The Official Republican Debates Thread

[red states rule]

Sanity has returned to SC - abortion may be gone sometime in the future

 

[Dirt McGirt]

So YOU are saying that I d&e's are NOT BANNED if they inject the baby SOMEHOW and kill it in the womb, then they can breach deliver and suck the brains out before full delivery and that the courts did NOT BAN intact delievery if they found a way to kill the baby by keeping it INTACT?

Show me in the ruling where it says such? ( hahaha, or did you do that already?)

And if this injection procedure is dangerous then why DO you say or act like it is a valid option for the woman?

I heard most all of the hearing on c-span and did not take note of such....?

The baby can be dismembered within the womb. Care is correct in that regard. Dismemberment outside the womb was specified in the law, all the court did was uphold the ban. The reason why the ruling was significant was because the Supreme Court allowed a federal ban on an abortion procedure. That means that it's possible Congress and the President can pass another ban on dismemberment inside the womb and possibly other restrictions.

 

[red states rule]

The baby can be dismembered within the womb. Care is correct in that regard. It was specified in the law, all the court did was uphold the ban. The reason why the ruling was significant was because the Supreme Court allowed a federal ban on an abortion procedure. That means that it's possible Congress and the President can pass another ban on dismemberment inside the womb and possibly other restrictions.

and the downside to that is?

 

[Care4all]

No1, there is NO procedure where a needle is injected in to the child to kill it.... Darla's link or comments that you are going by must be wrong...

There is a Saline Abortion but this usually takes place in the THIRD TRIMESTER, where as the IDE or IDX is performed 20-24 weeks in general....and some may be earlier if it is the insephalitis infection in the baby which swells the infants head abnormally.

here is the description of the saline abortion and this may be where you have gotten "injection" from....

Saline or prostaglandin abortions: These totaled about 1.5% of all abortions - perhaps 25,000 in a typical year. A needle is fed through the woman's abdomen into the liquid that surrounds the fetus. A saline solution, made of salt and water, is passed through the needle. The fetus dies of salt poisoning. Labor follows, and a dead fetus is delivered. The salt burns the skin of the fetus.

 

[red states rule]

No1, there is NO procedure where a needle is injected in to the child to kill it.... Darla's link or comments that you are going by must be wrong...

There is a Saline Abortion but this usually takes place in the THIRD TRIMESTER, where as the IDE or IDX is performed 20-24 weeks in general....and some may be earlier if it is the insephalitis infection in the baby which swells the infants head abnormally.

here is the description of the saline abortion and this may be where you have gotten "injection" from....

Wrong Care

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html

 

[Care4all]

Wrong Care

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html

oh red, you have misunderstood what No1 and I are speaking about...

I thoroughly understand that IDX (partial birth) abortion includes a siringe to suck the brains out.... and the whole procedure of this....

No1 mentioned to me in a previous post that women that were going to have an IDX that want to deliver and INTACT child, have ANOTHER method of abortion that would allow the woman to still have an INTACT delivery...something done with an injection to kill the child before the IDX abortion is done to suck the brains out.....

I disagreed with him. The most common procedure of abortion that is LEGAL in second trimester later term abortions is a D & E which requires the doctors to dismember the child to be in the mother's womb and most women that were going to have an IDX will now HAVE to use the D&E....dismemberment in the womb.....UNLESS the women want to have a cesarean section which is much more dangerous to the health of the mother and prevents her from having a natural birth in the future.

Most women that had no problems with their child to be but just want an abortion may not care about what procedure is used, the IDX or the D&E...

But the women that WANT their babies but have complications with their babies and MUST abort, will no longer have a choice to deliever their baby via partial birth abortion which delievers their child INTACT, where the mother can hold her dead child and mourn..... they are forced in to the D&E where their child to be is dismembered. This is where I disagree with the SC decision on health exception not being included.

I have been searching the net for two days now trying to find this abortion that No1 is speaking about that allows the woman with medical problems with her fetus, to deliver an intact fetus....haven't found any, as of yet....but I am still searching!

Care

 

[no1tovote4]

It was the Supreme Court Case on Partial Birth Abortion.....they showed the case with just audio on c-span....(they showed you a picture of the Justice speaking and asking questions)

you can listen to it if you go to c-span, they have a link, so that you can hear the lawyers argue the case before them..... it was cool! and informative!

