The "Palestinians" Gave Up Sovereign Claims Long Ago

[YKohen]

I see that they did not get driven our of the homes by lawyers, dude, what do you see?

I see that they got their asses handed to them by people with weapons.

So was it law or was it POWER that made them pay that price?

1. All they had to do was say "yes" instead of choosing war. THEY chose war- not the Jews.

2. They weren't "driven from their homes", dude:

“The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city.... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."
- Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, page 25

"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949

"Israelis argue that the Arab states encouraged the Palestinians to flee. And, in fact, Arabs still living in Israel recall being urged to evacuate Haifa by Arab military commanders who wanted to bomb the city."
- Newsweek, January 20, 1963

“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations, and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die.”
- Ralph Galloway, Director of UNRWA, 1958

Even Muammar Qaddafi admitted it!

“It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 - violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians…”

The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia

If you want more, just ask.

Who WAS driven from their homes? Every single Jew in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza- and half of Jerusalem.

By the Arabs.

Yes they did have a choice.

They could go along with what the people with superior firep[ower told them or they could fight.

They choose to fight and they lost.

They could have chosen to accept UN 181 like the Jews did and get a state like the Jews did, or they could choose to fight. They chose to fight.

That was their choice.

The LAW had nothing to do with it.

International law is meaningless without weapons backing it up.

The law had everything to do with it. They chose weapons INSTEAD OF the law, war INSTEAD OF a state.

That was their choice.

 

[irosie91]

The place to start is RECOGNITION that a tiny portion of the massive "refugee" problem that marked the era of the second world war is that of the several hundred thousand arab muslims living in palestine who wanted to avoid the war between arabs and jews and so left. Since that time hundreds of MILLIONS of people have experienced a similar episode in life as well as prior to that time The anser lies in examining how the hundreds of millions handled the problem AND in drawing comparisions between the dilemma of the hundreds of millions of other refugees and the -----several hundred thousand arab muslims from the erstwhile "palestine" Even today----at this moment----refugees are gathering at borders to escape conflict.

another issue is that of "responsibility" Over the decades I have heard "arabs" interviewed who claimed that ISRAEL HAS TOTAL RESPONSIBILITY for the cure of their dilemma-----this idea is so remarkably ingrained----that I have even heard arab muslims declare that they would REFUSE help from other sources.----such as citizenship and integration into other socieites------BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY Therefore I believe that actual PRINCIPLES OF RESPONSIBILITY must be applied to ALL cases of refugees ------a good window of time for such an examination and COMPENSATION WHERE INDICATED----would be something like the past 200 years

It is always good to start with the CLEAREST examples-----I suggest that the world start determining "RESPONSIBILITY" ----by examining the REFUGEES who fled East Pakistan
in 1971----and determine the basic principles as to the extent of responsibility must be laid on the shoulders of Bangla Desh Those same principles must be applied to the refugees from Sudan, Somalia ----and all of those fleeing Syria at this time

 

[YKohen]

I read the Israeli initiative...

When the Muslims ruled OUR land, Jews were forbidden from entering the Tomb of the patriarchs, where OUR ancestors are buried in Hebron.

When Muslims ruled OUR land, Jews were forbidden from visiting OUR holiest site, the Temple Mount.

In fact, when the Arabs occupied Judea, Samaria, and Gaza in 1948, they ethnically cleansed ALL Jews, and now claim that Jews can't live here: THAT is apartheid.

We won't tolerate that here in OUR land.

They could have had a state in peace. They chose a war to ethnically cleanse the Jews. They lost.

They don't make the rules.

They can stay as the foreign residents as they are, or they can leave.

Either way, we will be here; LEGALLY AND MORALLY.

PS They sure are lucky that we're not like they are, or else they'd all be dead.

Settlers treat electrocuted Palestinian boy - Israel News, Ynetnews

We're also lucky that we're not like they are. I couldn't live with myself if we were.

 

[irosie91]

Y-K

According to you palestine does not exist and nor do palestinians and all the land bar none belongs by right to Israel.

What then would you do with non jews who are a very large part of the polulation and would one day be a majority in greater israel.

Are they to have a vote, and citizenship?

A jewish version of Dhimmis with reduced rights?

Expelled like most of their compatriots in 1948 and 1967?

Can they be left in what were biblical Jewish cities like Hebron?

I really do't see what point there is in you talking about International Law of any kind since you are so far away from any of its tenets re anything related to Israel-Palestine!

What is wrong with DHIMMIA kvetch? do you find the concept disgusting? Do
you consider the PACT OF OMAR to be an ABOMINATION? Are you insisting that
all residents of all countries have VOTING RIGHTS? or----even basic human rights like freedom of relgion and expression? Are you aware of the fact that MALDIVES has, in the past few years VOTED to require all citizens to be muslims?

