The Romans killed Jesus Christ not the Jews

[SSDD]

I am unsure why it matters who killed him. His death and resurrection were inevitable. It is why he came here. The people who killed him, whoever they were, were unable to do otherwise. They were also part of a plan.

That's kind of a messed up plan. God puts a meaningless curse on humanity because a woman listened to a talking snake and ate fruit from a magic tree, and then had to incarnate himself as a man to get himself killed?

We don't have to understand why such a thing may have been necessary...we just have to accept it as true and say thank you for doing it.

 

[USAF 2023]

It was the Romans, and the followers are the Roman church. There are christians in the roman church but also some who are not.

According to the Bible, the Roman governor sought to release Jesus. He was pushed to allow them to have him crucified by the Jews. In fact, the Romans never messed with Jesus his entire 33 years. It was the Jews who even caught Jesus. The Jews tried Jesus in their courts. The Jews sentenced him to death. The Jews who chained him, and dragged him to Pilot to be executed.

So, not to sure about your claims Mort.

Kill ONE Jesus and they never let you forget it!

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

.

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

confusing christianity with the events of the 1st century does not mitigate the crime committed. by the jews and their benefactors. silencing a voice of liberation.

Please tell us what “ Crime” the Jews did. Even IF Jesus did exist ( Which we do not believe) wasn’t he put on earth by his Father for that purpose?
Even if he wasn’t , didn’t your “ Savior” teach forgiveness?

 

[alang1216]

It was the Romans, and the followers are the Roman church. There are christians in the roman church but also some who are not.

According to the Bible, the Roman governor sought to release Jesus. He was pushed to allow them to have him crucified by the Jews. In fact, the Romans never messed with Jesus his entire 33 years. It was the Jews who even caught Jesus. The Jews tried Jesus in their courts. The Jews sentenced him to death. The Jews who chained him, and dragged him to Pilot to be executed.

So, not to sure about your claims Mort.

Kill ONE Jesus and they never let you forget it!

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

.

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

confusing christianity with the events of the 1st century does not mitigate the crime committed. by the jews and their benefactors. silencing a voice of liberation.

Please tell us what “ Crime” the Jews did. Even IF Jesus did exist ( Which we do not believe) wasn’t he put on earth by his Father for that purpose?
Even if he wasn’t , didn’t your “ Savior” teach forgiveness?

Christians are just jealous of Jews. God judges Christians while Jews judge God.

 

[Andylusion]

LOL.... Jesus never existed ^_^ .... pagans say the darnedest things.

Okay. Was Jesus born in 4 BCE like the Gospel of Matthew says, or in 6 AD, like the Gospel of Luke says.

Because they can't both be true if he was a real person.

Was his Grandfather named Jacob as Matthew says, or Heli like Luke says.

Was his family from Nazareth, like Luke says, and just came down to Bethlehem for a Census, or were they from Bethlehem and fled to Nazareth to escape the wrath of Herod the Great, like Matthew says.

And this is just in the first few chapters of the two gospels that actually discuss Jesus early life.

The funny thing is, as much as we use "Gospel Truth" as a phrase, the Gospels contradict themselves and each other..

Contradictions about Jesus

Is there a Bible contradiction in Luke 2:2?

There was a Latin inscription found in 1764, suggesting he was governor twice.

I can, and have in the past gone through hundreds of such supposed non-contradictions.... I guess I can again, but you'll just deny it, so why bother.

I guess just post whatever pseudo contradiction you want me to blow up, and I'll do it.

 

[Andylusion]

All the birth narratives are fine. All the books of the Bible, are complimentary to each other. So, not sure what you mean by this.

They're fine except they're not history. The story of the Roman census is a prime example:

• there is no record of such a census in the Roman archives?
• why would Rome care where your ancestors came from 1,000 years ago if they were interested in taxes today?
  
• how many would know their family history that well (I don't know where my ancestors lived even 250 years ago)?
• which lineage would you trace back?
• why would you have to travel to the place, why not just say what it was?

If you asked me, the story was created because Jesus, known to come from Nazareth, had to be born in the ancestral home of David so he could be claimed to fulfill a scriptural prophesy. There are other examples just like this one. I believe there is a prophesy of the messiah going to Egypt so one birth narrative has that while the other does not.

