nothing to say but to blandly disagree because there is no hard data backing that belief up. There is, unfortunately for your position, AMPLE data backing my claim up.

The real question is why you refuse to accept the data shows your position is blatantly incorrect.

 

[FA_Q2]

Fallacy. Even with universal background checks bad guys will get guns.
What do you think? Bad guys will be deterred by a background check? No one will sell to a bad guy without a bvackground check? Think, man! Think!!

so there shouldn't be any laws because some bad guys do bad things?

okie dokie.

Uh? Typical response from the retarded poseur of this board.
If a law is ineffective at its purpose it shouldnt exist.

I still gotta ask about your thoughts on rape or murder. Obviously, those laws aren't 100% effective, so should we just take them off the books?

Straw man AND argumentum ad absurdum, two fallacies in a single statement. No one, anywhere, is demanding that laws be 100 percent effective. That is simply asinine. Further, what makes you think that rape and murder laws are not effective? They are very effective. Very few people murder or rape and those that do are removed from the streets and the rest of us are safer for it.

Gun control laws, on the other hand? Not effective at all. There is no data showing that further gun control laws will prevent anything whatsoever. That, the ENTIRE basis of the gun control argument, is an assertion based on nothing whatsoever. That is where all your arguments fail.

My God......One teabagger looked at his kids debate handbook, so now all of them think they are experts on debate techniques. Just because there is a chorus of gun nuts shouting "IT WON"T WORK" doesn't mean there is no reason to support reasonable laws for gun control. Ninety-two percent of voters, including 92 percent of gun owners and 86 percent of Republicans, support background checks prior to all gun sales, according to a poll from Quinnipiac University.
Poll 92 percent of gun owners support universal background checks TheHill
The NRA's death grip on right wing politicians is the only thing preventing a law that the vast majority of Americans want.

And then you deflect.

Its not a matter of being an 'expert.' It is a matter of you creating a straw man argument that never was in contention, absurdly claiming that a law must stop 100 percent of crime to be effective and then completely ignoring both of those details while jumping on a poll. A poll that does not actually address anything that was stated at all.


Edit: it is also worth noting that, as your argument has fallen apart, you need to result to name calling now. I am not a 'teabagger' nor do I think that you even understand what they tea party is.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It is illegal to sell a firearm to a person that is prohibited (convicted felon, people under indictment for a felony, people who are addicted to illegal drugs, people deemed to have mental impairments, people in the country illegally or anyone that has a dishonorable discharge from military service). A person convicted of doing so could face five to ten years in prison and huge fines.

And honest person would not make such a sale.

You are absolutely right, but without some sort of background check, how will they know?

It's called common sense. Don't sell to strangers. No honest person would risk prison to sell a firearm.

Lots of honest people sell to strangers. How are they risking prison just by selling a gun to someone who you have no way of knowing shouldn't be able to buy one?

Lots of people do? Then it should be easy for you to provide evidence of that.

I'm sure its' the case. I've sold plenty of personal guns to complete strangers. And bought plenty. And I know lots of people who do similar.
But so what? Criminals get guns largely from other criminals.

You're not very bright. Those guns are registered to you, if one is ever linked to a crime it is you they will be looking for. If it is found you sold to someone prohibited from owning a firearm you will be prosecuted and risk prison time and heavy fines. Criminals get guns largely by stealing them.

 

[Contumacious]

This is the NRA mentality. They don't care who has guns.

US appeals court deems gun law unconstitutional Fox News US appeals court deems gun law unconstitutional

s.”

Cuban born Judge Danny Julian Boggs remembers that in Cuba and the former USSR they classified those who oppose the revolution as mentally ill in order to incarcerate them and deprive them of their rights.

Excellent ruling judge Boggs.




.

Cuban born Judge Danny Julian Boggs remembers that in Cuba and the former USSR they classified those who oppose the revolution as mentally ill in order to incarcerate them and deprive them of their rights.

Excellent ruling judge Boggs.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It is illegal to sell a firearm to a person that is prohibited (convicted felon, people under indictment for a felony, people who are addicted to illegal drugs, people deemed to have mental impairments, people in the country illegally or anyone that has a dishonorable discharge from military service). A person convicted of doing so could face five to ten years in prison and huge fines.

And honest person would not make such a sale.

You are absolutely right, but without some sort of background check, how will they know?

It's called common sense. Don't sell to strangers. No honest person would risk prison to sell a firearm.

Lots of honest people sell to strangers. How are they risking prison just by selling a gun to someone who you have no way of knowing shouldn't be able to buy one?

Lots of people do? Then it should be easy for you to provide evidence of that.

No problem.
ARMSLIST - Firearms Classifieds

Did you read the "term of conditions"? No. you didn't.

Big FAIL!!!!

 

[Flash]

You're not very bright. Those guns are registered to you, if one is ever linked to a crime it is you they will be looking for. If it is found you sold to someone prohibited from owning a firearm you will be prosecuted and risk prison time and heavy fines. Criminals get guns largely by stealing them.

He is a lot brighter than you are.

Very few guns in the US are "registered". Only in a few of the commie states is what you would call registration. Since Florida is a free state none of my 50 are and I can sell them to whoever I want to as private sales as long as I am not doing it as a business. That is called freedom.

If I bought one of my firearms from a LLC dealer then there is a record of who the dealer sold it to but it stops there. I can sell my firearm and there is no requirement to keep any record or provide any information about the sale to the authorities.

