The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Sixties Fan]

There is room for both with denying either their narratives and historic connections to place.

No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinians long connection to the place by reason of their long residence there.

They are denying that their ancestors included people who existed there prior to the Islamic conquest.

The number of people who would have converted by will or by force is minuscule, compared to the majority of the people who remained Jewish, Bedouins, Druze, and all others who did live there at the time.

But what the Arab Muslim Palestinians have been doing with their BDS campaign, check Abbas' quotes, is to say that the Palestinians people have been there for 5000 years. No, 10,000 years. No, One Million Years.........

About that 10,000-year history in Jericho, Mr. Erekat

Palestine Office Tourism Website Illustrates Absurdity Of Palestinian Narrative

Another Abbas Lie: Palestinians are the Descendants of the Canaanites


Which one could possibly be true? And without any archeological proof.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

''.l

You have been told the history of today's Palestinian people.
You have been told where they came from and how long ago.

They DO NOT come from the region called Palestine in the 5th Century BCE.

And there is no way of changing that.

I do not negate their history, I and others, have told you what their history is, and always have been, and always will be.
There is no way of changing it.

Some clans have been there since the 7th century and others are as recent as coming before 1948.

That is their history. It cannot, and it will not be changed.

Neither I, Israel, not anyone else has forced them to leave.
It has been the Jewish people who were forced to leave their homes from 1920 to 1948, and then again in 2005.
And they want Israel to get out of more land, and then more land.......until they achieve what Mohammad, their Muslim master designed as the way to beat the enemy.

"Khaybar, remember Khaybar" they yell at the Jews.

What do you think they want? To live in peace with the Jews?
Many do, those who live in Israel or those who have been in touch with Jews, and know that they are not the evil monkeys the Quran describes.

I cannot change Where they came from and When they came to the region called Palestine, with their Shieks, and Caliphs and controlled the area until the Crusaders came.

But if do continue to understand you, you seem to think that because a region was name Palestine (because of the Philistines) and that word used by a few at some points in time, that all who lived there were actually known as Palestinians, and were called Palestinians and dealt with the Greeks, the Romans, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc as Palestinians .

Is that what history tells us? That all of those conquerors of ancient Canaan referred to the people on the land as Palestinians ?

How were they refer to them? How did they refer to the Nation they encounter there?

You keep saying "you've been told" "you've been told""you've been told""you've been told" as if your narrative is the only truth while completely ignoring anything counter to it. So get off your high horse please.

What you "seem to think" I think is completely off. You are stuck on SEMANTICS, that is all it is for you. You ignore genetics, you ignore what historians have said (and which I posted) you ignore everything except "they weren't known as Palestinians".

Your entire argument is based on "well no one CALLED them Palestinians".

You completely ignore my questions asking about YOUR views, talking instead about what Israel does.

So again - your own arguments seem to imply you do not feel that the Palestinians have any right of place in that area. Is that how you feel?

Let me give two references from the 1st century CE.

The New Testament

Complete Works of Josephus


Find one mention of Palestinians in either one.

Again. You are going entirely by the existence of a word. This is pointless.

And you are dodging (again) my question.

Your own arguments seem to imply you do not feel that the Palestinians have any right of place in that area. Is that how you feel?

I will answer again.

No, I do not think that the Palestinians DO NOT have the right to have their own place, State, country, etc.

The question remains, what are they waiting for?

So many offers, so many NOs.

What do they want?

That is not what I asked. Do Palestinians have any right of place in that area. That would be the area they have lived for generations if not thousands of years. Not some Jordan. Not Egypt. Not Syria.

You claim that "Palestinians" have lived for thousands of years, even though these "Palestinians" were not invented until recent times. Shouldn't you be dealing in truth rather than fabrication?



Arabs have lived in the general area for several centuries, and Jews for over 3000 years, but any claim that "Palestinians" have lived there for such a time is an utter lie.

 

[Shusha]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Palestinian History. Where is it?

Palestinian museum opens minus exhibits

 

[Shusha]

None of this affects their rights in even the smallest way. No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinian rights.

 

[Coyote]

My personal opinion is that all 3 religions should have equal rights to those sites, as long as people behave peacefully. Unpeaceful people should be removed from the site.

My personal opinon is that it is part of a shared sacred trust, and we can not change the past, we can only try to make the future better.

Your personal opinion about the rights of all three religions is worthless based on what Islam and Christianity have been doing to keep the Jews out of any and all of their Holy Sites and ancient cities.

Jews have a 3800 year history in Hebron but it UNESCO named it a Palestinian (Muslim) World Heritage site.
Where is the spirit of sharing amongst the Palestinians?


Unesco makes Hebron old city Palestinian world heritage site

All of our opinions are worthless but this is a discussion not a summit and I speak for MYSELF only, not all the Palestinians, not all the Jews, not anyone but me. This all about opinions, yours included.

So what do you propose to do about it? What would be a solution?

A discussion is not about opinions only.

I am not giving my opinions as to who the Palestinians are, how long they have lived in the area, etc, etc.
I am quoting facts.

As the saying goes " You have the right to your opinions but not the right to your facts"

I do not propose to "do" anything about it. I am not involved in the negotiations, or attempts to negotiate between the two parties.

Both parties need to come to the table and negotiate, as the Egyptians and Jordanians did.

Solution?

What would make Hamas and the PLO and Fatah do away with their charters, which then might be the start of the peace process between them and Israel?

What is the answer to that? When will they give up on their charters?