At the time the NT was being codified, Judaism was already an ancient religion and, as such, given respect. Connecting Jesus to the Jews was a plus. Trying to convince the Jews that Jesus was the messiah was also a positive so he had to be shown to fulfill OT prophesies. History was secondary to theology.

The purpose of the census was for taxation, not because they cared where your ancestors were from.
Moreover, we already know for a fact that they had multiple such census, the most documented one being in Egypt.

Further, as for why they wanted people to go to their birth place, I have no idea. Smarter people than me, will have to answer that.

As for the specific census mentioned in the birth narrative, it is clearly more likely to be true, than untrue.

We know that there were multiple censuses. Egypt had record of more than a couple. Given this was an established method for raising funds in the Roman empire, it is more likely than unlikely that when the Romans gained control of the area of Israel, that they would establish that same method for generating funds.

So while there is no direct specific evidence of this exact census, we have more reason to believe it happened, than reason to believe it didn't.

 

[alang1216]

All the birth narratives are fine. All the books of the Bible, are complimentary to each other. So, not sure what you mean by this.

They're fine except they're not history. The story of the Roman census is a prime example:

• there is no record of such a census in the Roman archives?
• why would Rome care where your ancestors came from 1,000 years ago if they were interested in taxes today?
  
• how many would know their family history that well (I don't know where my ancestors lived even 250 years ago)?
• which lineage would you trace back?
• why would you have to travel to the place, why not just say what it was?

If you asked me, the story was created because Jesus, known to come from Nazareth, had to be born in the ancestral home of David so he could be claimed to fulfill a scriptural prophesy. There are other examples just like this one. I believe there is a prophesy of the messiah going to Egypt so one birth narrative has that while the other does not.

At the time the NT was being codified, Judaism was already an ancient religion and, as such, given respect. Connecting Jesus to the Jews was a plus. Trying to convince the Jews that Jesus was the messiah was also a positive so he had to be shown to fulfill OT prophesies. History was secondary to theology.

The purpose of the census was for taxation, not because they cared where your ancestors were from.
Moreover, we already know for a fact that they had multiple such census, the most documented one being in Egypt.

Further, as for why they wanted people to go to their birth place, I have no idea. Smarter people than me, will have to answer that.

As for the specific census mentioned in the birth narrative, it is clearly more likely to be true, than untrue.

We know that there were multiple censuses. Egypt had record of more than a couple. Given this was an established method for raising funds in the Roman empire, it is more likely than unlikely that when the Romans gained control of the area of Israel, that they would establish that same method for generating funds.

So while there is no direct specific evidence of this exact census, we have more reason to believe it happened, than reason to believe it didn't.

There were almost certainly periodic censuses but no Roman census ever required anyone to move as that would defeat the goal of the census. I don't know how smart you are but I can pretty much guarantee that you won't find anyone with a better explanation than mine.

 

[BreezeWood]

It was the Romans, and the followers are the Roman church. There are christians in the roman church but also some who are not.

According to the Bible, the Roman governor sought to release Jesus. He was pushed to allow them to have him crucified by the Jews. In fact, the Romans never messed with Jesus his entire 33 years. It was the Jews who even caught Jesus. The Jews tried Jesus in their courts. The Jews sentenced him to death. The Jews who chained him, and dragged him to Pilot to be executed.

So, not to sure about your claims Mort.

Kill ONE Jesus and they never let you forget it!

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

.

" Christians" believe that GOD sent his son down to die for our sins. In other words; it was " fate" That being the case even IF the Jewish people did kill " Jesus" why all the hate?

confusing christianity with the events of the 1st century does not mitigate the crime committed. by the jews and their benefactors. silencing a voice of liberation.

Please tell us what “ Crime” the Jews did. Even IF Jesus did exist ( Which we do not believe) wasn’t he put on earth by his Father for that purpose?
Even if he wasn’t , didn’t your “ Savior” teach forgiveness?

.

Please tell us what “ Crime” the Jews did. Even IF Jesus did exist ( Which we do not believe) wasn’t he put on earth by his Father for that purpose?
Even if he wasn’t , didn’t your “ Savior” teach forgiveness?

not everyone reconciles the forged 4th century christian bible for their religious endeavors.

what “ Crime” the Jews did.

does not mitigate the crime committed.

two different tenses.

the crime committed was the crucifixion without justification precipitated by the jewish inquisition for that purpose and alleviation for their beneficiaries, the romans - no there is no forgiveness for injustice, only its reconciliation.

they "crossed" one of their own ...

