The "Palestinians" Gave Up Sovereign Claims Long Ago

[kvetch]

kvetch -- I'm not sure how serious you are about this line "since the jewish 9/11 suicide bomber samson who pulled down the twin towers and killed 3,000 innocent phillistines in a temple ". You are invoking a biblical story but only in the most reductionist way. Samson was an enslaved and tortured prisoner who was put on public display by his oppressors. He didn't wander into a pizza place uninvited and blow himself up and those around him weren't students in school but soldiers celebrating his denigration. I did enjoy your interesting use of parallel language noting the linguistic connections but I wanted to make sure that the distinctions were noted as well.

well i don't actually believe the bible stories or david or any of them are actual history

but for those who do, the key serious thing to me about the samson and other mass killings are that god asked them to be done in his name

and they think such a god is theirs and ours now and that god is what they think decides land rights in the west bank etc and not law as we know it

and they act accordingly to this day and Y-K is a settler actually doin it!!

the 9/11 thing is my spin......but the similarities are a bit spooky and gaza is still an epicentre today aint it?

so thats the context for the lingo i adopted

 

[irosie91]

Kvetch----if you ever get your hands on a bible----Old Testament-----read as much as you can bear. While reading----you have to keep in mind the fact -----that in prophecies ---especially in the babylonian captivity era-----but at other times too-----GO UP or ASCEND----actually refers to going to jerusalem or to the temple there----both in a physical and a kind of "spiritual" way ------its almost a code----it you do not KNOW that code usage------you do not understand the weird poems. When outside Israel/Judea----the "go up" or "ascend" thing can mean----going back to Israel/judea

 

[irosie91]

I believe that the bible is an HISTORICAL ACCOUNT----on a level similar to THE ODYSSEY ------ remember Heinrich Schlieman Odyseus is simply a kind of legendary hero of the Trojan war who probably does represent some REAL ROYAL GUY FROM ITHACA I have no doubt that King David did exist as to Samson----well----maybe sorta As to HISTORY----the story itself is historical in that it does refer to real cities and real ways of life during ----those days-----PRE KING amongst the Hebrews

 

[irosie91]

unlike the west bank.........that did indeed belong to jews 2,000 years ago but not now


That's ok real estate does pass from hand to hand-----historically and in the future--------The land of CANAAN has a history of ownership of land by purchase for thousands of years The history of the modern world does include -----border shifts by agreement. Someday----one of our children will be a real estate agent in Mecca

 

[kvetch]

I believe that the bible is an HISTORICAL ACCOUNT----on a level similar to THE ODYSSEY ------ remember Heinrich Schlieman Odyseus is simply a kind of legendary hero of the Trojan war who probably does represent some REAL ROYAL GUY FROM ITHACA I have no doubt that King David did exist as to Samson----well----maybe sorta As to HISTORY----the story itself is historical in that it does refer to real cities and real ways of life during ----those days-----PRE KING amongst the Hebrews

i have been to troy...in turkey opposite gallipoli...a real battleground

not that exciting...just a few old stones there now

but i agree with you

not all israeli archaeologists agree that david etc were historical, tho and as always its the honest israelis i trust

 

[YKohen]

end of non discussion, Y-K

you have no answer

Au contraire. I provided the answer. You just didn't understand it.

I realise I have a lot of research and thinking to do before i can say anything worth asking you

True- which is also why your assertions here aren't correct. You're postingbefore understanding the issues and facts.

what i do know is that your christian zionist allies are definitely twisting bible prophecies in jewish zionism's favour

That's not my cross to bear.

Just out of curiosity, which Bible prophesies would those be?

because for them the messiah has already come and those older prophecies are history now...

In Judaism, what counts is actions. That's what is important. In terms of theology, we Jews believe that they will eventually "get it" (see Rambam, Hilchot Melachim).

The whole world will- including the Jews who don't yet.

 

[irosie91]

yeah----Rambam was at times a STARRY EYED OPTIMIST-------- "i believe this " and "I believe that" ............ sometimes I wonder if the man was not a bit too influenced by the society in which he -----lived This is a line from his book (sorta I read it almost 50 years ago) "A man should walk with PURPOSE-------not wander about slowly LIKE A WOMAN"

sheeeesh

 

[YKohen]

He was the leader of the large and powerful Jewish community in Egypt, a prolific writer, philosopher, and rabbi (consulted by communities everywhere who turned to him for guidence)- and he was also the physician of Egypt's royalty and elite.

