NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
Oh, and PS, should we delve into Patton's anti-Semitism, or is that a topic that we should leave to PC to never start a thread on?
lol
lol
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The Politics of General Patton
- Thread starter PoliticalChic
- Start date
Discombobulated
Gold Member
Patton was a soldier, not a politician. His own big mouth is what usually got him into trouble, he questioned the decisions of his superior officers on a regular basis. He wasn't always right, his plan for the invasion of Sicily being case in point.
You have a limited view of the meaning of politics.
pol·i·tics
ˈpäləˌtiks/
noun
- the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with being commander of the 3rd Army.
But it does show the fallacy in your statement "Patton was a soldier, not a politician."
Stalin and FDR saw him as a political threat.
I may post a thread on the result thereof.....if you ask nicely and promise to take notes.
A political threat? I had no idea Patton was running for office.
That's because you're a moron.
Did Monica Lewinsky run for office?
"Inside the White House, the debate goes on about the best way to destroy That Woman, as the President called Monica Lewinsky."
Liberties The Slander Strategy - New York Times
Carefully consider the word "destroy" when you consider the other political threat, George Patton.
Monica Lewinsky? I don't get it.......did FDR leave cum stains on Gen. Patton's uniform?
No, they were a significant risk. The IL2M is a dangerous cookie and towards the end they had the LA5FN which was a good aircraft. The difference though is the Soviet military would be fighting against pilots as good as the Germans, but with none of the supply problems.
I believe we discovered some good Soviet pilots over Korea. Had this imaginary scenario played out it would have been an epic air campaign between two completely different philosophies of air power. The US had devoted considerable resources into developing strategic air power (bombing campaigns over Germany and Japan), and naval air power as well. While the effectiveness of our tactical air forces was certainly unsurpassed, the Soviets were also very experienced in the use of aircraft supporting ground forces. The Soviets had a number of good aircraft designs, it would be hard to argue that the P-51 and P-47 were better aircraft than Yak-9 or La-5.
Yes, I never claimed the Soviets had no good pilots. They had some extremely good ones. However, they had far more pilots who were average to poor in skill levels, added to the centralized mission set ups that removed initiative from them, and the fact that they relied on group tactics instead of individual tactics for the most part, equals a good advantage for pilots who are aggressive, well trained, and equally important, well supplied.
The Germans had "experten" who shot down hundreds of aircraft (two, Hartmann and Barkhorn, 653 between them!). Just imagine what would have happened if they had been able to keep them fully supplied.
Most of the victories in those high scores were achieved before 1944 against inferior aircraft flown by pilots trained for simple tactics Both air combat tactics and the quality of aircraft improved greatly over time.
The aircraft certainly did, but not the tactics. The experten were scoring in droves even after the better aircraft showed up. They were just that good. Below is Hartmanns list of victories and as you can see 1944 was a very good year for him....
No. Date Time A/C Type Unit Location / Comments
1
5.11.1942
12:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 44 793 at 400m
2
27.1.1943
11:30 MiG-1 7./JG 52 15 112: at 2.500m
3
9.2.1943
10:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 86 722: at 1.000m
4
10.2.1943
6:15 Boston 7./JG 52 86 671: at 3.200m
5
24.3.1943
13:00 Il-2 7./JG 52 86 712: at 20m
6
27.3.1943
11:50 I-16 7./JG 52 85 171: at 800m
7
15.4.1943
15:33 P-39 7./JG 52 85 192: at 200m
8
26.4.1943
11:35 R-5 7./JG 52 86 722: at 700m
9
28.4.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 122: at 5.000m
10
30.4.1943
16:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 712: at 4.000m
11
30.4.1943
16:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 85 752: at 4.000m
12
7.5.1943
8:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 262: at 5.000m
13
7.5.1943
16:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 171: at 500m
14
11.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 234: at 3.000m
15
11.5.1943
5:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 144: at 5.000m
16
15.5.1943
12:10 U-2 7./JG 52 86 544: tiefflug
17
23.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 253: at 5.000m
18
5.7.1943
3:40 Il-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 663 at 300m
19
5.7.1943
7:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 151 at 1.500m
20
5.7.1943
14:00 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 333 at 200m
21
5.7.1943
18:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 124 at 2.000m
22
7.7.1943
3:50 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 183: at 500m
23
7.7.1943
3:52 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 154: at 200m
24
7.7.1943
6:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 331: at 500m
25
7.7.1943
6:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 182: at 1.000m
26
7.7.1943
17:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 214: at 3.000m
27
7.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 873: at 2.000m
28
7.7.1943
17:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 792: at 3.500m
29
8.7.1943
9:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 223: at 2.500m
30
8.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 221: at 2.500m
31
8.7.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.500m
32
8.7.1943
18:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 134: at 1.000m
33
9.7.1943
7:25 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 272: at 500m
34
9.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 871: at 2.000m
35
9.7.1943
9:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 844d: at 2.000m
36
10.7.1943
7:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.000m
37
11.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 883: at 2.600m
38
15.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 562: at 1.500m
39
16.7.1943
14:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 661: at 1.500m
40
17.7.1943
19:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 974: at 1.800m
41
31.7.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 623: at 1.000m
42
31.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 541: at 3.000m
43
1.8.1943
11:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 523 at 4.500m
44
1.8.1943
14:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 663 at 3.000m
45
1.8.1943
17:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 491 at 3.000m
46
1.8.1943
19:21 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 131 at 2.000m
47
1.8.1943
19:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 584 at 2.500m
48
3.8.1943
11:17 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
49
3.8.1943
11:22 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 412 at 1.000m
50
3.8.1943
11:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 192 at 1.000m
51
3.8.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 193 at 3.000m
52
4.8.1943
10:19 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.500m
53
4.8.1943
10:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 331 at 2.000m
54
4.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
55
4.8.1943
13:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 343 at 2.500m
56
4.8.1943
15:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 51 462 at 3.000m
57
5.8.1943
9:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 351 at 3.000m
58
5.8.1943
11:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 323 at 4.000m
59
5.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 314 at 3.500m
60
5.8.1943
17:04 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 333 at 4.000m
61
5.8.1943
17:27 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 441 at 5.000m
62
6.8.1943
16:08 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 393 at 3.500m
63
7.8.1943
8:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.000m
64
7.8.1943
8:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 384 at 2.500m
65
7.8.1943
11:55 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 561 at 4.000m
66
7.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 551 at 3.500m
67
7.8.1943
12:20 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 373 at 2.000m
68
8.8.1943
7:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 572 at 3.000m
69
8.8.1943
9:53 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 632 at 4.000m
70
8.8.1943
10:18 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 612 at 3.000m
71
8.8.1943
12:54 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 253 at 3.000m
72
9.8.1943
6:14 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 821: at 400m
73
9.8.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 581: at 4.000m
74
9.8.1943
16:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 561: at 4.000m
75
9.8.1943
16:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 814: at 4.500m
76
12.8.1943
8:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 772: at 5.000m
77
15.8.1943
9:14 Pe-2 7./JG 52 60 214: at 4.500m
78
15.8.1943
18:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 762: at 3.000m
79
17.8.1943
5:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 841: at 4.500m
80
17.8.1943
12:30 P-39 7./JG 52 70 791: at 2.500m
81
17.8.1943
13:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 842: at 5.000m
82
17.8.1943
17:40 P-39 7./JG 52 70 871: at 3.500m
83
18.8.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 193: at 3.000m
84
18.8.1943
12:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 792: at 3.000m
85
18.8.1943
12:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 134: at 2.000m
86
19.8.1943
10:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 88 263: at 5.000m
87
19.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 98 132: at 3.500m
88
19.8.1943
16:25 P-39 7./JG 52 88 281: at 3.000m
89
20.8.1943
6:07 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
90
20.8.1943
6:08 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
91
15.9.1943
12:20 Yak-9 9./JG 52 68 314: at 2.000m
92
18.9.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 69 563: at 4.000m
93
18.9.1943
10:30 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 68 391: at 4.000m
94
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 392: at 5.000m
95
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 332: at 4.000m
96
19.9.1943
14:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 6614: at 1.200m
97
19.9.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 56 599: at 800m
98
20.9.1943
13:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 59 394: at 2.000m
99
20.9.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 59 474: at 2.000m
100
20.9.1943
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 6.000m
101
20.9.1943
15:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 334: at 2.000m
102
25.9.1943
7:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 532: at 3.000m
103
25.9.1943
12:43 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 831: at 5.000m
104
25.9.1943
16:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.000m
105
26.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 691: at 5.000m
106
26.9.1943
7:05 P-39 9./JG 52 58 554: at 600m
107
26.9.1943
9:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 592: at 6.000m
108
27.9.1943
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.600m
109
27.9.1943
11:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 643: at 3.000m
110
28.9.1943
16:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641: at 2.000m
111
29.9.1943
6:56 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 644: at 4.000m
112
29.9.1943
8:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 4.000m
113
30.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 681: at 4.500m
114
30.9.1943
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 58 732: at 2.500m
115
30.9.1943
16:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 583: at 5.500m
116
1.10.1943
12:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641 at 5.000m
117
1.10.1943
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 762 at 3.500m
118
2.10.1943
8:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 833 at 5.000m
119
2.10.1943
8:50 Pe-2 9./JG 52 58 762 at 6.500m
120
2.10.1943
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 851 at 5.000m
121
2.10.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 672 at 4.000m
122
3.10.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 592: at 3.500m
123
3.10.1943
16:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 591 at 2.000m
124
4.10.1943
7:25 P-39 9./JG 52 58 614 at 5.000m
125
11.10.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 124: at 2.000m
126
12.10.1943
7:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 134: at 1.500m
127
12.10.1943
7:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 241: at 2.000m
128
12.10.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 211: at 1.000m
129
12.10.1943
15:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 161: at 1.000m
130
13.10.1943
10:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 3.000m
131
14.10.1943
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 184: at 4.000m
132
14.10.1943
8:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 151: at 3.500m
133
14.10.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 3.000m
134
15.10.1943
8:59 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 4.000m
135
15.10.1943
9:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 154: at 4.000m
136
15.10.1943
11:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 4.000m
137
20.10.1943
7:15 P-39 9./JG 52 39 472: at 4.000m
138
20.10.1943
7:20 P-39 9./JG 52 39 393: at 3.500m
139
20.10.1943
14:42 P-39 9./JG 52 39 534: at 1.500m
140
21.10.1943
7:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 39 481: at 4.500m
141
24.10.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 753: at 2.000m
142
24.10.1943
14:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 534: at 3.500m
143
25.10.1943
10:00 Pe-2 9./JG 52 49 523: at 6.500m
144
25.10.1943
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 182: at 2.000m
145
26.10.1943
8:08 P-39 9./JG 52 57 181: at 4.000m
146
26.10.1943
8:15 P-39 9./JG 52 57 153: at 4.500m
147
29.10.1943
8:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 38 151: at 5.500m
148
29.10.1943
11:05 P-39 9./JG 52 29 499: at 2.000m
149
7.12.1943
13:46 LaGG 9./JG 52 SSE Dneprovka: 4.000m
150
13.12.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 S Jsnigirevka: at 900m
151
15.12.1943
12:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Chervonovershka: at 800m
152
15.12.1943
12:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 N Verblyuzhka: at 700m
153
15.12.1943
14:16 LaGG 9./JG 52 NNE Chervonovershka: at 900m
154
17.12.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 E Novgorotka: at 5.000m
155
17.12.1943
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 NE Novgorotka: at 4.000m
156
17.12.1943
14:24 P-39 9./JG 52 S Verblyuzhka: at 4.000m
157
20.12.1943
9:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 NE Verchniy: at 200m
158
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 W Tomakovka: at 250m
159
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Verchniy: at 200m
160
3.1.1944
12:10 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 38 893 at 1.000m [Novo Krasnoye]
161
7.1.1944
14:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29361 at 4.000m
162
7.1.1944
14:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29344 at 3.000m
163
8.1.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29371 at 3.500m
164
8.1.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 29352 at 3.000m
165
8.1.1944
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 29552 at 4.000m
166
16.1.1944
10:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29 343 at 3.500m
167
16.1.1944
10:26 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 464 at 4.000m
168
16.1.1944
10:47 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 492 at 4.000m
169
17.1.1944
9:44 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 512 at 3.000m
170
17.1.1944
12:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 521 at 2.500m
171
17.1.1944
12:24 Pe-2 9./JG 52 19 492 at 1.000m
172
17.1.1944
14:06 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 341 at 4.000m
173
23.1.1944
11:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 29342 at 3.000m
174
23.1.1944
13:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 19262 at 1.000m
175
23.1.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19264 at 1.000m
176
23.1.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 19293 at 1.000m
177
24.1.1944
10:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 19 262 at 2.000m
178
30.1.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 274 at 400m
179
30.1.1944
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 283 at 300m
180
30.1.1944
12:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 4.000m
181
30.1.1944
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 243 at 3.000m
182
30.1.1944
14:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 261 at 2.000m
183
30.1.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 432 at 2.300m
184
31.1.1944
11:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
185
31.1.1944
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 132 at 1.200m
186
1.2.1944
8:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 284 at 800m
187
1.2.1944
10:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 162 at 2.500m
188
1.2.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
189
1.2.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 124 at 1.500m
190
1.2.1944
12:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 134 at 1.000m
191
3.2.1944
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 152 at 400m
192
4.2.1944
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 10 783 at 3.500m
193
26.2.1944
9:08 P-39 9./JG 52 29 381: at 3.000m
194
26.2.1944
9:16 P-39 9./JG 52 29 384: at 3.000m
195
26.2.1944
11:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 4.000m
196
26.2.1944
11:48 P-39 9./JG 52 29 521: at 3.000m
197
26.2.1944
11:53 P-39 9./JG 52 29 514: at 3.000m
198
26.2.1944
11:58 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.500m
199
26.2.1944
12:03 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.000m
200
26.2.1944
14:40 P-39 9./JG 52 29 552: at 2.500m
201
26.2.1944
14:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 531: at 3.000m
202
26.2.1944
14:50 P-39 9./JG 52 29 512: at 2.000m
203
23.4.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 351: at 1.500m
204
24.4.1944
11:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 474: at 2.000m
205
24.4.1944
12:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 472: at 5.000m
206
26.4.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 474: at 4.000m
207
26.4.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 35 481: at 4.000m
208
3.5.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 273: at 2.000m
209
4.5.1944
16:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 3.500m
210
4.5.1944
17:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 5.000m
211
4.5.1944
17:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 214: at 2.500m
212
5.5.1944
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 421: at 3.000m
213
5.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 614: at 2.000m
214
5.5.1944
10:48 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 2.000m
215
5.5.1944
10:54 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 532: at 1.500m
216
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 274: at 1.500m
217
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 423: at 4.500m
218
6.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 442: at 2.500m
219
7.5.1944
9:22 P-39 9./JG 52 35 644: at 5.000m
220
7.5.1944
9:30 P-39 9./JG 52 35 641: at 5.000m
221
7.5.1944
9:40 P-39 9./JG 52 35 483: at 3.500m
222
8.5.1944
9:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 1.000m
223
8.5.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 362: at 4.000m
224
20.5.1944
12:24 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 754: at 2.500m
225
20.5.1944
18:35 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 711: at 2.000m
226
29.5.1944
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 764L tiefst.
227
30.5.1944
11:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 644: at 3.500m
228
30.5.1944
14:38 P-39 9./JG 52 78 613: at 4.000m
229
31.5.1944
18:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 647: at 4.000m
230
31.5.1944
18:08 P-39 9./JG 52 78 614: at 5.000m
231
31.5.1944
18:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 3.500m
232
1.6.1944
11:31 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 677: at 200m
233
1.6.1944
11:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 813: at 2.000m
234
1.6.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 648: at 2.000m
235
1.6.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 673: at 1.000m
236
1.6.1944
14:32 P-39 9./JG 52 78 673: at 2.000m
237
1.6.1944
14:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 675: at 1.000m
238
2.6.1944
17:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 685: at 4.000m
239
2.6.1944
17:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 640: at 4.000m
240
3.6.1944
13:30 P-39 9./JG 52 78 825: at 4.000m
241
3.6.1944
13:33 P-39 9./JG 52 78 813: at 3.000m
242
3.6.1944
14:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 733: at 500m
243
3.6.1944
16:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 568: at 600m
244
4.6.1944
15:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 1.500m
245
4.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 595: at 200m
246
4.6.1944
17:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 596: at 2.000m
247
4.6.1944
17:23 P-39 9./JG 52 78 591: at 2.500m
248
4.6.1944
17:53 P-39 9./JG 52 78 590: at 2.000m
249
4.6.1944
18:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 565: at 2.000m
250
4.6.1944
18:18 P-39 9./JG 52 78 560: at 2.000m
251
5.6.1944
13:12 P-39 9./JG 52 25km NW Jasi: at 5.000m
252
5.6.1944
13:19 P-39 9./JG 52 5km W Jasi: at 5.000m
253
5.6.1944
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 582: at 3.500m
254
5.6.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 722: at 100m
255
5.6.1944
18:07 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 562: at 2.500m
256
5.6.1944
18:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 674: at 5.000m
257
5.6.1944
18:43 P-39 9./JG 52 78 583: at 4.000m
258
6.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 598: at 600m
259
6.6.1944
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 591: at 1.000m
260
6.6.1944
19:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 582: at 1.500m
261
6.6.1944
19:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 569: at 1.000m
262
6.6.1944
19:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 728: at 800m
263
12.6.1944
14:00 P-39 9./JG 52 78 862: at 1.500m
264
12.6.1944
14:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 831: at 3.000m
265
24.6.1944
9:50 Mustang 9./JG 52 65 136: at 3.000m
266
27.6.1944
18:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 229: at 3.000m
267
27.6.1944
18:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 245: at 2.000m
268
1.7.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 173: at 4.000m
269
1.7.1944
17:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 179: at 3.000m
270
15.8.1944
11:43 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 01 633 at 1.500m
271
15.8.1944
11:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663 at 1.500m
272
17.8.1944
12:25 P-39 9./JG 52 11 267 at 3.000m
273
17.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 273 at 5.000m
274
17.8.1944
15:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 277 at 800m
275
18.8.1944
16:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 272 at 500m
276
20.8.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 779 at 1.500m
277
20.8.1944
12:03 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 757 at 1.200m
278
20.8.1944
12:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 724 at 1.200m
279
22.8.1944
12:20 P-39 9./JG 52 11 274: at 3.000m
280
22.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 335: at 2.000m
281
22.8.1944
12:31 P-39 9./JG 52 11 339: at 2.000m
282
22.8.1944
15:17 P-39 9./JG 52 11 411: at 2.000m
283
22.8.1944
15:22 P-39 9./JG 52 11 271: at 1.500m
284
23.8.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 411: at 1.000m
285
23.8.1944
14:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 413: at 1.200m
286
23.8.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 278: at 1.000m
287
23.8.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.500m
288
23.8.1944
17:12 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 333: at 1.500m
289
23.8.1944
17:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 412: at 1.200m
290
23.8.1944
17:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.000m
291
23.8.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 444: at 3.500m
292
24.8.1944
13:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 417: at 1.500m
293
24.8.1944
13:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 416: at 2.000m
294
24.8.1944
13:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.200m
295
24.8.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 427: at 1.500m
296
24.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 419: at 1.000m
297
24.8.1944
13:40 P-39 9./JG 52 11 443: at 3.000m
298
24.8.1944
16:00 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 335: at 1.500m
299
24.8.1944
16:03 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.200m
300
24.8.1944
16:06 P-39 9./JG 52 11 447: at 1.200m
301
24.8.1944
16:10 P-39 9./JG 52 11 441: at 1.000m
302
24.8.1944
16:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 422: no height
303
25.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663: at 200m
304
27.8.1944
18:00 P-39 9./JG 52 11 353: at 2.500m
305
27.10.1944
10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306
31.10.1944
15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307?
1.11.1944
14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307?
7.11.1944
13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308
13.11.1944
14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309
13.11.1944
14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310
13.11.1944
14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311
13.11.1944
14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312
14.11.1944
11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313
14.11.1944
11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m
314
16.11.1944
8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315
16.11.1944
8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316
17.11.1944
14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m
317
22.11.1944
11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318
22.11.1944
11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322
22.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
323
23.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
328
5.12.1944
13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329
5.12.1944
13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m
330
9.12.1944
13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331
9.12.1944
13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m
332
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
333
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
334
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
335
I.-II.1945
- Boston III Stab I./JG 52 or Mitchell
336
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
337
4.2.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 -
338
20.2.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
339
20.2.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
340
6.3.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
341
6.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
342
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
343
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
344
9.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
345
11.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
346
16.3.1945
- E/a Stab I./JG 52 -
347
??.3.1945
- Mustang Stab I./JG 52 -
348
10.4.1945
- B-26 Stab I./JG 52 -
349
11.4.1945
- Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
350
17.4.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
351
25.4.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
352
8.5.1945
8:30-9:20 Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 Brün area: at 4000m
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html
I guess American and British pilots were just lucky that he was on the eastern front.
He shot down 5 Americans over Romania and the western front had plenty of experten there as well. Thankfully the Germans had major fuel and munitions supply problems or the death toll to our air forces would have been much higher. Most have no idea that the Eighth Air Force suffered more casualties than all the USMC losses in the Pacific theatre. And they were one of FOUR air forces fighting the Germans.
Discombobulated
Gold Member
I believe we discovered some good Soviet pilots over Korea. Had this imaginary scenario played out it would have been an epic air campaign between two completely different philosophies of air power. The US had devoted considerable resources into developing strategic air power (bombing campaigns over Germany and Japan), and naval air power as well. While the effectiveness of our tactical air forces was certainly unsurpassed, the Soviets were also very experienced in the use of aircraft supporting ground forces. The Soviets had a number of good aircraft designs, it would be hard to argue that the P-51 and P-47 were better aircraft than Yak-9 or La-5.
Yes, I never claimed the Soviets had no good pilots. They had some extremely good ones. However, they had far more pilots who were average to poor in skill levels, added to the centralized mission set ups that removed initiative from them, and the fact that they relied on group tactics instead of individual tactics for the most part, equals a good advantage for pilots who are aggressive, well trained, and equally important, well supplied.
The Germans had "experten" who shot down hundreds of aircraft (two, Hartmann and Barkhorn, 653 between them!). Just imagine what would have happened if they had been able to keep them fully supplied.