 

[JoeB131]

We don't have to understand why such a thing may have been necessary...we just have to accept it as true and say thank you for doing it.

Or we can realize this is a derivative myth.

The problem with most of the bible stories is that they are just rehashing of other mythology's stories.

 

[fncceo]

The problem with most of the bible stories is that they are just rehashing of other mythology's stories.

Man! I HATE it when they do that ...

 

[JoeB131]

There was a Latin inscription found in 1764, suggesting he was governor twice.

The Romans didn't let the same guy serve as governor twice. Besides we know where Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was in 4 BCE. He was in Galatia in Asia Minor. More to the point, there would be no reason for him to conduct a census of Judea in 4 BCE, it was still an independent kingdom at that point. Rome did not annex Judea until 6 AD, when Herod Archleus proved to be an inept client.

I can, and have in the past gone through hundreds of such supposed non-contradictions.... I guess I can again, but you'll just deny it, so why bother.

I guess just post whatever pseudo contradiction you want me to blow up, and I'll do it.

If it falls into the category, then you really would be wasting my time.

Occam's razor. Matthew and Luke were plagarizing from Mark's Gospel, decided to fill in the blanks with oral traditions or just making stuff up. They may have also cribbed off of Josephus.

 

[SSDD]

We don't have to understand why such a thing may have been necessary...we just have to accept it as true and say thank you for doing it.

Or we can realize this is a derivative myth.

The problem with most of the bible stories is that they are just rehashing of other mythology's stories.

We were given free will to do as we please. One way results in judgement...one way frees us from judgement.

 

[JoeB131]

We were given free will to do as we please. One way results in judgement...one way frees us from judgement.

again, you religionists have nothing but excuses............

The real problem... if you actually read the Bible, God comes off as kind of a prick.

 

[SSDD]

We were given free will to do as we please. One way results in judgement...one way frees us from judgement.

again, you religionists have nothing but excuses............

The real problem... if you actually read the Bible, God comes off as kind of a prick.

Children often have no conception of why their parents must do what they do and believe them to be terrible for it. How much greater the incomprehension of why our creator must do as he does? Our parent's rarely stop loving us because we dislike them in our lack of understanding...and our creator loves us more than any parent regardless of what we do,

Again...we don't have to understand the why...we just have to say thank you.

 

[JoeB131]

Children often have no conception of why their parents must do what they do and believe them to be terrible for it. How much greater the incomprehension of why our creator must do as he does? Our parent's rarely stop loving us because we dislike them in our lack of understanding...and our creator loves us more than any parent regardless of what we do,

Again...we don't have to understand the why...we just have to say thank you.

As Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the bible I don't understand that concern me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well.

The Old Testament God is pretty much a prick, because "God" to the Hebrews represented every force of nature they didn't understand. Locust ate all your crops? Must be God. A plague broke out? Must be God. Your enemy conquered you and raped the shit out of your women? We must have made God angry.

The New Testament God is a little less of a prick, because the people who made him up were exposed to Greek Philosophy.

I don't look at this slaughterhouse of a world and think there's a God who "loves" us.

 

[SSDD]

As Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the bible I don't understand that concern me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well.

Imagining that we can understand, much less understand perfectly a divine plan illustrates a marked misunderstanding...or an outrageous arrogance.

The Old Testament God is pretty much a prick, because "God" to the Hebrews represented every force of nature they didn't understand. Locust ate all your crops? Must be God. A plague broke out? Must be God. Your enemy conquered you and raped the shit out of your women? We must have made God angry.

After we fell, it seems that there were only two things to be considered...leave us to our disobedience, and the consequences of our free will, or initiate a plan by which we might be rescued from the mess we made of ourselves. While I am by no means a Bible scholar, the Old Testament to me seems to be the story of God establishing a blood line and lineage spanning hundreds of generations which would result in a single individual in which, as you described, God could incarnate himself into in order to do the rescuing.

If your options are to give up your most precious creation to your enemy, or do what is necessary to provide a means by which your creation may be rescued from your enemy, which do you do? And does it really matter whether or not those who don't even know that they are in need of rescuing know why, or what you are doing or not?

I don't look at this slaughterhouse of a world and think there's a God who "loves" us.