He was a powerhouse.

And actually, what he wrote on the issue more than 900 years ago is happening now.

 

[docmauser1]

.even by recognizing Israel---under specific western pressure---the organization violated its own charter that proposes to defend the residence rights of native populations....

In memorable words of Winnie Churchill "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOO!!!! ANYONE HOME????

Arab settlers, of course.

 

[kvetch]

Kvetch----if you ever get your hands on a bible----Old Testament-----read as much as you can bear. While reading----you have to keep in mind the fact -----that in prophecies ---especially in the babylonian captivity era-----but at other times too-----GO UP or ASCEND----actually refers to going to jerusalem or to the temple there----both in a physical and a kind of "spiritual" way ------its almost a code----it you do not KNOW that code usage------you do not understand the weird poems. When outside Israel/Judea----the "go up" or "ascend" thing can mean----going back to Israel/judea

Rosie this is key to what I want to understand better and you have grasped it perfectly in this post

As my mood has shifted from heavy kvetch and abuse

to wanting to love and honour our people more and be as positive as I can truly be about israel too

that will be highly therapeutic for me at a deep level

in my case there is truth about the "self-hating" jew tag

and i want rid of it...i really truly do

and even to be as zionist in the broader sense of the word as I possibly can be rather than focusing on the negative aspects

zion as I understand it is also an all embracing aspiration for full community and perfection on all levels which all people and nations can and do share in their own way

of course for jews its their / our special thing

christians adopted the word zion without the territorial claim to palestine

our english national hymn is called jerusalem....about building jerusalem in england's green and pleasant land........................by a wonderful visionsry called william blake in 1800 or so

Jerusalem Hymn

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.

the dark satanic mills are the very first factories which he hated, being a nature lover and an early socialist

so that's my project....to embrace as much, not as little as I can of zionism in both the jewish and christian sense

with your help, and thanx again for being the catalyst here!!

must go; sweetie wants me to go see a sofa!!

 

[kvetch]

.even by recognizing Israel---under specific western pressure---the organization violated its own charter that proposes to defend the residence rights of native populations....

In memorable words of Winnie Churchill "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOO!!!! ANYONE HOME????

Arab settlers, of course.

churchill was a dirty filthy racist and a war criminal.....and I'm british

he just had 2 truly great years in 1940 and 1941 and a was great writer

that apart................he stinx

 

[YKohen]

.even by recognizing Israel---under specific western pressure---the organization violated its own charter that proposes to defend the residence rights of native populations....

In memorable words of Winnie Churchill "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOO!!!! ANYONE HOME????

Arab settlers, of course.

churchill was a dirty filthy racist and a war criminal.....and I'm british

he just had 2 truly great years in 1940 and 1941 and a was great writer

that apart................he stinx

Yeah. He should have let your parents go to the ovens. That would have been the moral thing to do.

 

[irosie91]

yeah ---ok kvetch-----sure------I have the utmost faith in your uhm....'sincerity' In any case----yes----christians have picked up the "zion" as "spiritual zion" idea LONG AGO ----in fact it is a kind of
theme employed by the founders of the USA and--of course----then there are the mormons who transferred the idea to Utah -----long ago----when hubby and I were just "keeping company"-----as my Victorian grandma would describe it-------he noted all those HEBREW WORDS all over the USA "bethesda hospital" "zion" this or that I doubt you guys in england do it as much-----but over here the more RURAL you get the more hebrew splashed all over the place in names of towns, streets, parks, public institutions -----and even the most popular names of people. I believe that the more naive bible readers among the early americans did not even know that they were throwing so much ZIONISM around----they just USED words out of the "HOLY BOOK"

 

[rosends]

as far as I remember, Blake's New Jerusalem was England (Albion?). He adopted an idea. Does this mean that he abandoned, in his private practice of religion, the focal role of the actual Jerusalem? I don't know. I won't judge his personal theology by looking at his writings (or wood carvings).