I heard most of it....missed maybe 10 minutes of it at the most.

and good morning no1!

care

Morning.

 

[no1tovote4]

oh red, you have misunderstood what No1 and I are speaking about...

I thoroughly understand that IDX (partial birth) abortion includes a siringe to suck the brains out.... and the whole procedure of this....

No1 mentioned to me in a previous post that women that were going to have an IDX that want to deliver and INTACT child, have ANOTHER method of abortion that would allow the woman to still have an INTACT delivery...something done with an injection to kill the child before the IDX abortion is done to suck the brains out.....

I disagreed with him. The most common procedure of abortion that is LEGAL in second trimester later term abortions is a D & E which requires the doctors to dismember the child to be in the mother's womb and most women that were going to have an IDX will now HAVE to use the D&E....dismemberment in the womb.....UNLESS the women want to have a cesarean section which is much more dangerous to the health of the mother and prevents her from having a natural birth in the future.

Most women that had no problems with their child to be but just want an abortion may not care about what procedure is used, the IDX or the D&E...

But the women that WANT their babies but have complications with their babies and MUST abort, will no longer have a choice to deliever their baby via partial birth abortion which delievers their child INTACT, where the mother can hold her dead child and mourn..... they are forced in to the D&E where their child to be is dismembered. This is where I disagree with the SC decision on health exception not being included.

I have been searching the net for two days now trying to find this abortion that Damo is speaking about that allows the woman with medical problems with her fetus, to deliver an intact fetus....haven't found any, as of yet....but I am still searching!

Care

You are fundamentally misunderstanding my position. The lawyer on the radio expressed that to continue doing I D&E they would need to inject the baby before the procedure, thus making it legal as the law only covers the position where the baby is killed, not the killing itself.

So, basically it wasn't done regularly, some women would request such an action beforehand if they were cognizant of the procedure beforehand, but instead of just doing the standard D&E they can inject beforehand then perfrom the Intact D&E so your mother would have the baby to mourn. Since the child would be deceased pre-procedure there would be no illegality in the Intact D&E.

The idea that you are going to find the prodedure as a current practice is a bit disingenuous. I am speaking to legality, not current practice.

 

[Care4all]

You are fundamentally misunderstanding my position. The lawyer on the radio expressed that to continue doing I D&E they would need to inject the baby before the procedure, thus making it legal as the law only covers the position where the baby is killed, not the killing itself.

So, basically it wasn't done regularly, some women would request such an action beforehand if they were cognizant of the procedure beforehand, but instead of just doing the standard D&E they can inject beforehand then perfrom the Intact D&E so your mother would have the baby to mourn. Since the child would be deceased pre-procedure there would be no illegality in the Intact D&E.

The idea that you are going to find the prodedure as a current practice is a bit disingenuous. I am speaking to legality, not current practice.

But no1, IF this is a procedure that HAS NOT EVER been done or is NOT used, how do you consider this a viable abortion option? I question this ONE doctor's opinion on this....

especially since there is NOTHING, NADA, NIENTE on the internet about this abortion procedure that kills the baby to be in the womb via a injection?

This doctors's hypothetical is not reality.

And yes, I would agree with this doctor's opinion on the SC ruling.....IF and that is a big IF a procedure could be developed that could kill the child in the womb, while keeping them intact, like an injection of some sort that would not harm the mother's health, then the I D&E could be used to deliver the child and they could still suck the brains out of the dead fetus so that delievery of the child to be would be less difficult with the smaller crushed head.

But as far as I can tell, there IS NO SUCH procedure?

Care

 

[Dirt McGirt]

There is a Saline Abortion but this usually takes place in the THIRD TRIMESTER, where as the IDE or IDX is performed 20-24 weeks in general....and some may be earlier if it is the insephalitis infection in the baby which swells the infants head abnormally.

here is the description of the saline abortion and this may be where you have gotten "injection" from....

Here's a little bit more information on that type of abortion. It's rarely done but despite the SCOTUS ruling that upholds the ban on partial birth abortion, this type of procedure is still legal.