Most of the victories in those high scores were achieved before 1944 against inferior aircraft flown by pilots trained for simple tactics Both air combat tactics and the quality of aircraft improved greatly over time.
The aircraft certainly did, but not the tactics. The experten were scoring in droves even after the better aircraft showed up. They were just that good. Below is Hartmanns list of victories and as you can see 1944 was a very good year for him....
No. Date Time A/C Type Unit Location / Comments
1
5.11.1942
12:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 44 793 at 400m
2
27.1.1943
11:30 MiG-1 7./JG 52 15 112: at 2.500m
3
9.2.1943
10:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 86 722: at 1.000m
4
10.2.1943
6:15 Boston 7./JG 52 86 671: at 3.200m
5
24.3.1943
13:00 Il-2 7./JG 52 86 712: at 20m
6
27.3.1943
11:50 I-16 7./JG 52 85 171: at 800m
7
15.4.1943
15:33 P-39 7./JG 52 85 192: at 200m
8
26.4.1943
11:35 R-5 7./JG 52 86 722: at 700m
9
28.4.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 122: at 5.000m
10
30.4.1943
16:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 712: at 4.000m
11
30.4.1943
16:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 85 752: at 4.000m
12
7.5.1943
8:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 262: at 5.000m
13
7.5.1943
16:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 171: at 500m
14
11.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 234: at 3.000m
15
11.5.1943
5:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 144: at 5.000m
16
15.5.1943
12:10 U-2 7./JG 52 86 544: tiefflug
17
23.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 253: at 5.000m
18
5.7.1943
3:40 Il-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 663 at 300m
19
5.7.1943
7:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 151 at 1.500m
20
5.7.1943
14:00 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 333 at 200m
21
5.7.1943
18:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 124 at 2.000m
22
7.7.1943
3:50 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 183: at 500m
23
7.7.1943
3:52 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 154: at 200m
24
7.7.1943
6:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 331: at 500m
25
7.7.1943
6:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 182: at 1.000m
26
7.7.1943
17:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 214: at 3.000m
27
7.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 873: at 2.000m
28
7.7.1943
17:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 792: at 3.500m
29
8.7.1943
9:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 223: at 2.500m
30
8.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 221: at 2.500m
31
8.7.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.500m
32
8.7.1943
18:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 134: at 1.000m
33
9.7.1943
7:25 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 272: at 500m
34
9.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 871: at 2.000m
35
9.7.1943
9:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 844d: at 2.000m
36
10.7.1943
7:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.000m
37
11.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 883: at 2.600m
38
15.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 562: at 1.500m
39
16.7.1943
14:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 661: at 1.500m
40
17.7.1943
19:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 974: at 1.800m
41
31.7.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 623: at 1.000m
42
31.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 541: at 3.000m
43
1.8.1943
11:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 523 at 4.500m
44
1.8.1943
14:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 663 at 3.000m
45
1.8.1943
17:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 491 at 3.000m
46
1.8.1943
19:21 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 131 at 2.000m
47
1.8.1943
19:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 584 at 2.500m
48
3.8.1943
11:17 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
49
3.8.1943
11:22 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 412 at 1.000m
50
3.8.1943
11:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 192 at 1.000m
51
3.8.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 193 at 3.000m
52
4.8.1943
10:19 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.500m
53
4.8.1943
10:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 331 at 2.000m
54
4.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
55
4.8.1943
13:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 343 at 2.500m
56
4.8.1943
15:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 51 462 at 3.000m
57
5.8.1943
9:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 351 at 3.000m
58
5.8.1943
11:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 323 at 4.000m
59
5.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 314 at 3.500m
60
5.8.1943
17:04 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 333 at 4.000m
61
5.8.1943
17:27 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 441 at 5.000m
62
6.8.1943
16:08 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 393 at 3.500m
63
7.8.1943
8:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.000m
64
7.8.1943
8:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 384 at 2.500m
65
7.8.1943
11:55 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 561 at 4.000m
66
7.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 551 at 3.500m
67
7.8.1943
12:20 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 373 at 2.000m
68
8.8.1943
7:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 572 at 3.000m
69
8.8.1943
9:53 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 632 at 4.000m
70
8.8.1943
10:18 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 612 at 3.000m
71
8.8.1943
12:54 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 253 at 3.000m
72
9.8.1943
6:14 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 821: at 400m
73
9.8.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 581: at 4.000m
74
9.8.1943
16:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 561: at 4.000m
75
9.8.1943
16:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 814: at 4.500m
76
12.8.1943
8:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 772: at 5.000m
77
15.8.1943
9:14 Pe-2 7./JG 52 60 214: at 4.500m
78
15.8.1943
18:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 762: at 3.000m
79
17.8.1943
5:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 841: at 4.500m
80
17.8.1943
12:30 P-39 7./JG 52 70 791: at 2.500m
81
17.8.1943
13:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 842: at 5.000m
82
17.8.1943
17:40 P-39 7./JG 52 70 871: at 3.500m
83
18.8.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 193: at 3.000m
84
18.8.1943
12:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 792: at 3.000m
85
18.8.1943
12:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 134: at 2.000m
86
19.8.1943
10:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 88 263: at 5.000m
87
19.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 98 132: at 3.500m
88
19.8.1943
16:25 P-39 7./JG 52 88 281: at 3.000m
89
20.8.1943
6:07 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
90
20.8.1943
6:08 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
91
15.9.1943
12:20 Yak-9 9./JG 52 68 314: at 2.000m
92
18.9.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 69 563: at 4.000m
93
18.9.1943
10:30 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 68 391: at 4.000m
94
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 392: at 5.000m
95
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 332: at 4.000m
96
19.9.1943
14:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 6614: at 1.200m
97
19.9.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 56 599: at 800m
98
20.9.1943
13:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 59 394: at 2.000m
99
20.9.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 59 474: at 2.000m
100
20.9.1943
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 6.000m
101
20.9.1943
15:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 334: at 2.000m
102
25.9.1943
7:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 532: at 3.000m
103
25.9.1943
12:43 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 831: at 5.000m
104
25.9.1943
16:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.000m
105
26.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 691: at 5.000m
106
26.9.1943
7:05 P-39 9./JG 52 58 554: at 600m
107
26.9.1943
9:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 592: at 6.000m
108
27.9.1943
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.600m
109
27.9.1943
11:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 643: at 3.000m
110
28.9.1943
16:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641: at 2.000m
111
29.9.1943
6:56 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 644: at 4.000m
112
29.9.1943
8:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 4.000m
113
30.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 681: at 4.500m
114
30.9.1943
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 58 732: at 2.500m
115
30.9.1943
16:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 583: at 5.500m
116
1.10.1943
12:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641 at 5.000m
117
1.10.1943
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 762 at 3.500m
118
2.10.1943
8:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 833 at 5.000m
119
2.10.1943
8:50 Pe-2 9./JG 52 58 762 at 6.500m
120
2.10.1943
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 851 at 5.000m
121
2.10.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 672 at 4.000m
122
3.10.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 592: at 3.500m
123
3.10.1943
16:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 591 at 2.000m
124
4.10.1943
7:25 P-39 9./JG 52 58 614 at 5.000m
125
11.10.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 124: at 2.000m
126
12.10.1943
7:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 134: at 1.500m
127
12.10.1943
7:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 241: at 2.000m
128
12.10.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 211: at 1.000m
129
12.10.1943
15:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 161: at 1.000m
130
13.10.1943
10:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 3.000m
131
14.10.1943
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 184: at 4.000m
132
14.10.1943
8:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 151: at 3.500m
133
14.10.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 3.000m
134
15.10.1943
8:59 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 4.000m
135
15.10.1943
9:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 154: at 4.000m
136
15.10.1943
11:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 4.000m
137
20.10.1943
7:15 P-39 9./JG 52 39 472: at 4.000m
138
20.10.1943
7:20 P-39 9./JG 52 39 393: at 3.500m
139
20.10.1943
14:42 P-39 9./JG 52 39 534: at 1.500m
140
21.10.1943
7:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 39 481: at 4.500m
141
24.10.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 753: at 2.000m
142
24.10.1943
14:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 534: at 3.500m
143
25.10.1943
10:00 Pe-2 9./JG 52 49 523: at 6.500m
144
25.10.1943
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 182: at 2.000m
145
26.10.1943
8:08 P-39 9./JG 52 57 181: at 4.000m
146
26.10.1943
8:15 P-39 9./JG 52 57 153: at 4.500m
147
29.10.1943
8:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 38 151: at 5.500m
148
29.10.1943
11:05 P-39 9./JG 52 29 499: at 2.000m
149
7.12.1943
13:46 LaGG 9./JG 52 SSE Dneprovka: 4.000m
150
13.12.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 S Jsnigirevka: at 900m
151
15.12.1943
12:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Chervonovershka: at 800m
152
15.12.1943
12:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 N Verblyuzhka: at 700m
153
15.12.1943
14:16 LaGG 9./JG 52 NNE Chervonovershka: at 900m
154
17.12.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 E Novgorotka: at 5.000m
155
17.12.1943
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 NE Novgorotka: at 4.000m
156
17.12.1943
14:24 P-39 9./JG 52 S Verblyuzhka: at 4.000m
157
20.12.1943
9:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 NE Verchniy: at 200m
158
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 W Tomakovka: at 250m
159
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Verchniy: at 200m
160
3.1.1944
12:10 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 38 893 at 1.000m [Novo Krasnoye]
161
7.1.1944
14:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29361 at 4.000m
162
7.1.1944
14:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29344 at 3.000m
163
8.1.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29371 at 3.500m
164
8.1.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 29352 at 3.000m
165
8.1.1944
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 29552 at 4.000m
166
16.1.1944
10:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29 343 at 3.500m
167
16.1.1944
10:26 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 464 at 4.000m
168
16.1.1944
10:47 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 492 at 4.000m
169
17.1.1944
9:44 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 512 at 3.000m
170
17.1.1944
12:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 521 at 2.500m
171
17.1.1944
12:24 Pe-2 9./JG 52 19 492 at 1.000m
172
17.1.1944
14:06 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 341 at 4.000m
173
23.1.1944
11:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 29342 at 3.000m
174
23.1.1944
13:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 19262 at 1.000m
175
23.1.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19264 at 1.000m
176
23.1.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 19293 at 1.000m
177
24.1.1944
10:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 19 262 at 2.000m
178
30.1.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 274 at 400m
179
30.1.1944
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 283 at 300m
180
30.1.1944
12:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 4.000m
181
30.1.1944
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 243 at 3.000m
182
30.1.1944
14:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 261 at 2.000m
183
30.1.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 432 at 2.300m
184
31.1.1944
11:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
185
31.1.1944
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 132 at 1.200m
186
1.2.1944
8:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 284 at 800m
187
1.2.1944
10:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 162 at 2.500m
188
1.2.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
189
1.2.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 124 at 1.500m
190
1.2.1944
12:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 134 at 1.000m
191
3.2.1944
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 152 at 400m
192
4.2.1944
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 10 783 at 3.500m
193
26.2.1944
9:08 P-39 9./JG 52 29 381: at 3.000m
194
26.2.1944
9:16 P-39 9./JG 52 29 384: at 3.000m
195
26.2.1944
11:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 4.000m
196
26.2.1944
11:48 P-39 9./JG 52 29 521: at 3.000m
197
26.2.1944
11:53 P-39 9./JG 52 29 514: at 3.000m
198
26.2.1944
11:58 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.500m
199
26.2.1944
12:03 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.000m
200
26.2.1944
14:40 P-39 9./JG 52 29 552: at 2.500m
201
26.2.1944
14:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 531: at 3.000m
202
26.2.1944
14:50 P-39 9./JG 52 29 512: at 2.000m
203
23.4.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 351: at 1.500m
204
24.4.1944
11:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 474: at 2.000m
205
24.4.1944
12:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 472: at 5.000m
206
26.4.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 474: at 4.000m
207
26.4.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 35 481: at 4.000m
208
3.5.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 273: at 2.000m
209
4.5.1944
16:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 3.500m
210
4.5.1944
17:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 5.000m
211
4.5.1944
17:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 214: at 2.500m
212
5.5.1944
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 421: at 3.000m
213
5.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 614: at 2.000m
214
5.5.1944
10:48 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 2.000m
215
5.5.1944
10:54 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 532: at 1.500m
216
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 274: at 1.500m
217
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 423: at 4.500m
218
6.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 442: at 2.500m
219
7.5.1944
9:22 P-39 9./JG 52 35 644: at 5.000m
220
7.5.1944
9:30 P-39 9./JG 52 35 641: at 5.000m
221
7.5.1944
9:40 P-39 9./JG 52 35 483: at 3.500m
222
8.5.1944
9:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 1.000m
223
8.5.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 362: at 4.000m
224
20.5.1944
12:24 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 754: at 2.500m
225
20.5.1944
18:35 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 711: at 2.000m
226
29.5.1944
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 764L tiefst.