That, I suppose is one way that a mortal creature might look at the world. The flaw with with that view is that we are immortal creatures. We are going to continue on after we are finished on this plane...Should we worry about how badly things are on a plane in which the enemy is present, and has a degree of control, or should we concern ourselves what comes after....and will last forever, and in the process, try to make this world a better place?

 

[The Irish Ram]

It was the Romans, and the followers are the Roman church. There are christians in the roman church but also some who are not.

It was the Jews, Mort. Read the gospel of Nicodemus. He formally recorded everything for Pilate and the Temple, from Christ's arrest to His crucifixion. Rome was not pleased with the Temple priests when Pilate heard Christ was back!

 

[james bond]

That's kind of a messed up plan. God puts a meaningless curse on humanity because a woman listened to a talking snake and ate fruit from a magic tree, and then had to incarnate himself as a man to get himself killed?

It's not a "kind of a messed up plan" nor "meaningless curse," but a violation of God's one law. We all must die now instead of having perfect bodies, life spirit, and souls. It also meant that the domain of the Earth went from Adam to the being behind the serpent -- Satan. Thus, Satan is "god of the world and the prince of the power of the air" now and we have to go through Armageddon. See, I understand these things from reading the Bible while you got it messed up.

Adam and Eve may have been young and not have had much experience. They did not last very long living in paradise. Maybe Adam only had a chance to name all the animals.

Anyway, God provided a negative test for Adam. Today, he provides a positive test -- John 3:16 for all of us.

 

[BreezeWood]

Again...we don't have to understand the why...we just have to say thank you.

you obviously are not why the events of the the 1st century unfolded to their final conclusion.

Rome was not pleased with the Temple priests when Pilate heard Christ was back!

really, the jews would have worried about rome after what they did were that true ... or to this day are pleased, without remorse for their contrived result.

 

[Mortimer]

It was the Romans, and the followers are the Roman church. There are christians in the roman church but also some who are not.

It was the Jews, Mort. Read the gospel of Nicodemus. He formally recorded everything for Pilate and the Temple, from Christ's arrest to His crucifixion. Rome was not pleased with the Temple priests when Pilate heard Christ was back!

Ok for me you are a kind christian woman and well read into the scriptures so I believe you.

 

[JoeB131]

Imagining that we can understand, much less understand perfectly a divine plan illustrates a marked misunderstanding...or an outrageous arrogance.

Or there really isn't a God. We know that there were large periods of history where people didn't believe in Yahweh. Today, half the world's population doesn't believe in him.

After we fell, it seems that there were only two things to be considered...leave us to our disobedience, and the consequences of our free will, or initiate a plan by which we might be rescued from the mess we made of ourselves. While I am by no means a Bible scholar, the Old Testament to me seems to be the story of God establishing a blood line and lineage spanning hundreds of generations which would result in a single individual in which, as you described, God could incarnate himself into in order to do the rescuing.

So the God of the WHOLE FUCKING UNIVERSE spent 2000 years torturing one little tribe so that he could get a bloodline to find him a virgin to knock up? Do you realize how absolutely silly it sounds?

That, I suppose is one way that a mortal creature might look at the world. The flaw with with that view is that we are immortal creatures. We are going to continue on after we are finished on this plane...Should we worry about how badly things are on a plane in which the enemy is present, and has a degree of control, or should we concern ourselves what comes after....and will last forever, and in the process, try to make this world a better place?

Except the Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife... That was a later invention... probably when people were getting just smart enough to figure out that the Locust ate your crops no matter how much you prayed to God for them not to.

Today we just spray for fucking Locust, no God involved.

It's not a "kind of a messed up plan" nor "meaningless curse," but a violation of God's one law. We all must die now instead of having perfect bodies, life spirit, and souls. It also meant that the domain of the Earth went from Adam to the being behind the serpent -- Satan. Thus, Satan is "god of the world and the prince of the power of the air" now and we have to go through Armageddon. See, I understand these things from reading the Bible while you got it messed up.

The problem is, you are reading shit that ain't there. The Serpent in the Bible is just a serpent, he's not "Satan". In fact, Satan doesn't appear in the Old Testament all that much. OT writers rarely mention him, and when they do, it's usually as a servant of God, not an "enemy".

The thing is, God of the Bible never said Slavery or Genocide or Child Abuse was wrong. The bible clearly endorses these things. God didn't change his mind, we changed ours.