I am always amazed that people, when discussing ISRAEL ----separate her out
as the ONCE COUNTRY REQUIRED TO BE "FAIR" Are the rules you guys considered to be applied ONLY to Israel?

 

[kvetch]

what is your view of benny morris and the new israeli historians who told the truth as best they could?

real unopposed ethnic cleansing was carried out for 2 years by israel in the ashkelon area until 1950

villages and mosques destroyed and all expelled to gaza

a huge refugee camp near jericho was cleansed in 1967 and its people chased into jordan

you didn't answer this point:

There is no question at all that ALL the current arbiters of international law now regard you and all your fellow settlers as criminals

That is the truth, and and all deflections are just that!


It just wont wash to defend 60 years old israeli hasbara re the exodus of pals; very few israli spin people even try
[/B]

 

[YKohen]

"Benny Morris and the Reign of Error" (The Middle East Quarterly, MARCH 1999 • VOLUME VI: NUMBER 1)

As a general rule, every war is fought twice: first on the battlefield, then in the historiographical arena. The Arabs failed to destroy the State of Israel in 1948; in the next fifty years, they and their Western partisans waged a sustained propaganda battle to cast the birth of Israel as the source of all evil. In the late 1980s this effort received a major boost with the advent of a group of Israeli academics calling themselves the New Historians who claim to have discovered archival evidence substantiating the anti-Israeli case.

These politicized historians have turned the saga of Israel's birth upside down, with aggressors turned into hapless victims and the reverse. The Jewish acceptance of the United Nations Resolution of November 29, 1947, partitioning Mandatory Palestine into two new states—Jewish and Arab—is completely ignored or dismissed as a disingenuous ploy; similarly, the violent Palestinian and Arab attempt to abort this resolution is overlooked. The concerted Arab attack on the newly-established State of Israel in mid-May 1948 is whitewashed as a haphazard move by ill-equipped and poorly trained armies confronted with a formidable Jewish force. It has even been suggested that the Palestinians, rather than the Israelis, were the target of this concerted Arab attack.1

So successful has this effort been that what began as propaganda has become received dogma. It is striking to see how popularity has widely come to be equated with veracity, as if the most commonly held position must by definition be the correct one. I personally learned this when some critics rejected my exposure of the New Historians methods2 not on scholarly grounds but because my work ran counter to the popular view. Thus Joel Beinin of Stanford University questioned my conclusions on the grounds that "many of the arguments of the `new historians' are widely accepted today in liberal Israeli intellectual circles."3 Of course, fashion and popularity cannot authenticate incorrect historical facts and argument. For this reason, it is important to return to the heart of the matter and reexamine the factual basis underlying the anti-Israel indictment.

Toward this end, I shall focus on a key charge: the claim by Benny Morris of Ben-Gurion University, a leading New Historian, that the Zionist and Israeli establishments have systematically falsified archival source material to conceal the Jewish state's less-than-immaculate conception.4 Through a detailed reexamination of the same documentation used by Morris, I shall seek to establish just how reliable his work is and whether it forms a legitimate basis for the revisionist theories he espouses.

First, a note of caution: A rigorous scrutinizing of primary source-material, especially in translation, does not make for the easiest of reading; comparing texts requires more than the usual concentration. I hope the reader will bear with me, though, for this is the only way to get at the bottom of some vexing and critical disputes.

Morris engages in five types of distortion: he misrepresents documents, resorts to partial quotes, withholds evidence, makes false assertions, and rewrites original documents...

 

[kvetch]

Rosie:

What is wrong with DHIMMIA kvetch? do you find the concept disgusting?


of sourse i do

Do
you consider the PACT OF OMAR to be an ABOMINATION?

dont know zilch about it, dear

Are you insisting that
all residents of all countries have VOTING RIGHTS? or----even basic human rights like freedom of relgion and expression? Are you aware of the fact that MALDIVES has, in the past few years VOTED to require all citizens to be muslims?

I am always amazed that people, when discussing ISRAEL ----separate her out
as the ONCE COUNTRY REQUIRED TO BE "FAIR" Are the rules you guys considered to be applied ONLY to Israel?

I think they need to be enforced in pennsylvania and florida from what I saw 2 nights ago!

good morning sweetie...glad you dont dislike your pres...

 

[YKohen]

Jews ALWAYS lived in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. ALWAYS.

Well, obviously Jews lived here during Biblical times. We all know that.

If you look at the documents from the Cairo Geniza, dating back to the 9th century, you'll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

If you look at travelers' accounts from the Early Middle Ages, such as Nahmanides, Benjamin of Tudela, and a host of others, you'll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

Rabbi Jechiel Ashkenazi, who was actually Sepharadi, purchased the Karite synagogue of Hebron in 1540 on behalf of the Sepharadi congregants.