227
30.5.1944
11:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 644: at 3.500m
228
30.5.1944
14:38 P-39 9./JG 52 78 613: at 4.000m
229
31.5.1944
18:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 647: at 4.000m
230
31.5.1944
18:08 P-39 9./JG 52 78 614: at 5.000m
231
31.5.1944
18:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 3.500m
232
1.6.1944
11:31 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 677: at 200m
233
1.6.1944
11:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 813: at 2.000m
234
1.6.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 648: at 2.000m
235
1.6.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 673: at 1.000m
236
1.6.1944
14:32 P-39 9./JG 52 78 673: at 2.000m
237
1.6.1944
14:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 675: at 1.000m
238
2.6.1944
17:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 685: at 4.000m
239
2.6.1944
17:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 640: at 4.000m
240
3.6.1944
13:30 P-39 9./JG 52 78 825: at 4.000m
241
3.6.1944
13:33 P-39 9./JG 52 78 813: at 3.000m
242
3.6.1944
14:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 733: at 500m
243
3.6.1944
16:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 568: at 600m
244
4.6.1944
15:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 1.500m
245
4.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 595: at 200m
246
4.6.1944
17:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 596: at 2.000m
247
4.6.1944
17:23 P-39 9./JG 52 78 591: at 2.500m
248
4.6.1944
17:53 P-39 9./JG 52 78 590: at 2.000m
249
4.6.1944
18:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 565: at 2.000m
250
4.6.1944
18:18 P-39 9./JG 52 78 560: at 2.000m
251
5.6.1944
13:12 P-39 9./JG 52 25km NW Jasi: at 5.000m
252
5.6.1944
13:19 P-39 9./JG 52 5km W Jasi: at 5.000m
253
5.6.1944
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 582: at 3.500m
254
5.6.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 722: at 100m
255
5.6.1944
18:07 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 562: at 2.500m
256
5.6.1944
18:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 674: at 5.000m
257
5.6.1944
18:43 P-39 9./JG 52 78 583: at 4.000m
258
6.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 598: at 600m
259
6.6.1944
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 591: at 1.000m
260
6.6.1944
19:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 582: at 1.500m
261
6.6.1944
19:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 569: at 1.000m
262
6.6.1944
19:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 728: at 800m
263
12.6.1944
14:00 P-39 9./JG 52 78 862: at 1.500m
264
12.6.1944
14:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 831: at 3.000m
265
24.6.1944
9:50 Mustang 9./JG 52 65 136: at 3.000m
266
27.6.1944
18:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 229: at 3.000m
267
27.6.1944
18:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 245: at 2.000m
268
1.7.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 173: at 4.000m
269
1.7.1944
17:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 179: at 3.000m
270
15.8.1944
11:43 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 01 633 at 1.500m
271
15.8.1944
11:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663 at 1.500m
272
17.8.1944
12:25 P-39 9./JG 52 11 267 at 3.000m
273
17.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 273 at 5.000m
274
17.8.1944
15:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 277 at 800m
275
18.8.1944
16:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 272 at 500m
276
20.8.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 779 at 1.500m
277
20.8.1944
12:03 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 757 at 1.200m
278
20.8.1944
12:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 724 at 1.200m
279
22.8.1944
12:20 P-39 9./JG 52 11 274: at 3.000m
280
22.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 335: at 2.000m
281
22.8.1944
12:31 P-39 9./JG 52 11 339: at 2.000m
282
22.8.1944
15:17 P-39 9./JG 52 11 411: at 2.000m
283
22.8.1944
15:22 P-39 9./JG 52 11 271: at 1.500m
284
23.8.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 411: at 1.000m
285
23.8.1944
14:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 413: at 1.200m
286
23.8.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 278: at 1.000m
287
23.8.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.500m
288
23.8.1944
17:12 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 333: at 1.500m
289
23.8.1944
17:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 412: at 1.200m
290
23.8.1944
17:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.000m
291
23.8.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 444: at 3.500m
292
24.8.1944
13:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 417: at 1.500m
293
24.8.1944
13:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 416: at 2.000m
294
24.8.1944
13:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.200m
295
24.8.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 427: at 1.500m
296
24.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 419: at 1.000m
297
24.8.1944
13:40 P-39 9./JG 52 11 443: at 3.000m
298
24.8.1944
16:00 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 335: at 1.500m
299
24.8.1944
16:03 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.200m
300
24.8.1944
16:06 P-39 9./JG 52 11 447: at 1.200m
301
24.8.1944
16:10 P-39 9./JG 52 11 441: at 1.000m
302
24.8.1944
16:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 422: no height
303
25.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663: at 200m
304
27.8.1944
18:00 P-39 9./JG 52 11 353: at 2.500m
305
27.10.1944
10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306
31.10.1944
15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307?
1.11.1944
14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307?
7.11.1944
13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308
13.11.1944
14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309
13.11.1944
14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310
13.11.1944
14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311
13.11.1944
14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312
14.11.1944
11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313
14.11.1944
11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m
314
16.11.1944
8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315
16.11.1944
8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316
17.11.1944
14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m
317
22.11.1944
11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318
22.11.1944
11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322
22.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
323
23.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
328
5.12.1944
13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329
5.12.1944
13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m
330
9.12.1944
13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331
9.12.1944
13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m
332
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
333
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
334
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
335
I.-II.1945
- Boston III Stab I./JG 52 or Mitchell
336
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
337
4.2.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 -
338
20.2.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
339
20.2.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
340
6.3.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
341
6.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
342
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
343
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
344
9.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
345
11.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
346
16.3.1945
- E/a Stab I./JG 52 -
347
??.3.1945
- Mustang Stab I./JG 52 -
348
10.4.1945
- B-26 Stab I./JG 52 -
349
11.4.1945
- Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
350
17.4.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
351
25.4.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
352
8.5.1945
8:30-9:20 Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 Brün area: at 4000m
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html
I guess American and British pilots were just lucky that he was on the eastern front.
He shot down 5 Americans over Romania and the western front had plenty of experten there as well. Thankfully the Germans had major fuel and munitions supply problems or the death toll to our air forces would have been much higher. Most have no idea that the Eighth Air Force suffered more casualties than all the USMC losses in the Pacific theatre. And they were one of FOUR air forces fighting the Germans.
Part of the reason for the extremely high score of aerial victories was that German pilots didn't rotate through training commands the way our pilots did......the Germans usually fought until they died.
Yes, I never claimed the Soviets had no good pilots. They had some extremely good ones. However, they had far more pilots who were average to poor in skill levels, added to the centralized mission set ups that removed initiative from them, and the fact that they relied on group tactics instead of individual tactics for the most part, equals a good advantage for pilots who are aggressive, well trained, and equally important, well supplied.
The Germans had "experten" who shot down hundreds of aircraft (two, Hartmann and Barkhorn, 653 between them!). Just imagine what would have happened if they had been able to keep them fully supplied.
Most of the victories in those high scores were achieved before 1944 against inferior aircraft flown by pilots trained for simple tactics Both air combat tactics and the quality of aircraft improved greatly over time.
The aircraft certainly did, but not the tactics. The experten were scoring in droves even after the better aircraft showed up. They were just that good. Below is Hartmanns list of victories and as you can see 1944 was a very good year for him....