If you are going to make comments on this you really need to know what you are talking about. That way you won't look so dumb.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

You're not very bright. Those guns are registered to you, if one is ever linked to a crime it is you they will be looking for. If it is found you sold to someone prohibited from owning a firearm you will be prosecuted and risk prison time and heavy fines. Criminals get guns largely by stealing them.

He is a lot brighter than you are.

Very few guns in the US are "registered". Only in a few of the commie states is what you would call registration. Since Florida is a free state none of my 50 are and I can sell them to whoever I want to as private sales as long as I am not doing it as a business. That is called freedom.

If I bought one of my firearms from a LLC dealer then there is a record of who the dealer sold it to but it stops there. I can sell my firearm and there is no requirement to keep any record or provide any information about the sale to the authorities.

If you are going to make comments on this you really need to know what you are talking about. That way you won't look so dumb.

Bullshit. All guns purchased by a licensed dealer is in effect registered per Federal Law. Yes you can sell a firearm to whoever you want but there is a paper trail that leads to YOU and when is investigated by law enforcement is will come back to you. You moron. And no one ever said such a private sale had to be reported to the authorities. But it is illegal even in Florida to sell to a minor, a felon or a non-resident. So if you are stupid enough to sell to a anyone prohibited from legally owning a firearm, you are part of the problem.

I've co-owned a gun store for over twenty years and I currently have my FFL.

Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence Gun Law Information Experts

 

[Flash]

You're not very bright. Those guns are registered to you, if one is ever linked to a crime it is you they will be looking for. If it is found you sold to someone prohibited from owning a firearm you will be prosecuted and risk prison time and heavy fines. Criminals get guns largely by stealing them.

He is a lot brighter than you are.

Very few guns in the US are "registered". Only in a few of the commie states is what you would call registration. Since Florida is a free state none of my 50 are and I can sell them to whoever I want to as private sales as long as I am not doing it as a business. That is called freedom.

If I bought one of my firearms from a LLC dealer then there is a record of who the dealer sold it to but it stops there. I can sell my firearm and there is no requirement to keep any record or provide any information about the sale to the authorities.

If you are going to make comments on this you really need to know what you are talking about. That way you won't look so dumb.

Bullshit. All guns purchased by a licensed dealer is in effect registered per Federal Law. Yes you can sell a firearm to whoever you want but there is a paper trail that leads to YOU and when is investigated by law enforcement is will come back to you. You moron. And no one ever said such a private sale had to be reported to the authorities. But it is illegal even in Florida to sell to a minor, a felon or a non-resident. So if you are stupid enough to sell to a anyone prohibited from legally owning a firearm, you are part of the problem.

I've co-owned a gun store for over twenty years and I currently have my FFL.

Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence Gun Law Information Experts

The paper trail stops at you. There is absolutely no requirement for you to do any background check on anybody you sell a firearm to (at least in Florida and other free states I lived in). There is no procedure or documentation required to assure that the person you sell the firearm to is not a felon or non resident. Of course if you sold to a 10 year kid it would be hard to prove that you didn't know it was a minor but otherwise you are home free.

Your assertion that you will be prosecuted if you ever sell to a felon is simply not true. The prosecution would have to prove that you knowingly knew the buyer was a felon. The defense "he told me he wasn't" for the typical gunshow or private transfer type sales has been held up in the courts as being adequate.

Back about 20 years ago I bought a S&W from a dealer. A couple of years later I sold it to Mr. "I have no idea who" at the Tampa gunshow. About five years later I was contacted by the police because the firearm had been used in a crime. After telling the police how I sold it they were satisfied.

 

[Contumacious]

You're not very bright. Those guns are registered to you, if one is ever linked to a crime it is you they will be looking for. If it is found you sold to someone prohibited from owning a firearm you will be prosecuted and risk prison time and heavy fines. Criminals get guns largely by stealing them.

He is a lot brighter than you are.

Very few guns in the US are "registered". Only in a few of the commie states is what you would call registration. Since Florida is a free state none of my 50 are and I can sell them to whoever I want to as private sales as long as I am not doing it as a business. That is called freedom.

If I bought one of my firearms from a LLC dealer then there is a record of who the dealer sold it to but it stops there. I can sell my firearm and there is no requirement to keep any record or provide any information about the sale to the authorities.

If you are going to make comments on this you really need to know what you are talking about. That way you won't look so dumb.

Bullshit. All guns purchased by a licensed dealer is in effect registered per Federal Law. Yes you can sell a firearm to whoever you want but there is a paper trail that leads to YOU and when is investigated by law enforcement is will come back to you. You moron. And no one ever said such a private sale had to be reported to the authorities. But it is illegal even in Florida to sell to a minor, a felon or a non-resident. So if you are stupid enough to sell to a anyone prohibited from legally owning a firearm, you are part of the problem.

I've co-owned a gun store for over twenty years and I currently have my FFL.

Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence Gun Law Information Experts

Are you not concerned about the federal government which is PROHIBITED BY LAW- THE 2A - from preventing Americans from owning firearms??!?!?!?!?

The solution is homemade "ghost" guns.


.

 

[Papageorgio]

Btw the 1968 gun law has been around for over 40 years now it is deemed unconstitutional?

No one had challenged the law. Are you going to tell me a person who 28 years ago, going through a divorce and going to a mental facility is branded for life? Seems pretty poorly written law.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I fucking agree I hate that law, especially for women, who got traumatized by a ex or a stalker, I have been trying to find for a few years on and off if there was a major challenge to that law, but to no avail.