Induction abortion
Treatment Overview

Starting (inducing) labor and delivery in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy is done using medicines. The cervix may be slowly opened (dilated) with a device called a cervical (osmotic) dilator before the induction is started to prevent complications. Medicines to start early labor can be:

* Injected into the amniotic sac surrounding the fetus (instillation). This stops the pregnancy and starts uterine contractions. Substances injected include salt water (saline); urea, a substance produced from what is naturally found in urine and blood; or digoxin or potassium chloride, given directly to the fetus.
* Inserted into the vagina to start uterine contractions and soften the cervix, which allows uterine contents to pass through the cervix. Vaginal medicines include the prostaglandins dinoprostone and misoprostol.
* Injected into a vein (intravenously, or IV) to start uterine contractions. Oxytocin (Pitocin) is commonly used for this purpose.

Taking a large amount of fluid out of the amniotic sac (amniocentesis) also may be used as an induction abortion procedure.

The different medicines available for an induction abortion may be combined for effectiveness and to decrease the amount of bleeding.

An induction abortion does cause you to go through the stages of labor and delivery. Pain medicines can be used during the procedure.
What To Expect After Treatment

As your body returns to its nonpregnant condition, there are changes you can expect during the days and weeks after the procedure. Normal recovery includes:

* Irregular bleeding or spotting for the first 2 weeks. During the first week, avoid tampon use and use only sanitary pads.
* Cramps similar to menstrual cramps, which may be present for several hours and possibly for a few days as the uterus shrinks back to its nonpregnant size.
* Emotional reactions for 2 to 3 weeks.

After the procedure:

* Antibiotics may be given to prevent infection.
* Rest quietly for the next several days. You can return to your normal activities based on how you feel.
* Acetaminophen (such as Tylenol) or ibuprofen (such as Advil) can help relieve cramping pain.
* Do not have sexual intercourse for at least 1 week, or longer, as advised by your health professional.
* When you start having intercourse again, use birth control, and use condoms to prevent infection. For immediately effective birth control, you can use a barrier method (such as a diaphragm, cervical cap, or condom). An intrauterine device (IUD) is effective immediately after it is placed in the uterus. If you start hormone birth control pills, patches, or injections right after the procedure, be sure to use a backup method until the hormone medicine becomes effective. For more information, see the topic Birth Control.

Why It Is Done

Abortions in the second or third trimester are usually done because of a medical problem or illness present in the fetus or the pregnant woman. Induction is a rarely used abortion procedure.
How Well It Works

Induction abortion is effective in the second and third trimesters.

Dilation and evacuation (D&E) is more commonly used in second- or third-trimester abortions because it is safer, quicker, and more effective than induction abortion.
Risks

Risks of induction abortion by injecting medicines into the amniotic sac include:

* An accidental injection of saline or other medicines into the mother's bloodstream.
* Possible damage to the uterus during the injection procedure.
* Infection.
* Excessive bleeding (hemorrhage).

Risks of induction abortion by inserting medicines into the vagina include:

* Excessive bleeding.
* Excessive uterine contractions and pain.
* Uterine rupture if a uterine scar is present from a previous surgery (rare).

Medicines inserted into the vagina cause the uterus to contract as in labor and delivery and have fewer risks than injecting medicines into the amniotic sac.

Risks of injecting medicine into a vein (IV) include:

* Excessive bleeding.
* Excessive uterine contractions and pain.
* Decreased effectiveness in ending the pregnancy.

What To Think About

Induction abortions are rarely done because abortions in the first trimester are safe and effective. Dilation and evacuation (D&E) is more commonly used in second- or third-trimester abortions because it is safer, quicker, and more effective than induction abortion. Induction abortions must be done in a hospital so that you can be monitored during the entire procedure. Less than 1% of therapeutic abortions in the United States use an induction method. Induction abortions may be used more in other countries around the world where skilled health professionals are not available or trained to perform D&E procedures.1

An induction abortion that is done because of fetal abnormalities might include time after the procedure for the parents to be with their child. With an induction abortion, genetic testing and an autopsy can also be done.

An abortion is unlikely to affect your fertility, so it is possible to become pregnant in the weeks right after the procedure. Avoid sexual intercourse until your body has fully recovered, for at least 1 week or as advised by your health professional. When you do start having intercourse again, use birth control, and use condoms to prevent infection.

Counseling for a second-trimester abortion may be more involved than for an early abortion because of the length of the pregnancy and the reason for the abortion. Should you have continuing emotional reactions after an abortion, seek counseling from a grief counselor or other licensed mental health professional.

Postpartum depression can be triggered by changing pregnancy hormones after an abortion. If you have more than 2 weeks of symptoms of postpartum depression, such as fatigue, sleep or appetite change, or feelings of sadness, emptiness, anxiety, or irritability, see your health professional about treatment. Keep track of your symptoms with a postpartum depression checklist Click here to view a form. (What is a PDF document?).