No. Date Time A/C Type Unit Location / Comments
1
5.11.1942
12:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 44 793 at 400m
2
27.1.1943
11:30 MiG-1 7./JG 52 15 112: at 2.500m
3
9.2.1943
10:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 86 722: at 1.000m
4
10.2.1943
6:15 Boston 7./JG 52 86 671: at 3.200m
5
24.3.1943
13:00 Il-2 7./JG 52 86 712: at 20m
6
27.3.1943
11:50 I-16 7./JG 52 85 171: at 800m
7
15.4.1943
15:33 P-39 7./JG 52 85 192: at 200m
8
26.4.1943
11:35 R-5 7./JG 52 86 722: at 700m
9
28.4.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 122: at 5.000m
10
30.4.1943
16:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 712: at 4.000m
11
30.4.1943
16:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 85 752: at 4.000m
12
7.5.1943
8:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 262: at 5.000m
13
7.5.1943
16:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 171: at 500m
14
11.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 234: at 3.000m
15
11.5.1943
5:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 144: at 5.000m
16
15.5.1943
12:10 U-2 7./JG 52 86 544: tiefflug
17
23.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 253: at 5.000m
18
5.7.1943
3:40 Il-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 663 at 300m
19
5.7.1943
7:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 151 at 1.500m
20
5.7.1943
14:00 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 333 at 200m
21
5.7.1943
18:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 124 at 2.000m
22
7.7.1943
3:50 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 183: at 500m
23
7.7.1943
3:52 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 154: at 200m
24
7.7.1943
6:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 331: at 500m
25
7.7.1943
6:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 182: at 1.000m
26
7.7.1943
17:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 214: at 3.000m
27
7.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 873: at 2.000m
28
7.7.1943
17:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 792: at 3.500m
29
8.7.1943
9:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 223: at 2.500m
30
8.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 221: at 2.500m
31
8.7.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.500m
32
8.7.1943
18:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 134: at 1.000m
33
9.7.1943
7:25 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 272: at 500m
34
9.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 871: at 2.000m
35
9.7.1943
9:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 844d: at 2.000m
36
10.7.1943
7:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.000m
37
11.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 883: at 2.600m
38
15.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 562: at 1.500m
39
16.7.1943
14:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 661: at 1.500m
40
17.7.1943
19:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 974: at 1.800m
41
31.7.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 623: at 1.000m
42
31.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 541: at 3.000m
43
1.8.1943
11:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 523 at 4.500m
44
1.8.1943
14:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 663 at 3.000m
45
1.8.1943
17:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 491 at 3.000m
46
1.8.1943
19:21 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 131 at 2.000m
47
1.8.1943
19:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 584 at 2.500m
48
3.8.1943
11:17 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
49
3.8.1943
11:22 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 412 at 1.000m
50
3.8.1943
11:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 192 at 1.000m
51
3.8.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 193 at 3.000m
52
4.8.1943
10:19 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.500m
53
4.8.1943
10:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 331 at 2.000m
54
4.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
55
4.8.1943
13:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 343 at 2.500m
56
4.8.1943
15:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 51 462 at 3.000m
57
5.8.1943
9:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 351 at 3.000m
58
5.8.1943
11:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 323 at 4.000m
59
5.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 314 at 3.500m
60
5.8.1943
17:04 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 333 at 4.000m
61
5.8.1943
17:27 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 441 at 5.000m
62
6.8.1943
16:08 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 393 at 3.500m
63
7.8.1943
8:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.000m
64
7.8.1943
8:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 384 at 2.500m
65
7.8.1943
11:55 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 561 at 4.000m
66
7.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 551 at 3.500m
67
7.8.1943
12:20 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 373 at 2.000m
68
8.8.1943
7:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 572 at 3.000m
69
8.8.1943
9:53 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 632 at 4.000m
70
8.8.1943
10:18 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 612 at 3.000m
71
8.8.1943
12:54 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 253 at 3.000m
72
9.8.1943
6:14 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 821: at 400m
73
9.8.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 581: at 4.000m
74
9.8.1943
16:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 561: at 4.000m
75
9.8.1943
16:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 814: at 4.500m
76
12.8.1943
8:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 772: at 5.000m
77
15.8.1943
9:14 Pe-2 7./JG 52 60 214: at 4.500m
78
15.8.1943
18:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 762: at 3.000m
79
17.8.1943
5:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 841: at 4.500m
80
17.8.1943
12:30 P-39 7./JG 52 70 791: at 2.500m
81
17.8.1943
13:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 842: at 5.000m
82
17.8.1943
17:40 P-39 7./JG 52 70 871: at 3.500m
83
18.8.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 193: at 3.000m
84
18.8.1943
12:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 792: at 3.000m
85
18.8.1943
12:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 134: at 2.000m
86
19.8.1943
10:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 88 263: at 5.000m
87
19.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 98 132: at 3.500m
88
19.8.1943
16:25 P-39 7./JG 52 88 281: at 3.000m
89
20.8.1943
6:07 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
90
20.8.1943
6:08 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
91
15.9.1943
12:20 Yak-9 9./JG 52 68 314: at 2.000m
92
18.9.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 69 563: at 4.000m
93
18.9.1943
10:30 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 68 391: at 4.000m
94
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 392: at 5.000m
95
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 332: at 4.000m
96
19.9.1943
14:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 6614: at 1.200m
97
19.9.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 56 599: at 800m
98
20.9.1943
13:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 59 394: at 2.000m
99
20.9.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 59 474: at 2.000m
100
20.9.1943
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 6.000m
101
20.9.1943
15:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 334: at 2.000m
102
25.9.1943
7:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 532: at 3.000m
103
25.9.1943
12:43 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 831: at 5.000m
104
25.9.1943
16:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.000m
105
26.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 691: at 5.000m
106
26.9.1943
7:05 P-39 9./JG 52 58 554: at 600m
107
26.9.1943
9:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 592: at 6.000m
108
27.9.1943
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.600m
109
27.9.1943
11:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 643: at 3.000m
110
28.9.1943
16:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641: at 2.000m
111
29.9.1943
6:56 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 644: at 4.000m
112
29.9.1943
8:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 4.000m
113
30.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 681: at 4.500m
114
30.9.1943
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 58 732: at 2.500m
115
30.9.1943
16:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 583: at 5.500m
116
1.10.1943
12:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641 at 5.000m
117
1.10.1943
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 762 at 3.500m
118
2.10.1943
8:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 833 at 5.000m
119
2.10.1943
8:50 Pe-2 9./JG 52 58 762 at 6.500m
120
2.10.1943
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 851 at 5.000m
121
2.10.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 672 at 4.000m
122
3.10.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 592: at 3.500m
123
3.10.1943
16:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 591 at 2.000m
124
4.10.1943
7:25 P-39 9./JG 52 58 614 at 5.000m
125
11.10.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 124: at 2.000m
126
12.10.1943
7:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 134: at 1.500m
127
12.10.1943
7:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 241: at 2.000m
128
12.10.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 211: at 1.000m
129
12.10.1943
15:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 161: at 1.000m
130
13.10.1943
10:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 3.000m
131
14.10.1943
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 184: at 4.000m
132
14.10.1943
8:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 151: at 3.500m
133
14.10.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 3.000m
134
15.10.1943
8:59 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 4.000m
135
15.10.1943
9:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 154: at 4.000m
136
15.10.1943
11:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 4.000m
137
20.10.1943
7:15 P-39 9./JG 52 39 472: at 4.000m
138
20.10.1943
7:20 P-39 9./JG 52 39 393: at 3.500m
139
20.10.1943
14:42 P-39 9./JG 52 39 534: at 1.500m
140
21.10.1943
7:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 39 481: at 4.500m
141
24.10.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 753: at 2.000m
142
24.10.1943
14:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 534: at 3.500m
143
25.10.1943
10:00 Pe-2 9./JG 52 49 523: at 6.500m
144
25.10.1943
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 182: at 2.000m
145
26.10.1943
8:08 P-39 9./JG 52 57 181: at 4.000m
146
26.10.1943
8:15 P-39 9./JG 52 57 153: at 4.500m
147
29.10.1943
8:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 38 151: at 5.500m
148
29.10.1943
11:05 P-39 9./JG 52 29 499: at 2.000m
149
7.12.1943
13:46 LaGG 9./JG 52 SSE Dneprovka: 4.000m
150
13.12.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 S Jsnigirevka: at 900m
151
15.12.1943
12:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Chervonovershka: at 800m
152
15.12.1943
12:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 N Verblyuzhka: at 700m
153
15.12.1943
14:16 LaGG 9./JG 52 NNE Chervonovershka: at 900m
154
17.12.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 E Novgorotka: at 5.000m
155
17.12.1943
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 NE Novgorotka: at 4.000m
156
17.12.1943
14:24 P-39 9./JG 52 S Verblyuzhka: at 4.000m
157
20.12.1943
9:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 NE Verchniy: at 200m
158
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 W Tomakovka: at 250m
159
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Verchniy: at 200m
160
3.1.1944
12:10 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 38 893 at 1.000m [Novo Krasnoye]
161
7.1.1944
14:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29361 at 4.000m
162
7.1.1944
14:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29344 at 3.000m
163
8.1.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29371 at 3.500m
164
8.1.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 29352 at 3.000m
165
8.1.1944
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 29552 at 4.000m
166
16.1.1944
10:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29 343 at 3.500m
167
16.1.1944
10:26 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 464 at 4.000m
168
16.1.1944
10:47 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 492 at 4.000m
169
17.1.1944
9:44 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 512 at 3.000m
170
17.1.1944
12:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 521 at 2.500m
171
17.1.1944
12:24 Pe-2 9./JG 52 19 492 at 1.000m
172
17.1.1944
14:06 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 341 at 4.000m
173
23.1.1944
11:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 29342 at 3.000m
174
23.1.1944
13:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 19262 at 1.000m
175
23.1.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19264 at 1.000m
176
23.1.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 19293 at 1.000m
177
24.1.1944
10:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 19 262 at 2.000m
178
30.1.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 274 at 400m
179
30.1.1944
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 283 at 300m
180
30.1.1944
12:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 4.000m
181
30.1.1944
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 243 at 3.000m
182
30.1.1944
14:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 261 at 2.000m
183
30.1.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 432 at 2.300m
184
31.1.1944
11:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
185
31.1.1944
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 132 at 1.200m
186
1.2.1944
8:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 284 at 800m
187
1.2.1944
10:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 162 at 2.500m
188
1.2.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
189
1.2.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 124 at 1.500m
190
1.2.1944
12:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 134 at 1.000m
191
3.2.1944
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 152 at 400m
192
4.2.1944
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 10 783 at 3.500m
193
26.2.1944
9:08 P-39 9./JG 52 29 381: at 3.000m
194
26.2.1944
9:16 P-39 9./JG 52 29 384: at 3.000m
195
26.2.1944
11:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 4.000m
196
26.2.1944
11:48 P-39 9./JG 52 29 521: at 3.000m
197
26.2.1944
11:53 P-39 9./JG 52 29 514: at 3.000m
198
26.2.1944
11:58 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.500m
199
26.2.1944
12:03 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.000m
200
26.2.1944
14:40 P-39 9./JG 52 29 552: at 2.500m
201
26.2.1944
14:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 531: at 3.000m
202
26.2.1944
14:50 P-39 9./JG 52 29 512: at 2.000m
203
23.4.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 351: at 1.500m
204
24.4.1944
11:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 474: at 2.000m
205
24.4.1944
12:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 472: at 5.000m
206
26.4.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 474: at 4.000m
207
26.4.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 35 481: at 4.000m
208
3.5.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 273: at 2.000m
209
4.5.1944
16:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 3.500m
210
4.5.1944
17:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 5.000m
211
4.5.1944
17:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 214: at 2.500m
212
5.5.1944
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 421: at 3.000m
213
5.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 614: at 2.000m
214
5.5.1944
10:48 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 2.000m
215
5.5.1944
10:54 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 532: at 1.500m
216
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 274: at 1.500m
217
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 423: at 4.500m
218
6.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 442: at 2.500m
219
7.5.1944
9:22 P-39 9./JG 52 35 644: at 5.000m
220
7.5.1944
9:30 P-39 9./JG 52 35 641: at 5.000m
221
7.5.1944
9:40 P-39 9./JG 52 35 483: at 3.500m
222
8.5.1944
9:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 1.000m
223
8.5.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 362: at 4.000m
224
20.5.1944
12:24 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 754: at 2.500m
225
20.5.1944
18:35 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 711: at 2.000m
226
29.5.1944
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 764L tiefst.
