The Palestine Solution

[Coyote]

No my argument is they both have to share.

I"m not sure why you think that is my premise. It isn't.

I think that is your premise because you indicated (paraphrased) that the Palestinians can't share while Israel has settlements on "their" land. We (collective "we" -- those who are actually trying to solve the problem) need to stop using this as an excuse and challenge others when they use it as an excuse not to solve the problem.

No, what I'm saying is that as long as Israeli's continue the building of settlements, it will be harder to form a contiguous state. The reality of the situation is not "can they or should they or will they share" - it's that the political will to dismantle any settlements is weak and insuring safety and security for Israeli citizens not on soveriegn Israeli territory is very problematic. The Israeli's who make up the "settler" movement represent the more extreme religious elements of Israeli society and they tend to believe all of biblical Israel is there's by right. They live in Jewish-only settlements and show little more desire to be open to sharing than the more extreme Palestinians. How do you deal with such people?

The ideal would be as you say - dual citizens, a strong civil society that can overcome years of war and hatred....but you have some ingrained attitudes to overcome in the process and very real security concerns.

It's not an "excuse" - it's presenting the reality and asking how do you work within that reality?

Now, having said that you and I have previously agreed that the Jewish people will probably have to be removed for their own safety.

But I can't remember, did we agree that there could be land swaps?

Absolutely land swaps, there is no way the larger settlements could be demolished, and people have now lived there for several generations. To force them out would be unfair.

Thank you. That was the more nuanced response I was hoping for. And again, we largely agree. It is my understanding that Israel has not permitted any new settlements in more than twenty years, but is building more housing units in existing settlements.

And I agree this creates some urgency for both sides to come up with a solution. Or some responsibility on the Israeli side to preserve the contiguity of Palestine.

Okay, so more agreement. What's next?

What would you see as realistic borders and landswaps for both sides? Jeruselum is what I think is the biggest difficulty.

 

[Coyote]

No my argument is they both have to share.

I"m not sure why you think that is my premise. It isn't.

I think that is your premise because you indicated (paraphrased) that the Palestinians can't share while Israel has settlements on "their" land. We (collective "we" -- those who are actually trying to solve the problem) need to stop using this as an excuse and challenge others when they use it as an excuse not to solve the problem.

No, what I'm saying is that as long as Israeli's continue the building of settlements, it will be harder to form a contiguous state. The reality of the situation is not "can they or should they or will they share" - it's that the political will to dismantle any settlements is weak and insuring safety and security for Israeli citizens not on soveriegn Israeli territory is very problematic. The Israeli's who make up the "settler" movement represent the more extreme religious elements of Israeli society and they tend to believe all of biblical Israel is there's by right. They live in Jewish-only settlements and show little more desire to be open to sharing than the more extreme Palestinians. How do you deal with such people?

The ideal would be as you say - dual citizens, a strong civil society that can overcome years of war and hatred....but you have some ingrained attitudes to overcome in the process and very real security concerns.

It's not an "excuse" - it's presenting the reality and asking how do you work within that reality?

Now, having said that you and I have previously agreed that the Jewish people will probably have to be removed for their own safety.

But I can't remember, did we agree that there could be land swaps?

Absolutely land swaps, there is no way the larger settlements could be demolished, and people have now lived there for several generations. To force them out would be unfair.

Absolutely land swaps, there is no way the larger settlements could be demolished, and people have now lived there for several generations. To force them out would be unfair.​

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I could agree to that IF security, safety and rights could be guaranteed to Jewish residents if they stayed but I don't see that happening. Too much history, and a mass displacement of people is inhumane.

 

[Shusha]

From your radical position that claims that the native people have no right to any land ...

Do you always make arguments based on an intentional misreading of other's peoples' posts? Where did I say that the Palestinian people have no RIGHT to land. I have been a champion of their right to land since day one on this forum.

What I actually said was that there is no defined,territory which can be claimed to already BE Palestinian land, which is what Tinmore asserted.

 

[Coyote]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

From your radical position that claims that the native people have no right to any land there could be an opposite position that claims that it is all Palestinian land and that it is only a matter of time that the descendants of the colonists will be expelled. Like Algeria, Rhodesia etc.

Jews are also native indiginous people, and for every immigrant from Europe, there are also immigrants into Palestine from neighboring Arab countries in search of jobs and opportunities over the past century. Are you proposing to expell ALL these people?

I think we have to deal with the people that are there here and now and form a solution based on that, not past history.

 

[Shusha]

What would you see as realistic borders and landswaps for both sides? Jeruselum is what I think is the biggest difficulty.

something like this:

I would extend the Palestinian corridor into Jerusalem, and give some portion of Jerusalem to Palestine. (THAT is very controversial on the Israeli side, but I'd be willing to do it). NOT the Old City, though and not the Temple Mount -- that stays in Israel. My understanding is that further territory can be added to the north, possibly including some of the larger Arab communities there, as well as expanding Gaza's borders.