The hospital or surgery center may send you instructions on how to get ready for your surgery, or a nurse may call you with instructions before your surgery.

Right after surgery, you will be taken to a recovery area where nurses will care for and observe you. You will probably stay in the recovery area for 1 to 4 hours, and then you will be moved to a hospital room or you will go home. In addition to any special instructions from your doctor, your nurse will explain information to help you in your recovery. You will go home with a page of care instructions including who to contact if a problem arises.
http://www.universityhealth.org/14052.cfm

 

[no1tovote4]

But no1, IF this is a procedure that HAS NOT EVER been done or is NOT used, how do you consider this a viable abortion option? I question this ONE doctor's opinion on this....

especially since there is NOTHING, NADA, NIENTE on the internet about this abortion procedure that kills the baby to be in the womb via a injection?

This doctors's hypothetical is not reality.

And yes, I would agree with this doctor's opinion on the SC ruling.....IF and that is a big IF a procedure could be developed that could kill the child in the womb, while keeping them intact, like an injection of some sort that would not harm the mother's health, then the I D&E could be used to deliver the child and they could still suck the brains out of the dead fetus so that delievery of the child to be would be less difficult with the smaller crushed head.

But as far as I can tell, there IS NO SUCH procedure?

Care

But it has been done, she explained on the show that some women request it because of the brutality of the procedure and the wish that their child die more humanely and in less pain. That it isn't regularly performed in this manner doesn't make it impossible, nor does it mean that it has never been done. She also explained that hospitals do not often offer the injections because they are an expense not added to the cost of the procedure. They make a larger profit percentage if they do not offer such comforts.

And yes, because the child pre-deceased the procedure they would still be able to make the head smaller if necessary.

 

[Paul Revere]

More like a nut case looking for attention

Bragging about your self again?

 

[red states rule]

Bragging about your self again?

You seem to be rather paranoid - nothing new

 

[Paul Revere]

You seem to be rather paranoid - nothing new

You seem greatly stupid - nothing new.

So now you are claiming that liberals the equivlent of good intentions.
What next?

 

[TeddyRoosevelt]

he blindly supports the Party of Hate and won't listen to any other viewpoints- just like Bush. He blames all of Bush's lies and failures on "liberals". I think he's Sean Hannity's brother- all fluff and no substance.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

he blindly supports the Party of Hate and won't listen to any other viewpoints- just like Bush. He blames all of Bush's lies and failures on "liberals". I think he's Sean Hannity's brother- all fluff and no substance.

How are you any different when you refer to Republicans as the "Party of Hate?" There are plenty of Republicans here that think RSR is a tool and there are plenty of Republicans that are pissed off at the Bush administration.

 

[TeddyRoosevelt]

some of the posters here comtinue to defend Bush's crimes- they are the ones I'm talking about who have created their own Party of Hate.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public".

-Theodore Roosevelt, Republican president

 

[red states rule]

You seem greatly stupid - nothing new.

So now you are claiming that liberals the equivlent of good intentions.
What next?

You know about the Paul

To liberals, like you, good intentions are more important then actual results

 

[red states rule]

some of the posters here comtinue to defend Bush's crimes- they are the ones I'm talking about who have created their own Party of Hate.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public".

-Theodore Roosevelt, Republican president

Dems are the party of hate

"Some junior high n*gger kicked Steve's ass while he was trying to help his brothers out; junior high or sophomore in high school. Whatever it was, Steve had the n*gger down. However it was, it was Steve's fault. He had the n*gger down, he let him up. The n*gger blindsided him." -- Roger Clinton, the President's brother on audiotape

"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." -- Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)

"Is you their black-haired answer-mammy who be smart? Does they like how you shine their shoes, Condoleezza? Or the way you wash and park the whitey's cars?" -- Song from the show of left-wing radio host Neil Rogers

Blacks and Hispanics are "too busy eating watermelons and tacos" to learn how to read and write." -- Mike Wallace, CBS News. Source: Newsmax

Black on Black

"In the days of slavery, there were those slaves who lived on the plantation and [there] were those slaves that lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master ... exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him. Colin Powell's committed to come into the house of the master. When Colin Powell dares to suggest something other than what the master wants to hear, he will be turned back out to pasture." -- Harry Belafonte