If you read about Shabtai Tzvi, the false messiah of the 16th century, you'll find that his "prophet" was Nathan of Gaza, where the center of his movement was located for a period.

In 1834, Hebron was taken by storm by Abraim Pasha, and given up to his soldiers for several days. Most of the Muslims fled to the surrounding hills, but the Jews couldn't, and since they weren't involved in any of the political feuds, they weren't particularly worried (since they wouldn't be viewed as rebels). When Abraim went to take Hebron, a petition was presented to him by the officers of the Jewish congregation in Jerusalem to protect the Jewish inhabitants of Hebron, which he promised to do; but still, five Jews were deliberately murdered, and all of their property that hadn't been hidden was either stolen or destroyed. Only then, did Abraim place a guard around their quarter of the town, but it was too late. He wasn't going to try and force his soldiers to give back the stolen booty. The Hebron Jewish community was impoverished- but they were still in Hebron.

In fact, except for the periods of 1929-1931 and 1936-1968, there has been a significant Jewish presence in Hebron SINCE BIBLICAL TIMES.

The ONLY period of time where there were no Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was between 1948-1967, when the Arabs ethnically-cleansed us from here.

Now we're back home again, where we ALWAYS were- FOR GOOD.

BY RIGHT.

Better get used to that.

West Bank settler population rises 4.5 percent to 350,000 | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

 

[kvetch]

you only answered the first sentence of my post, Y=K

what about the rest?

how do you plead re your status in international law as of now

3rd time of asking

will judge you ex parte as a criminal who has no defence if no proper answer again

and what about the other examples of unoppsed ethnic cleansing I cited?

 

[YKohen]

As to the rest of your post, I answered it in previous posts. The Arabs ethincally cleansed the Jews. They will be held accountable.

 

[kvetch]

Y-K: Jews ALWAYS lived in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. ALWAYS

not in gaza they aint

not if you believe the bible, since the jewish 9/11 suicide bomber samson who pulled down the twin towers and killed 3,000 innocent phillistines in a temple with the force of your old tribal god not anyone's decent god

no jews at all there in 1948, only one small jewish kibbutz for many miles around according to all the maps I have seen

ashkelon, ashdod also solely non jews.......

the coast was never ever jewish by solid majority at any time whatsoever

you stole it, mainly ....most of it that jews didn't actually buy

unlike the west bank.........that did indeed belong to jews 2,000 years ago but not now

 

[YKohen]

You weren't aware that Jews lived in Gaza? Seriously?

There were no Jews in Gaza City in 1948 because they had been ethnically cleansed already.

We stole nothing. The Arabs rejected UN 181, so they rejected sovereignty of any kind.

 

[YKohen]

Prof. Eugene Rostow, former US Undersecretary of State, a key author of UN Resolution 242, international law authority, Yale University:

"Israel has a stronger claim to the West Bank than any other nation or would-be nation [and] the same legal right to settle the West Bank, the Gaza strip and east Jerusalem as it has to settle Haifa or west Jerusalem."

Rostow Credentials

After a year's law practice in New York, Dr. Rostow joined the Yale faculty in 1938, and has been a member ever since, with periods of leave for public service and as visiting professor in Cambridge (1959-60), Oxford (1970-71), and the University of Chicago (1941). Dr. Rostow became became Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Scholar at Yale in 1984. He was Dean of the Yale Law School between 1955 and 1965; Assistant to Dean Acheson when he was Assistant Secretary of State, 1942-44; Assistant to the Executive Secretary of the Economic Commission for Europe in 1949-50; Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, 1966-69; Director of the Arms Control and Disarmament agency, 1981-83; Distinguished Research Professor of Law and Diplomacy, National Defense University, Ft. McNair, Washington, D.C. 1984-90; Distinguished Fellow, United States Institute of Peace, 1990-92; Distinguished Research Professor of Law and Diplomacy, N.D.U., and adjunct Fellow, American Enterprise Institute.

 

[irosie91]

you are mostly right Kvetch----regarding Gaza Gaza has a history of being populated in ANCIENT times-----as a productive and VERY STRATEGIC bit of land -----where they grew cotton. But in recent centuries ----because of the lack of water----it was simply not populated in any significant way---It has no history as an ARAB MUSLIM CITY prior to 1948 when Egypt turned it into a REFUGEE HOLDING AREA----to make sure that the arab muslims who left Israel REMAINED HEREDITARY REFUGEES and RECIPIENTS OF UN AID -----which is paid for mostly by the USA . Pictures of Gaza from the late 1940s and into the 1950s and 60s do appear in islamo nazi propaganda -------they reveal utter desolation with bedraggled people herded into barbed wire enclosures

 

[rosends]

kvetch -- I'm not sure how serious you are about this line "since the jewish 9/11 suicide bomber samson who pulled down the twin towers and killed 3,000 innocent phillistines in a temple ". You are invoking a biblical story but only in the most reductionist way. Samson was an enslaved and tortured prisoner who was put on public display by his oppressors. He didn't wander into a pizza place uninvited and blow himself up and those around him weren't students in school but soldiers celebrating his denigration. I did enjoy your interesting use of parallel language noting the linguistic connections but I wanted to make sure that the distinctions were noted as well.