 

[irosie91]

rosends----martin luther brought to christianity -----a REJECTION of all things "jewish" which is actually what he had against the MASS CEREMONY----which is actually a reaction against the fact that it is a kind of takeoff from the jewish custom of "blessing bread and wine" every other minute in response to just about any OCCASSION. There were christian writers who seemed to get into the idea that ROME is the new jerusalem-----and even came up with a magical JOURNEY TO ROME (at night of all times------ sound familiar?) by Jesus himself. To sum it up-----christians are CONFLICTED over all that jewish imagery and symbolism that crept into LIFE.

for the very pious COLONIALISTS OF AMERICA-------america got to be the NEW JERUSALEM_-----but to the DISMAY OF HANK-----they never really got over that OLD ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM OVER THERE----and lots became
willing to admit that jesus was actually jewish

 

[irosie91]

do you know what is the most accurate way to detect EARLY SENILITY (in real language ----you are referring to ---the DEMENTIA OF SENESCENCE
most commonly ALZHEIMER's DEMENTIA )

 

[YKohen]

The New Israel And The Old
Why Gentile Americans Back The Jewish State
By Walter Russell Mead

Summary: The real key to Washington's pro-Israel policy is long-lasting and broad-based support for the Jewish state among the American public at large.

... As the Truman biographer David McCullough has written, Truman's support for the Jewish state was "wildly popular" throughout the United States. A Gallup poll in June 1948 showed that almost three times as many Americans "sympathized with the Jews" as "sympathized with the Arabs." That support was no flash in the pan. Widespread gentile support for Israel is one of the most potent political forces in U.S. foreign policy, and in the last 60 years, there has never been a Gallup poll showing more Americans sympathizing with the Arabs or the Palestinians than with the Israelis.
Over time, moreover, the pro-Israel sentiment in the United States has increased, especially among non-Jews...

 

[kvetch]

In memorable words of Winnie Churchill "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."Arab settlers, of course.

churchill was a dirty filthy racist and a war criminal.....and I'm british

he just had 2 truly great years in 1940 and 1941 and a was great writer

that apart................he stinx

Yeah. He should have let your parents go to the ovens. That would have been the moral thing to do.

Y-Kohen

i find that shot of yours offensive as well as wildly inaccurate

you and I have stalin and the red army's 20 million dead to thank for saving our folk far more than anyone else

if hitler had not invaded USSR both Britain and Palestine would have been overrun with little difficulty

 

[kvetch]

The New Israel And The Old
Why Gentile Americans Back The Jewish State
By Walter Russell Mead

Summary: The real key to Washington's pro-Israel policy is long-lasting and broad-based support for the Jewish state among the American public at large.

... As the Truman biographer David McCullough has written, Truman's support for the Jewish state was "wildly popular" throughout the United States. A Gallup poll in June 1948 showed that almost three times as many Americans "sympathized with the Jews" as "sympathized with the Arabs." That support was no flash in the pan. Widespread gentile support for Israel is one of the most potent political forces in U.S. foreign policy, and in the last 60 years, there has never been a Gallup poll showing more Americans sympathizing with the Arabs or the Palestinians than with the Israelis.
Over time, moreover, the pro-Israel sentiment in the United States has increased, especially among non-Jews...

Truman regretted supporting Israel after Israel refused his constant demands to restore the pal refugees to their landsl

Eisenhower was Israel's only true USA friend when he ordered Israel, Britain and France out of Sinai and Suez

Other USA govts should have supported israel by ordering it back to 1967 borders as they could have done and there could be peace now

as it is; people like you settler folx have deliberately made peace impossible

 

[kvetch]

rosends----martin luther brought to christianity -----a REJECTION of all things "jewish" which is actually what he had against the MASS CEREMONY----which is actually a reaction against the fact that it is a kind of takeoff from the jewish custom of "blessing bread and wine" every other minute in response to just about any OCCASSION. There were christian writers who seemed to get into the idea that ROME is the new jerusalem-----and even came up with a magical JOURNEY TO ROME (at night of all times------ sound familiar?) by Jesus himself. To sum it up-----christians are CONFLICTED over all that jewish imagery and symbolism that crept into LIFE.

for the very pious COLONIALISTS OF AMERICA-------america got to be the NEW JERUSALEM_-----but to the DISMAY OF HANK-----they never really got over that OLD ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM OVER THERE----and lots became
willing to admit that jesus was actually jewish

Rosie...once yet again you're spinning into oblivion...senility is a bitch

bollox codger...everything rosie said was true, and interesting, too

her codgitation was far superior to yours

quit the gratuitous insults and cogitate properly, please