227
30.5.1944
11:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 644: at 3.500m
228
30.5.1944
14:38 P-39 9./JG 52 78 613: at 4.000m
229
31.5.1944
18:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 647: at 4.000m
230
31.5.1944
18:08 P-39 9./JG 52 78 614: at 5.000m
231
31.5.1944
18:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 3.500m
232
1.6.1944
11:31 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 677: at 200m
233
1.6.1944
11:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 813: at 2.000m
234
1.6.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 648: at 2.000m
235
1.6.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 673: at 1.000m
236
1.6.1944
14:32 P-39 9./JG 52 78 673: at 2.000m
237
1.6.1944
14:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 675: at 1.000m
238
2.6.1944
17:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 685: at 4.000m
239
2.6.1944
17:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 640: at 4.000m
240
3.6.1944
13:30 P-39 9./JG 52 78 825: at 4.000m
241
3.6.1944
13:33 P-39 9./JG 52 78 813: at 3.000m
242
3.6.1944
14:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 733: at 500m
243
3.6.1944
16:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 568: at 600m
244
4.6.1944
15:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 1.500m
245
4.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 595: at 200m
246
4.6.1944
17:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 596: at 2.000m
247
4.6.1944
17:23 P-39 9./JG 52 78 591: at 2.500m
248
4.6.1944
17:53 P-39 9./JG 52 78 590: at 2.000m
249
4.6.1944
18:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 565: at 2.000m
250
4.6.1944
18:18 P-39 9./JG 52 78 560: at 2.000m
251
5.6.1944
13:12 P-39 9./JG 52 25km NW Jasi: at 5.000m
252
5.6.1944
13:19 P-39 9./JG 52 5km W Jasi: at 5.000m
253
5.6.1944
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 582: at 3.500m
254
5.6.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 722: at 100m
255
5.6.1944
18:07 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 562: at 2.500m
256
5.6.1944
18:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 674: at 5.000m
257
5.6.1944
18:43 P-39 9./JG 52 78 583: at 4.000m
258
6.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 598: at 600m
259
6.6.1944
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 591: at 1.000m
260
6.6.1944
19:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 582: at 1.500m
261
6.6.1944
19:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 569: at 1.000m
262
6.6.1944
19:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 728: at 800m
263
12.6.1944
14:00 P-39 9./JG 52 78 862: at 1.500m
264
12.6.1944
14:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 831: at 3.000m
265
24.6.1944
9:50 Mustang 9./JG 52 65 136: at 3.000m
266
27.6.1944
18:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 229: at 3.000m
267
27.6.1944
18:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 245: at 2.000m
268
1.7.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 173: at 4.000m
269
1.7.1944
17:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 179: at 3.000m
270
15.8.1944
11:43 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 01 633 at 1.500m
271
15.8.1944
11:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663 at 1.500m
272
17.8.1944
12:25 P-39 9./JG 52 11 267 at 3.000m
273
17.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 273 at 5.000m
274
17.8.1944
15:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 277 at 800m
275
18.8.1944
16:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 272 at 500m
276
20.8.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 779 at 1.500m
277
20.8.1944
12:03 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 757 at 1.200m
278
20.8.1944
12:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 724 at 1.200m
279
22.8.1944
12:20 P-39 9./JG 52 11 274: at 3.000m
280
22.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 335: at 2.000m
281
22.8.1944
12:31 P-39 9./JG 52 11 339: at 2.000m
282
22.8.1944
15:17 P-39 9./JG 52 11 411: at 2.000m
283
22.8.1944
15:22 P-39 9./JG 52 11 271: at 1.500m
284
23.8.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 411: at 1.000m
285
23.8.1944
14:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 413: at 1.200m
286
23.8.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 278: at 1.000m
287
23.8.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.500m
288
23.8.1944
17:12 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 333: at 1.500m
289
23.8.1944
17:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 412: at 1.200m
290
23.8.1944
17:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.000m
291
23.8.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 444: at 3.500m
292
24.8.1944
13:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 417: at 1.500m
293
24.8.1944
13:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 416: at 2.000m
294
24.8.1944
13:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.200m
295
24.8.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 427: at 1.500m
296
24.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 419: at 1.000m
297
24.8.1944
13:40 P-39 9./JG 52 11 443: at 3.000m
298
24.8.1944
16:00 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 335: at 1.500m
299
24.8.1944
16:03 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.200m
300
24.8.1944
16:06 P-39 9./JG 52 11 447: at 1.200m
301
24.8.1944
16:10 P-39 9./JG 52 11 441: at 1.000m
302
24.8.1944
16:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 422: no height
303
25.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663: at 200m
304
27.8.1944
18:00 P-39 9./JG 52 11 353: at 2.500m
305
27.10.1944
10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306
31.10.1944
15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307?
1.11.1944
14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307?
7.11.1944
13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308
13.11.1944
14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309
13.11.1944
14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310
13.11.1944
14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311
13.11.1944
14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312
14.11.1944
11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313
14.11.1944
11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m
314
16.11.1944
8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315
16.11.1944
8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316
17.11.1944
14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m
317
22.11.1944
11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318
22.11.1944
11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322
22.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
323
23.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
328
5.12.1944
13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329
5.12.1944
13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m
330
9.12.1944
13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331
9.12.1944
13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m
332
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
333
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
334
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
335
I.-II.1945
- Boston III Stab I./JG 52 or Mitchell
336
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
337
4.2.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 -
338
20.2.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
339
20.2.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
340
6.3.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
341
6.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
342
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
343
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
344
9.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
345
11.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
346
16.3.1945
- E/a Stab I./JG 52 -
347
??.3.1945
- Mustang Stab I./JG 52 -
348
10.4.1945
- B-26 Stab I./JG 52 -
349
11.4.1945
- Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
350
17.4.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
351
25.4.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
352
8.5.1945
8:30-9:20 Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 Brün area: at 4000m
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html
I guess American and British pilots were just lucky that he was on the eastern front.
He shot down 5 Americans over Romania and the western front had plenty of experten there as well. Thankfully the Germans had major fuel and munitions supply problems or the death toll to our air forces would have been much higher. Most have no idea that the Eighth Air Force suffered more casualties than all the USMC losses in the Pacific theatre. And they were one of FOUR air forces fighting the Germans.
Part of the reason for the extremely high score of aerial victories was that German pilots didn't rotate through training commands the way our pilots did......the Germans usually fought until they died.
Yeah? So? You're merely supporting my point. The Americans had so many pilots and aircraft we could quite literally bury the Soviet Air Force under numbers the Germans could never hope to field. The Soviets had more artillery than probably everyone else on the planet combined, we had an air force that was likewise bigger, and more capable, than all the rest of the world combined.
Discombobulated
Gold Member
Most of the victories in those high scores were achieved before 1944 against inferior aircraft flown by pilots trained for simple tactics Both air combat tactics and the quality of aircraft improved greatly over time.
The aircraft certainly did, but not the tactics. The experten were scoring in droves even after the better aircraft showed up. They were just that good. Below is Hartmanns list of victories and as you can see 1944 was a very good year for him....
No. Date Time A/C Type Unit Location / Comments
1
5.11.1942
12:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 44 793 at 400m
2
27.1.1943
11:30 MiG-1 7./JG 52 15 112: at 2.500m
3
9.2.1943
10:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 86 722: at 1.000m
4
10.2.1943
6:15 Boston 7./JG 52 86 671: at 3.200m
5
24.3.1943
13:00 Il-2 7./JG 52 86 712: at 20m
6
27.3.1943
11:50 I-16 7./JG 52 85 171: at 800m
7
15.4.1943
15:33 P-39 7./JG 52 85 192: at 200m
8
26.4.1943
11:35 R-5 7./JG 52 86 722: at 700m
9
28.4.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 122: at 5.000m
10
30.4.1943
16:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 712: at 4.000m
11
30.4.1943
16:20 LaGG-3 7./JG 52 85 752: at 4.000m
12
7.5.1943
8:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 262: at 5.000m
13
7.5.1943
16:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 171: at 500m
14
11.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 75 234: at 3.000m
15
11.5.1943
5:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 144: at 5.000m
16
15.5.1943
12:10 U-2 7./JG 52 86 544: tiefflug
17
23.5.1943
5:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 85 253: at 5.000m
18
5.7.1943
3:40 Il-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 663 at 300m
19
5.7.1943
7:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 151 at 1.500m
20
5.7.1943
14:00 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 333 at 200m
21
5.7.1943
18:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 124 at 2.000m
22
7.7.1943
3:50 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 183: at 500m
23
7.7.1943
3:52 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 154: at 200m
24
7.7.1943
6:05 Il-2 7./JG 52 61 331: at 500m
25
7.7.1943
6:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 182: at 1.000m
26
7.7.1943
17:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 214: at 3.000m
27
7.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 873: at 2.000m
28
7.7.1943
17:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 792: at 3.500m
29
8.7.1943
9:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 223: at 2.500m
30
8.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 221: at 2.500m
31
8.7.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.500m
32
8.7.1943
18:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 134: at 1.000m
33
9.7.1943
7:25 IL-2 m.H. 7./JG 52 61 272: at 500m
34
9.7.1943
9:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 871: at 2.000m
35
9.7.1943
9:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 844d: at 2.000m
36
10.7.1943
7:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 872: at 2.000m
37
11.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 62 883: at 2.600m
38
15.7.1943
17:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 562: at 1.500m
39
16.7.1943
14:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 661: at 1.500m
40
17.7.1943
19:25 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 974: at 1.800m
41
31.7.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 623: at 1.000m
42
31.7.1943
16:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 541: at 3.000m
43
1.8.1943
11:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 64 523 at 4.500m
44
1.8.1943
14:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 663 at 3.000m
45
1.8.1943
17:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 491 at 3.000m
46
1.8.1943
19:21 LaGG 7./JG 52 53 131 at 2.000m
47
1.8.1943
19:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 54 584 at 2.500m
48
3.8.1943
11:17 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
49
3.8.1943
11:22 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 412 at 1.000m
50
3.8.1943
11:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 192 at 1.000m
51
3.8.1943
18:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 193 at 3.000m
52
4.8.1943
10:19 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.500m
53
4.8.1943
10:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 331 at 2.000m
54
4.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 334 at 1.000m
55
4.8.1943
13:43 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 343 at 2.500m
56
4.8.1943
15:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 51 462 at 3.000m
57
5.8.1943
9:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 351 at 3.000m
58
5.8.1943
11:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 323 at 4.000m
59
5.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 314 at 3.500m
60
5.8.1943
17:04 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 333 at 4.000m
61
5.8.1943
17:27 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 441 at 5.000m
62
6.8.1943
16:08 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 393 at 3.500m
63
7.8.1943
8:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 391 at 3.000m
64
7.8.1943
8:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 384 at 2.500m
65
7.8.1943
11:55 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 561 at 4.000m
66
7.8.1943
12:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 551 at 3.500m
67
7.8.1943
12:20 Pe-2 7./JG 52 61 373 at 2.000m
68
8.8.1943
7:15 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 572 at 3.000m
69
8.8.1943
9:53 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 632 at 4.000m
70
8.8.1943
10:18 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 612 at 3.000m
71
8.8.1943
12:54 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 253 at 3.000m
72
9.8.1943
6:14 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 821: at 400m
73
9.8.1943
9:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 581: at 4.000m
74
9.8.1943
16:30 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 561: at 4.000m
75
9.8.1943
16:40 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 814: at 4.500m
76
12.8.1943
8:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 772: at 5.000m
77
15.8.1943
9:14 Pe-2 7./JG 52 60 214: at 4.500m
78
15.8.1943
18:10 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 762: at 3.000m
79
17.8.1943
5:20 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 841: at 4.500m
80
17.8.1943
12:30 P-39 7./JG 52 70 791: at 2.500m
81
17.8.1943
13:05 LaGG 7./JG 52 70 842: at 5.000m
82
17.8.1943
17:40 P-39 7./JG 52 70 871: at 3.500m
83