 

[irosie91]

A very charming detail of the SAMSON story-----in which he knocked down a temple-----of MEN AND WOMEN engaged in debauchery (at least according to the story) and---fact is the land of canaan----way back then has been demonstrated thru archaelogical finds to have harbored religions which engaged in orgies of overt sexual acts as "FERTILITY RITUALS"--------the land is riddled with little sculptures demonstrating this issue. ---uhm---the charming detail is that Samson is described as being accompanied by a "boy" ----a kid who led him around since he was blind. As the story goes-----before knocking the temple down----Samson told the boy TO LEAVE

 

[kvetch]

end of non discussion, Y-K

you have no answer

only a big big bunch of stored up ready to shoot old worn out zio lies and cruel non solutions

as for our discussion of historical zionism yesterday,

I realise I have a lot of research and thinking to do before i can say anything worth asking you

what i do know is that your christian zionist allies are definitely twisting bible prophecies in jewish zionism's favour

because for them the messiah has already come and those older prophecies are history now,

and none of the jewish prophets talk of a second in-gathering at a second appearance of the messiah, do they?

they follow the christian book of revelation....a ghastly genocidal vision of the end of the world

and do you know what those devils have in store for all jews who refuse to bow down before christ then?

yes, a total auschwitz...........did you know that?

be careful of those dupes, haver

 

[kvetch]

you are mostly right Kvetch----regarding Gaza Gaza has a history of being populated in ANCIENT times-----as a productive and VERY STRATEGIC bit of land -----where they grew cotton. But in recent centuries ----because of the lack of water----it was simply not populated in any significant way---It has no history as an ARAB MUSLIM CITY prior to 1948 when Egypt turned it into a REFUGEE HOLDING AREA----to make sure that the arab muslims who left Israel REMAINED HEREDITARY REFUGEES and RECIPIENTS OF UN AID -----which is paid for mostly by the USA . Pictures of Gaza from the late 1940s and into the 1950s and 60s do appear in islamo nazi propaganda -------they reveal utter desolation with bedraggled people herded into barbed wire enclosures

i totally agree

only 90,000 gazans in 1948

and even now, conflict between those old gazans and refugees

it just gets worse and worse for the poor buggers

and altough they have responsibilty for a lot of that, i feel for those who are innocent

 

[kvetch]

A very charming detail of the SAMSON story-----in which he knocked down a temple-----of MEN AND WOMEN engaged in debauchery (at least according to the story) and---fact is the land of canaan----way back then has been demonstrated thru archaelogical finds to have harbored religions which engaged in orgies of overt sexual acts as "FERTILITY RITUALS"--------the land is riddled with little sculptures demonstrating this issue. ---uhm---the charming detail is that Samson is described as being accompanied by a "boy" ----a kid who led him around since he was blind. As the story goes-----before knocking the temple down----Samson told the boy TO LEAVE

charming!!

I missed the boy bit !!

yes I am aware of the sexy stuff......not a match for what you find in old india, tho superb temple statues of sex and love even with beasts in one of them!

our christian spring festivals are sanitised old pagan fertility rites which in celtic lands anyway were orgies, too

one extreme...the over sexed pagans .....to the other........anti sex christians

maybe us jews are just about in the right place......about in the middle!!

 

[irosie91]

who has responsibility? They are human beings and they landed in the arms of people who SPEAK THEIR LANGUAGE, PRACTICE THEIR RELGION_----and they were actually so encouraged to remain locked up in Gaza by---- THEIR FELLOW MUSLIMS WORLD WIDE-----that it is correct to claim that they were IMPRISONED for a fascist agenda My sense of leadership THRUOUT the muslim world is that it lies in the hands of few-------usually sociopaths. Err ----I do know POWERFUL FAMILIES -----have been made up of sociopaths thruout history and world wide------but leadership in the "muslim world" is reminiscent of Cosa nostra The general public seems to get "OFFERS IT CANNOT REFUSE" Did you know that the MAFIA----aka "black hand" -----developed during the time Sicily was occupied by muslims? It was actually a REACTION AGAINST----but seems to have adopted some "methods"