"Republicans bring out Colin Powell and J.C. Watts because they have no program, no policy. They have no love and no joy. They'd rather take pictures with black children than feed them." -- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's Campaign Manager for the 2000 election

(On Clarence Thomas) "A handkerchief-head, chicken-and-biscuit-eating Uncle Tom." -- Spike Lee

"He's married to a white woman. He wants to be white. He wants a colorless society. He has no ethnic pride. He doesn't want to be black." -- California State Senator Diane Watson's on Ward Connerly's interracial marriage

Comments From The Past

"Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds." -- Former Klansman and current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate", in a letter written in 1944, after he quit the KKK.

"I am a former kleagle of the Ku Klux Klan in Raleigh County and the adjoining counties of the state .... The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia .... It is necessary that the order be promoted immediately and in every state of the Union. Will you please inform me as to the possibilities of rebuilding the Klan in the Realm of W. Va .... I hope that you will find it convenient to answer my letter in regards to future possibilities." -- Former Klansman and current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate", in a letter written in 1946, after he quit the KKK.

"These laws [segregation] are still constitutional and I promise you that until they are removed from the ordinance books of Birmingham and the statute books of Alabama, they will be enforced in Birmingham to the utmost of my ability and by all lawful means." -- Democrat Bull Connor (1957), Commissioner of Public Safety for Birmingham, Alabama

"I'll have those n*ggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." -- Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One according Ronald Kessler's Book, "Inside The White House"

(On New York) "K*ketown." -- Harry Truman in a personal letter

"I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's not a n*gger or a Chinaman. Uncle Will says that the Lord made a White man from dust, a ****** from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman. He does hate Chinese and Japs. So do I. It is race prejudice, I guess. But I am strongly of the opinion Negroes ought to be in Africa, Yellow men in Asia and White men in Europe and America." Harry Truman (1911) in a letter to his future wife Bess

"There�s some people who�ve gone over the state and said, �Well, George Wallace has talked too strong about segregation.� Now let me ask you this: how in the name of common sense can you be too strong about it? You�re either for it or you�re against it. There�s not any middle ground as I know of." -- Democratic Alabama Governor George Wallace (1959)

On Jews

"You f*cking Jew b@stard." -- Hillary Clinton to political operative Paul Fray. This was revealed in "State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton" and has been verified by Paul Fray and three witnesses.

"The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He rose Germany up from the ashes." -- Louis Farrakhan (1984) who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002

"Now that nation called Israel, never has had any peace in forty years and she will never have any peace because there can never be any peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under his holy and righteous name." -- Louis Farrakhan who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002, 1984

'Hymies.' 'Hymietown.' -- Jesse Jackson's description of New York City while on the 1984 presidential campaign trail.

"Jews � that's J-E-W-S." -- Democratic state representative Bill McKinney on why his daughter Cynthia lost in 2002

On Whites

"I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health." -- Charles Barron, a New York city councilman at a reparations rally, 2002

"Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them." -- Mary Frances Berry, Chairwoman, US Commission on Civil Rights

(I) "will not let the white boys win in this election." -- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's Campaign Manager on the 2000 election

"The old white boys got taken fair and square." -- San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown after winning an election

"There are white n*ggers. I've seen a lot of white n*ggers in my time." -- Former Klansman and Current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate" in March of 2001

"The Medicaid system must have been developed by a white male slave owner. It pays for you to be pregnant and have a baby, but it won't pay for much family planning." -- Jocelyn Elders

The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the lake of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years." -- Louis Farrakhan who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002, City College audience in New York

"There's no great, white bigot; there's just about 200 million little white bigots out there." -- USA Today columnist Julienne Malveaux

"We have lost to the white racist press and to the racist reactionary Jewish misleaders." -- Former Rep. Gus Savage (D-Illinois) after his defeat 1992

"White folks was in caves while we was building empires... We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it." -- Rev. Al Sharpton in a 1994 speech at Kean College, NJ, cited in "Democrats Do the Dumbest Things

"The white race is the cancer of human history." -- Susan Sontag

"Reparations are a really good way for white people to admit they're wrong." -- Zack Webb, University Of Kentucky NAACP


http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/leftwingracists.php

 

[Paul Revere]

RSR, have you had your Klan Robes dry cleaned lately?

That is you, 3rd from the right back row isn't it?