18.8.1943
10:00 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 193: at 3.000m
84
18.8.1943
12:45 LaGG 7./JG 52 61 792: at 3.000m
85
18.8.1943
12:55 LaGG 7./JG 52 60 134: at 2.000m
86
19.8.1943
10:35 LaGG 7./JG 52 88 263: at 5.000m
87
19.8.1943
10:50 LaGG 7./JG 52 98 132: at 3.500m
88
19.8.1943
16:25 P-39 7./JG 52 88 281: at 3.000m
89
20.8.1943
6:07 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
90
20.8.1943
6:08 Il-2 7./JG 52 88 263: at 50m
91
15.9.1943
12:20 Yak-9 9./JG 52 68 314: at 2.000m
92
18.9.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 69 563: at 4.000m
93
18.9.1943
10:30 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 68 391: at 4.000m
94
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 392: at 5.000m
95
18.9.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 68 332: at 4.000m
96
19.9.1943
14:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 6614: at 1.200m
97
19.9.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 56 599: at 800m
98
20.9.1943
13:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 59 394: at 2.000m
99
20.9.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 59 474: at 2.000m
100
20.9.1943
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 6.000m
101
20.9.1943
15:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 334: at 2.000m
102
25.9.1943
7:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 532: at 3.000m
103
25.9.1943
12:43 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 831: at 5.000m
104
25.9.1943
16:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.000m
105
26.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 691: at 5.000m
106
26.9.1943
7:05 P-39 9./JG 52 58 554: at 600m
107
26.9.1943
9:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 592: at 6.000m
108
27.9.1943
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 611: at 4.600m
109
27.9.1943
11:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 643: at 3.000m
110
28.9.1943
16:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641: at 2.000m
111
29.9.1943
6:56 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 644: at 4.000m
112
29.9.1943
8:55 P-39 9./JG 52 58 682: at 4.000m
113
30.9.1943
6:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 681: at 4.500m
114
30.9.1943
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 58 732: at 2.500m
115
30.9.1943
16:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 583: at 5.500m
116
1.10.1943
12:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 641 at 5.000m
117
1.10.1943
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 762 at 3.500m
118
2.10.1943
8:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 833 at 5.000m
119
2.10.1943
8:50 Pe-2 9./JG 52 58 762 at 6.500m
120
2.10.1943
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 58 851 at 5.000m
121
2.10.1943
13:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 672 at 4.000m
122
3.10.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 592: at 3.500m
123
3.10.1943
16:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 591 at 2.000m
124
4.10.1943
7:25 P-39 9./JG 52 58 614 at 5.000m
125
11.10.1943
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 124: at 2.000m
126
12.10.1943
7:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 134: at 1.500m
127
12.10.1943
7:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 241: at 2.000m
128
12.10.1943
7:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 211: at 1.000m
129
12.10.1943
15:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 161: at 1.000m
130
13.10.1943
10:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 3.000m
131
14.10.1943
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 184: at 4.000m
132
14.10.1943
8:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 151: at 3.500m
133
14.10.1943
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 3.000m
134
15.10.1943
8:59 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 153: at 4.000m
135
15.10.1943
9:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 154: at 4.000m
136
15.10.1943
11:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 58 181: at 4.000m
137
20.10.1943
7:15 P-39 9./JG 52 39 472: at 4.000m
138
20.10.1943
7:20 P-39 9./JG 52 39 393: at 3.500m
139
20.10.1943
14:42 P-39 9./JG 52 39 534: at 1.500m
140
21.10.1943
7:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 39 481: at 4.500m
141
24.10.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 753: at 2.000m
142
24.10.1943
14:35 P-39 9./JG 52 58 534: at 3.500m
143
25.10.1943
10:00 Pe-2 9./JG 52 49 523: at 6.500m
144
25.10.1943
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 57 182: at 2.000m
145
26.10.1943
8:08 P-39 9./JG 52 57 181: at 4.000m
146
26.10.1943
8:15 P-39 9./JG 52 57 153: at 4.500m
147
29.10.1943
8:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 38 151: at 5.500m
148
29.10.1943
11:05 P-39 9./JG 52 29 499: at 2.000m
149
7.12.1943
13:46 LaGG 9./JG 52 SSE Dneprovka: 4.000m
150
13.12.1943
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 S Jsnigirevka: at 900m
151
15.12.1943
12:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Chervonovershka: at 800m
152
15.12.1943
12:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 N Verblyuzhka: at 700m
153
15.12.1943
14:16 LaGG 9./JG 52 NNE Chervonovershka: at 900m
154
17.12.1943
14:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 E Novgorotka: at 5.000m
155
17.12.1943
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 NE Novgorotka: at 4.000m
156
17.12.1943
14:24 P-39 9./JG 52 S Verblyuzhka: at 4.000m
157
20.12.1943
9:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 NE Verchniy: at 200m
158
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 W Tomakovka: at 250m
159
20.12.1943
12:13 LaGG 9./JG 52 NW Verchniy: at 200m
160
3.1.1944
12:10 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 38 893 at 1.000m [Novo Krasnoye]
161
7.1.1944
14:20 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29361 at 4.000m
162
7.1.1944
14:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 29344 at 3.000m
163
8.1.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29371 at 3.500m
164
8.1.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 29352 at 3.000m
165
8.1.1944
14:30 P-39 9./JG 52 29552 at 4.000m
166
16.1.1944
10:15 P-39 9./JG 52 29 343 at 3.500m
167
16.1.1944
10:26 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 464 at 4.000m
168
16.1.1944
10:47 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 492 at 4.000m
169
17.1.1944
9:44 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 512 at 3.000m
170
17.1.1944
12:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 521 at 2.500m
171
17.1.1944
12:24 Pe-2 9./JG 52 19 492 at 1.000m
172
17.1.1944
14:06 LaGG 9./JG 52 29 341 at 4.000m
173
23.1.1944
11:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 29342 at 3.000m
174
23.1.1944
13:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 19262 at 1.000m
175
23.1.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19264 at 1.000m
176
23.1.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 19293 at 1.000m
177
24.1.1944
10:25 LaGG-3 9./JG 52 19 262 at 2.000m
178
30.1.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 274 at 400m
179
30.1.1944
10:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 283 at 300m
180
30.1.1944
12:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 4.000m
181
30.1.1944
12:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 243 at 3.000m
182
30.1.1944
14:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 261 at 2.000m
183
30.1.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 432 at 2.300m
184
31.1.1944
11:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
185
31.1.1944
11:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 132 at 1.200m
186
1.2.1944
8:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 284 at 800m
187
1.2.1944
10:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 162 at 2.500m
188
1.2.1944
10:05 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 241 at 2.000m
189
1.2.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 124 at 1.500m
190
1.2.1944
12:02 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 134 at 1.000m
191
3.2.1944
13:40 LaGG 9./JG 52 19 152 at 400m
192
4.2.1944
11:40 P-39 9./JG 52 10 783 at 3.500m
193
26.2.1944
9:08 P-39 9./JG 52 29 381: at 3.000m
194
26.2.1944
9:16 P-39 9./JG 52 29 384: at 3.000m
195
26.2.1944
11:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 4.000m
196
26.2.1944
11:48 P-39 9./JG 52 29 521: at 3.000m
197
26.2.1944
11:53 P-39 9./JG 52 29 514: at 3.000m
198
26.2.1944
11:58 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.500m
199
26.2.1944
12:03 P-39 9./JG 52 29 524: at 2.000m
200
26.2.1944
14:40 P-39 9./JG 52 29 552: at 2.500m
201
26.2.1944
14:45 P-39 9./JG 52 29 531: at 3.000m
202
26.2.1944
14:50 P-39 9./JG 52 29 512: at 2.000m
203
23.4.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 351: at 1.500m
204
24.4.1944
11:55 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 474: at 2.000m
205
24.4.1944
12:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 472: at 5.000m
206
26.4.1944
14:15 P-39 9./JG 52 35 474: at 4.000m
207
26.4.1944
14:20 P-39 9./JG 52 35 481: at 4.000m
208
3.5.1944
15:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 273: at 2.000m
209
4.5.1944
16:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 3.500m
210
4.5.1944
17:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 424: at 5.000m
211
4.5.1944
17:50 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 214: at 2.500m
212
5.5.1944
8:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 421: at 3.000m
213
5.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 614: at 2.000m
214
5.5.1944
10:48 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 2.000m
215
5.5.1944
10:54 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 532: at 1.500m
216
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 274: at 1.500m
217
5.5.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 423: at 4.500m
218
6.5.1944
10:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 442: at 2.500m
219
7.5.1944
9:22 P-39 9./JG 52 35 644: at 5.000m
220
7.5.1944
9:30 P-39 9./JG 52 35 641: at 5.000m
221
7.5.1944
9:40 P-39 9./JG 52 35 483: at 3.500m
222
8.5.1944
9:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 612: at 1.000m
223
8.5.1944
13:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 35 362: at 4.000m
224
20.5.1944
12:24 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 754: at 2.500m
225
20.5.1944
18:35 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 98 711: at 2.000m
226
29.5.1944
15:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 764L tiefst.
227
30.5.1944
11:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 644: at 3.500m
228
30.5.1944
14:38 P-39 9./JG 52 78 613: at 4.000m
229
31.5.1944
18:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 647: at 4.000m
230
31.5.1944
18:08 P-39 9./JG 52 78 614: at 5.000m
231
31.5.1944
18:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 3.500m
232
1.6.1944
11:31 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 677: at 200m
233
1.6.1944
11:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 813: at 2.000m
234
1.6.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 648: at 2.000m
235
1.6.1944
14:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 673: at 1.000m
236
1.6.1944
14:32 P-39 9./JG 52 78 673: at 2.000m
237
1.6.1944
14:35 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 675: at 1.000m
238
2.6.1944
17:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 685: at 4.000m
239
2.6.1944
17:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 640: at 4.000m
240
3.6.1944
13:30 P-39 9./JG 52 78 825: at 4.000m
241
3.6.1944
13:33 P-39 9./JG 52 78 813: at 3.000m
242
3.6.1944
14:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 733: at 500m
243
3.6.1944
16:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 568: at 600m
244
4.6.1944
15:10 P-39 9./JG 52 78 733: at 1.500m
245
4.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 595: at 200m
246
4.6.1944
17:13 P-39 9./JG 52 78 596: at 2.000m
247
4.6.1944
17:23 P-39 9./JG 52 78 591: at 2.500m
248
4.6.1944
17:53 P-39 9./JG 52 78 590: at 2.000m
249
4.6.1944
18:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 565: at 2.000m
250
4.6.1944
18:18 P-39 9./JG 52 78 560: at 2.000m
251
5.6.1944
13:12 P-39 9./JG 52 25km NW Jasi: at 5.000m
252
5.6.1944
13:19 P-39 9./JG 52 5km W Jasi: at 5.000m
253
5.6.1944
15:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 582: at 3.500m
254
5.6.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 722: at 100m
255
5.6.1944
18:07 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 562: at 2.500m
256
5.6.1944
18:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 674: at 5.000m
257
5.6.1944
18:43 P-39 9./JG 52 78 583: at 4.000m
258
6.6.1944
15:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 598: at 600m
259
6.6.1944
15:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 78 591: at 1.000m
260
6.6.1944
19:15 P-39 9./JG 52 78 582: at 1.500m
261
6.6.1944
19:25 P-39 9./JG 52 78 569: at 1.000m
262
6.6.1944
19:35 P-39 9./JG 52 78 728: at 800m
263
12.6.1944
14:00 P-39 9./JG 52 78 862: at 1.500m
264
12.6.1944
14:05 P-39 9./JG 52 78 831: at 3.000m
265
24.6.1944
9:50 Mustang 9./JG 52 65 136: at 3.000m
266
27.6.1944
18:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 229: at 3.000m
267
27.6.1944
18:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 85 245: at 2.000m
268
1.7.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 173: at 4.000m
269
1.7.1944
17:32 LaGG 9./JG 52 94 179: at 3.000m
270
15.8.1944
11:43 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 01 633 at 1.500m
271
15.8.1944
11:45 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663 at 1.500m
272
17.8.1944
12:25 P-39 9./JG 52 11 267 at 3.000m
273
17.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 273 at 5.000m
274
17.8.1944
15:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 277 at 800m
275
18.8.1944
16:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 272 at 500m
276
20.8.1944
12:00 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 779 at 1.500m
277
20.8.1944
12:03 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 757 at 1.200m
278
20.8.1944
12:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 724 at 1.200m
279
22.8.1944
12:20 P-39 9./JG 52 11 274: at 3.000m
280
22.8.1944
12:30 P-39 9./JG 52 11 335: at 2.000m
281
22.8.1944
12:31 P-39 9./JG 52 11 339: at 2.000m
282
22.8.1944
15:17 P-39 9./JG 52 11 411: at 2.000m
283
22.8.1944
15:22 P-39 9./JG 52 11 271: at 1.500m
284
23.8.1944
14:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 411: at 1.000m
285
23.8.1944
14:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 413: at 1.200m
286
23.8.1944
14:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 278: at 1.000m
287
23.8.1944
17:10 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.500m
288
23.8.1944
17:12 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 333: at 1.500m
289
23.8.1944
17:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 412: at 1.200m
290
23.8.1944
17:17 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.000m
291
23.8.1944
17:30 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 444: at 3.500m
292
24.8.1944
13:15 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 417: at 1.500m
293
24.8.1944
13:18 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 416: at 2.000m
294
24.8.1944
13:19 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 421: at 1.200m
295
24.8.1944
13:25 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 427: at 1.500m
296
24.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 419: at 1.000m
297
24.8.1944
13:40 P-39 9./JG 52 11 443: at 3.000m
298
24.8.1944
16:00 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 335: at 1.500m
299
24.8.1944
16:03 LaGG-5 9./JG 52 11 363: at 1.200m
300
24.8.1944
16:06 P-39 9./JG 52 11 447: at 1.200m
301
24.8.1944
16:10 P-39 9./JG 52 11 441: at 1.000m
302
24.8.1944
16:20 LaGG 9./JG 52 11 422: no height
303
25.8.1944
13:27 LaGG 9./JG 52 01 663: at 200m
304
27.8.1944
18:00 P-39 9./JG 52 11 353: at 2.500m
305
27.10.1944
10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306
31.10.1944
15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307?