Israel would maintain control over the Jordan Valley though. Probably on a contingency basis until certain security issues are resolved. A long-term contingency basis. I'd like to see some sort of security arrangements with Jordan, independant of Palestine as well.

 

[montelatici]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

From your radical position that claims that the native people have no right to any land there could be an opposite position that claims that it is all Palestinian land and that it is only a matter of time that the descendants of the colonists will be expelled. Like Algeria, Rhodesia etc.

Jews are also native indiginous people, and for every immigrant from Europe, there are also immigrants into Palestine from neighboring Arab countries in search of jobs and opportunities over the past century. Are you proposing to expell ALL these people?

I think we have to deal with the people that are there here and now and form a solution based on that, not past history.

How can people that come from elsewhere to be indigenous? Romanians might claim to be indigenous to Rome, but no one will support that contention.

 

[Coyote]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

From your radical position that claims that the native people have no right to any land there could be an opposite position that claims that it is all Palestinian land and that it is only a matter of time that the descendants of the colonists will be expelled. Like Algeria, Rhodesia etc.

Jews are also native indiginous people, and for every immigrant from Europe, there are also immigrants into Palestine from neighboring Arab countries in search of jobs and opportunities over the past century. Are you proposing to expell ALL these people?

I think we have to deal with the people that are there here and now and form a solution based on that, not past history.

How can people that come from elsewhere to be indigenous? Romanians might claim to be indigenous to Rome, but no one will support that contention.

Are you saying Jews are not indiginous, because if you are, history contradicts you. There are Jews that live there that have lived there for thousands of years.

 

[Coyote]

What would you see as realistic borders and landswaps for both sides? Jeruselum is what I think is the biggest difficulty.

something like this:

I would extend the Palestinian corridor into Jerusalem, and give some portion of Jerusalem to Palestine. (THAT is very controversial on the Israeli side, but I'd be willing to do it). NOT the Old City, though and not the Temple Mount -- that stays in Israel. My understanding is that further territory can be added to the north, possibly including some of the larger Arab communities there, as well as expanding Gaza's borders.

Israel would maintain control over the Jordan Valley though. Probably on a contingency basis until certain security issues are resolved. A long-term contingency basis. I'd like to see some sort of security arrangements with Jordan, independant of Palestine as well.

I have a difficult time visualizing this - would you follow the border indicated by the dashed line? I admit, I don't have a good sense of the areas with large Jewish or Arab populations, I need to look at more maps. Also resources. I wonder what would be considered reasonable land swaps?

RoccoR ... once upon a time we had this thread but it's lost to the software change. Would you want to chime in?

What about allocation of resources?

How would Jeruselum be governed?

 

[Shusha]

I have a difficult time visualizing this - would you follow the border indicated by the dashed line?

Nope. Grey is Palestine, white is Israel.

What about allocation of resources?

How would Jeruselum be governed?

Resources not my area of expertise. So, I'd have to look into that more. Jerusalem would be split. Each would govern their own part of it.

 

[montelatici]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

From your radical position that claims that the native people have no right to any land there could be an opposite position that claims that it is all Palestinian land and that it is only a matter of time that the descendants of the colonists will be expelled. Like Algeria, Rhodesia etc.

Jews are also native indiginous people, and for every immigrant from Europe, there are also immigrants into Palestine from neighboring Arab countries in search of jobs and opportunities over the past century. Are you proposing to expell ALL these people?

I think we have to deal with the people that are there here and now and form a solution based on that, not past history.

How can people that come from elsewhere to be indigenous? Romanians might claim to be indigenous to Rome, but no one will support that contention.

Are you saying Jews are not indiginous, because if you are, history contradicts you. There are Jews that live there that have lived there for thousands of years.

I am saying that Europeans are not indigenous to Palestine, regardless of religion. A very small number of Palestinians of the Jewish faith may have continued to live in Palaestina province under Roman rule until Christianity was made the state religion. After that, the Pagan and Jewish Palestinians were no more. Constantine's mother made sure of that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

You have that wrong. It is Israel that has no land until there is a treaty.


Perhaps it would be better to respond here:

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate | Page 23 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

Well, the easiest of the two issues (IMO) is the question of Resource Management and Exploitation.

RoccoR ... once upon a time we had this thread but it's lost to the software change. Would you want to chime in?

What about allocation of resources?

How would Jerusalem be governed?

(NATURAL RESOURCES)

OK the Basic Rule is: All things being equal, the Resources are generally owned by the sovereign. That is particularly the position most governments take unless there is some legal terms of ownership have been crafted.

So, it only makes sense that the Natural Resources in the Palestinian territory, belongs to the Palestinians. The resources in Israel belongs to Israel.