1.11.1944
14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307?
7.11.1944
13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308
13.11.1944
14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309
13.11.1944
14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310
13.11.1944
14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311
13.11.1944
14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312
14.11.1944
11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313
14.11.1944
11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m
314
16.11.1944
8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315
16.11.1944
8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316
17.11.1944
14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m
317
22.11.1944
11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318
22.11.1944
11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321
22.11.1944
- Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322
22.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
323
23.11.1944
- Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327
23.11.1944
- Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
328
5.12.1944
13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329
5.12.1944
13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m
330
9.12.1944
13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331
9.12.1944
13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m
332
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
333
I.-II.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
334
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
335
I.-II.1945
- Boston III Stab I./JG 52 or Mitchell
336
I.-II.1945
- Il-2 Stab I./JG 52 -
337
4.2.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 -
338
20.2.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
339
20.2.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
340
6.3.1945
- La-5 Stab I./JG 52 -
341
6.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
342
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
343
7.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
344
9.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
345
11.3.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
346
16.3.1945
- E/a Stab I./JG 52 -
347
??.3.1945
- Mustang Stab I./JG 52 -
348
10.4.1945
- B-26 Stab I./JG 52 -
349
11.4.1945
- Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
350
17.4.1945
- Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
351
25.4.1945
- P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
352
8.5.1945
8:30-9:20 Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 Brün area: at 4000m
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html
I guess American and British pilots were just lucky that he was on the eastern front.
He shot down 5 Americans over Romania and the western front had plenty of experten there as well. Thankfully the Germans had major fuel and munitions supply problems or the death toll to our air forces would have been much higher. Most have no idea that the Eighth Air Force suffered more casualties than all the USMC losses in the Pacific theatre. And they were one of FOUR air forces fighting the Germans.
Part of the reason for the extremely high score of aerial victories was that German pilots didn't rotate through training commands the way our pilots did......the Germans usually fought until they died.
Yeah? So? You're merely supporting my point. The Americans had so many pilots and aircraft we could quite literally bury the Soviet Air Force under numbers the Germans could never hope to field. The Soviets had more artillery than probably everyone else on the planet combined, we had an air force that was likewise bigger, and more capable, than all the rest of the world combined.
I certainly wouldn't dispute that. I think Patton's ideas for invading the Soviet Union would have had little chance for success in any case, air power alone is no guarantee of victory.
NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
Discombobulated
Gold Member
Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
- Aug 4, 2009
- 281,395
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- 2,615
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
- Thread starter
- #212
You have a limited view of the meaning of politics.
pol·i·tics
ˈpäləˌtiks/
noun
- the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with being commander of the 3rd Army.
But it does show the fallacy in your statement "Patton was a soldier, not a politician."
Stalin and FDR saw him as a political threat.
I may post a thread on the result thereof.....if you ask nicely and promise to take notes.
A political threat? I had no idea Patton was running for office.
That's because you're a moron.
Did Monica Lewinsky run for office?
"Inside the White House, the debate goes on about the best way to destroy That Woman, as the President called Monica Lewinsky."
Liberties The Slander Strategy - New York Times
Carefully consider the word "destroy" when you consider the other political threat, George Patton.
Monica Lewinsky? I don't get it.......did FDR leave cum stains on Gen. Patton's uniform?
You're right....you don't get it.
- Thread starter
- #213
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
Go back a bit further: it was over 22 June 1941.
- Thread starter
- #214
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
As early as 1939, the head of the Abwehr, Wm. Canaris, was attempting to contact the Brits.
Later, Stalin demanded that no surrender be allowed...he demanded that Germany be crushed....of course, Roosevelt hopped right to it...the Morgenthau Plan.
War could have been over years earlier.
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Patton wanted to team up with willing elements of the Nazi Wehrmacht against the Soviets? Am I getting that right?
And he wanted to do that right at the time when the full scope of the Nazi holocaust was reaching the rest of world?
lol, good luck.
I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
Go back a bit further: it was over 22 June 1941.
Not necessarily. Had Hitler not sent the army south to Stalingrad, and instead concentrated in the center and north, it was a very winnable war. He, and the OKH both got lost in the fact that maps are maps. They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them.
- Thread starter
- #216
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
Go back a bit further: it was over 22 June 1941.
Not necessarily. Had Hitler not sent the army south to Stalingrad, and instead concentrated in the center and north, it was a very winnable war. He, and the OKH both got lost in the fact that maps are maps. They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them.
When he turned east....it was the beginning of the end.
He knew the problem that was coming....that's why he tried in June.
He could not win a land war against 'Stalin's three greatest generals: December, January, February.'
Had he not done so.....America and Britain would have still won.
- Thread starter
- #217
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?I believe that is correct, his idea was to rearm the Germans and go to war with the Soviet Union.
Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
Go back a bit further: it was over 22 June 1941.
Not necessarily. Had Hitler not sent the army south to Stalingrad, and instead concentrated in the center and north, it was a very winnable war. He, and the OKH both got lost in the fact that maps are maps. They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them.
"They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them."
I think he knew that.
. "Napoleon began his invasion 550 miles from Moscow and 420 miles from St. Petersburg. Hitler began his invasion from a similar distance." Why Russia Is Marching mdash and Eastern Europe Is Afraid - theTrumpet.com How did that turn out for the attackers?
Perhaps he didn't realize that Stalin didn't care how many he lost.
"In 1945 Zhukov is reported to have said to US General Dwight D. Eisenhower, "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." The shear weight of numbers eventually drove the Germans back, along with the Soviet leadership's determination not to relent, whatever the cost." Georgy Zhukov hero file
regent
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- Jan 30, 2012
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I remember first hearing of Patton when he slapped a hospitalized GI, maybe two. I wonder if the slapping incidents started Patton on his way to fame? Seems generals do like to see their name's in print, I think that's all MacArthur lived for. Of course the GI's had a number of names for MacArthur, one was "Stick with Mac and never get back." Poor Patton only had one, "Old blood and guts." Guess his pearl handled guns never were even acknowledged by anyone but the press. All in all pretty stupid.
I remember first hearing of Patton when he slapped a hospitalized GI, maybe two. I wonder if the slapping incidents started Patton on his way to fame? Seems generals do like to see their name's in print, I think that's all MacArthur lived for. Of course the GI's had a number of names for MacArthur, one was "Stick with Mac and never get back." Poor Patton only had one, "Old blood and guts." Guess his pearl handled guns never were even acknowledged by anyone but the press. All in all pretty stupid.
They were ivory handled. As Patton said, pearl handled guns are for pimps.
By 1944, the Soviets were kicking their asses. Of course Germans wanted an out. Did they really think they could get off the hook with the soviets after what they had done?Yup. The Germans themselves wanted to surrender to the Western Allies. They would have handed over everyone we wanted, they just wanted to be able to continue the war against the Soviets, and this was offered in the middle of 1944.
By the end of the war, the Soviets had been bled dry. They no longer had the huge advantage in people they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war. Had the US gone to war with them, with German help. I have no doubt we would have won. It would however certainly have been a very bloody affair.
The Soviet tanks were far better than ours. No question. They weren't as good as the Panther, but they were orders of magnitude better than ours. Even the Pershing was no match for a JSU-152 or JS-2. But, our air power would absolutely have ruled the sky's after about three to four months.
That would negate the Soviet advantage in artillery and in men. We were a fully mobile army, they weren't. They were only as mobile as they were because we gave them 600,000 trucks through lend lease. The US gave the Soviets millions of tons of munitions, food, weapons, and medicine. Had that been taken away the Soviet armies would have collapsed after a few months of combat.
The problem would have been in administering that huge area. We can't control Iraq, there is no way we could have controlled the vastly larger Soviet Union. We would still have troops there, and we would still be actively fighting partisans to this day had we attacked.
Until we invaded in the west the Germans were holding their own. Manstein was a masterful defensive general. Had Hitler not pushed for the Kursk battles the Germans would probably have been able to bleed the Soviets out even after we had invaded.
Thankfully Hitler was a moron and squandered those resources which the Germans couldn't replace.
Go back a bit further: it was over 22 June 1941.
Not necessarily. Had Hitler not sent the army south to Stalingrad, and instead concentrated in the center and north, it was a very winnable war. He, and the OKH both got lost in the fact that maps are maps. They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them.
"They forgot just how big the Soviet Union is. That cost them."
I think he knew that.
. "Napoleon began his invasion 550 miles from Moscow and 420 miles from St. Petersburg. Hitler began his invasion from a similar distance." Why Russia Is Marching mdash and Eastern Europe Is Afraid - theTrumpet.com How did that turn out for the attackers?
Perhaps he didn't realize that Stalin didn't care how many he lost.
"In 1945 Zhukov is reported to have said to US General Dwight D. Eisenhower, "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." The shear weight of numbers eventually drove the Germans back, along with the Soviet leadership's determination not to relent, whatever the cost." Georgy Zhukov hero file
The size of the Soviet army definitely took them by surprise. After cleaning the slate of the first army they thought they were done. That second army set them back. At the beginning of the war the Soviets didn't care about their people. Material was more important. By the end of the war, they needed the people. They were getting close to the end.
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