Because some of the resources are intertwined under sovereign territory, a joint commission needs to be established for management and exploitation purposes of those specifically.

I think that the Palestinians have an interest in Levant Oil and Gas finds (Gaza Coast - I suspect). This requires either a cooperative or a joint commission.

(JERUSALEM)

AND, I think that, just like the US and Canada have a a bilateral treaty organization called the International Boundary Commission (IBC) the Israelis and Palestinians need a composition bilateral treaty organization [maybe called: International Resource, Antiquities, and Boundary Commission (IRABC)] which will be a multifaceted commission that Manages all these, and more.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

As our Bible states:

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

"God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?
I have received [an instruction] to bless, and He has blessed, and I cannot retract it.
He does not look at evil in Jacob, and has seen no perversity in Israel; the Lord, his God, is with him, and he has the King's friendship."
(Number 23)

"And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11)


"Therefore, behold days are coming, says the Lord, and it shall no longer be said, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,"
But, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up the children of Israel from the northland and from all the lands where He had driven them, " and I will restore them to their land that I gave to their forefathers. (Jeremiah 16)

Shabat Shalom

 

[ForeverYoung436]

As our Bible states:

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

"God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?
I have received [an instruction] to bless, and He has blessed, and I cannot retract it.
He does not look at evil in Jacob, and has seen no perversity in Israel; the Lord, his God, is with him, and he has the King's friendship."
(Number 23)

"And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11)


"Therefore, behold days are coming, says the Lord, and it shall no longer be said, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,"
But, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up the children of Israel from the northland and from all the lands where He had driven them, " and I will restore them to their land that I gave to their forefathers. (Jeremiah 16)

Shabat Shalom

Shabbat Shalom. We have seen the fulfillment of that promise in our own days!

 

[montelatici]

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I am opposed to destroying any property or removing people from their homes. However since the settlements are on Palestinian land they should remain in Palestine. The settlers should have the option of being Palestinian citizens or moving to Israel.

I do not understand how people can continue to post about "Palestinian land". THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN LAND. Until a treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed -- there is no land which is "Palestine". So get off it already.

But I agree with you that once the borders are established, those resident in each country must become citizens of that country.

You have that wrong. It is Israel that has no land until there is a treaty.


Perhaps it would be better to respond here:

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate | Page 23 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Once again, this is not Philosophy 101. Of course, Israel has land! What nonsense.

 

[rylah]

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Must be a a problem there...seeing Israel REAPPEAR against all odds,
capturing Jerusalem in 6 DAYS.

How sweet are the words of Hashem and his Torah:

"But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God." (Leviticus 44)

"So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time." (Jeremiah 31)


Last time I checked, the sun was still there...

 

[montelatici]

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Must be a a problem there...seeing Israel REAPPEAR against all odds,
capturing Jerusalem in 6 DAYS.

How sweet are the words of Hashem and his Torah:

"But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God." (Leviticus 44)

"So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time." (Jeremiah 31)


Last time I checked, the sun was still there...

Well, with the help of the world's premier colonial empire and the U.S., you did not need God.

 

[member]

This thread is intended to explore concrete, specific, step-by-step solutions to the problem of the Israel/Arab conflict. It assumes a two (or three) State solution. It assumes a negotiated, mutually satisfactory solution with an end-of-conflict agreement. It assumes no other pre-conditions -- everything else is on the table. Discussions of a one State solution are not appropriate. Denial of the legitimacy of either side is not appropriate.

I hope participants will use this thread to provide either a "final outcome" template for a peace treaty or to provide the necessary steps towards such a thing. All steps should be as complete and comprehensive as possible. For example, rather than say, "Israel should end the occupation of OPT" please describe exactly what this might entail.

Discussion and debate of why a step may be unacceptable to either party is also welcome.

"This thread is intended to explore concrete, specific, step-by-step solutions to the problem of the Israel/Arab conflict."

STEP 1:

Get rid of terrorists and "military wings" and ...."new leaders of military wings."


". . .Sinwar, who rejects any reconciliation with Israel, has quickly restored his power in the movement since his return to Gaza..."


"al-Madhoun, a pro-Hamas analyst who runs a Gaza think tank [. . .] got the impression that he is more interested in improving difficult conditions in Gaza than renewed conflict with Israel. "He is interested in stability, the rebuilding of Gaza and easing the blockade,"


"al-Madhoun said. "I felt he is more with the truce rather than conflict."





- "Sinwar, who rejects any reconciliation with Israel. . ."
- ". . .I felt he is more with the truce rather than conflict."



ok, whatever you say Al-mad...?? "rejects reconciliation with israel ** wants truce rather than conflict."

(already, it's starting -- the confusion)....

 

[P F Tinmore]

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11)

Thank you.

He shall gather the lost of Israel,
​

Not a bunch of atheists from Europe. This Israel is a fake.