When I quote my opinion, I state it as that because you seem to be busy telling me what I am thinking. When I am stating fact, I am clear about it and I include sources as I did with genetics.

Except that your facts come from sources which are mistaken.

I understand that you believe all of those sources, but many have been designed to tell people the opposite of what is true in order to delegitimize the Jewish People.

By saying that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient people of Canaan, they are actually delegitimizing the Jewish people as the ones who are the legitimate indigenous people fo the region.

Oh. I see. My sources are "mistaken"

National Geographic is mistaken.
Tsvi Misinai is "mistaken".
Michael Hammer is "mistaken"
Every source I use is "mistaken" and only you can possibly be factual.

This is ridiculous.

 

[Coyote]

None of this affects their rights in even the smallest way. No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinian rights.

You should talk to MJB, Boston, Indee, Hollie and some of the others.

 

[Coyote]

''.l

You keep saying "you've been told" "you've been told""you've been told""you've been told" as if your narrative is the only truth while completely ignoring anything counter to it. So get off your high horse please.

What you "seem to think" I think is completely off. You are stuck on SEMANTICS, that is all it is for you. You ignore genetics, you ignore what historians have said (and which I posted) you ignore everything except "they weren't known as Palestinians".

Your entire argument is based on "well no one CALLED them Palestinians".

You completely ignore my questions asking about YOUR views, talking instead about what Israel does.

So again - your own arguments seem to imply you do not feel that the Palestinians have any right of place in that area. Is that how you feel?

Let me give two references from the 1st century CE.

The New Testament

Complete Works of Josephus


Find one mention of Palestinians in either one.

Again. You are going entirely by the existence of a word. This is pointless.

And you are dodging (again) my question.

Your own arguments seem to imply you do not feel that the Palestinians have any right of place in that area. Is that how you feel?

I will answer again.

No, I do not think that the Palestinians DO NOT have the right to have their own place, State, country, etc.

The question remains, what are they waiting for?

So many offers, so many NOs.

What do they want?

That is not what I asked. Do Palestinians have any right of place in that area. That would be the area they have lived for generations if not thousands of years. Not some Jordan. Not Egypt. Not Syria.

You claim that "Palestinians" have lived for thousands of years, even though these "Palestinians" were not invented until recent times. Shouldn't you be dealing in truth rather than fabrication?



Arabs have lived in the general area for several centuries, and Jews for over 3000 years, but any claim that "Palestinians" have lived there for such a time is an utter lie.

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I provided sources to back up my claims.

I'm curious - do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

 

[Coyote]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

Their heritage in terms of bloodlines and place most certainly did.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Your personal opinion about the rights of all three religions is worthless based on what Islam and Christianity have been doing to keep the Jews out of any and all of their Holy Sites and ancient cities.

Jews have a 3800 year history in Hebron but it UNESCO named it a Palestinian (Muslim) World Heritage site.
Where is the spirit of sharing amongst the Palestinians?


Unesco makes Hebron old city Palestinian world heritage site

All of our opinions are worthless but this is a discussion not a summit and I speak for MYSELF only, not all the Palestinians, not all the Jews, not anyone but me. This all about opinions, yours included.

So what do you propose to do about it? What would be a solution?

A discussion is not about opinions only.

I am not giving my opinions as to who the Palestinians are, how long they have lived in the area, etc, etc.
I am quoting facts.

As the saying goes " You have the right to your opinions but not the right to your facts"

I do not propose to "do" anything about it. I am not involved in the negotiations, or attempts to negotiate between the two parties.

Both parties need to come to the table and negotiate, as the Egyptians and Jordanians did.

Solution?

What would make Hamas and the PLO and Fatah do away with their charters, which then might be the start of the peace process between them and Israel?

What is the answer to that? When will they give up on their charters?

When I quote my opinion, I state it as that because you seem to be busy telling me what I am thinking. When I am stating fact, I am clear about it and I include sources as I did with genetics.

Except that your facts come from sources which are mistaken.

I understand that you believe all of those sources, but many have been designed to tell people the opposite of what is true in order to delegitimize the Jewish People.

By saying that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient people of Canaan, they are actually delegitimizing the Jewish people as the ones who are the legitimate indigenous people fo the region.

Oh. I see. My sources are "mistaken"

National Geographic is mistaken.
Tsvi Misinai is "mistaken".
Michael Hammer is "mistaken"
Every source I use is "mistaken" and only you can possibly be factual.

This is ridiculous.

Tsvi Misinai is simply "claiming" what he believes. There is no proof of it.

Tsvi Misinai - Wikipedia

Who has verified Hammer's work?

Michael Hammer - Google Scholar Citations

 

[Coyote]

There is room for both with denying either their narratives and historic connections to place.

No one on TI is denying Arab Palestinians long connection to the place by reason of their long residence there.

They are denying that their ancestors included people who existed there prior to the Islamic conquest.

The number of people who would have converted by will or by force is minuscule, compared to the majority of the people who remained Jewish, Bedouins, Druze, and all others who did live there at the time.

There is no way of knowing with any accuracy how many.

But what the Arab Muslim Palestinians have been doing with their BDS campaign, check Abbas' quotes, is to say that the Palestinians people have been there for 5000 years. No, 10,000 years. No, One Million Years.........

About that 10,000-year history in Jericho, Mr. Erekat

Palestine Office Tourism Website Illustrates Absurdity Of Palestinian Narrative

Another Abbas Lie: Palestinians are the Descendants of the Canaanites


Which one could possibly be true? And without any archeological proof.

The first one is hardly a scientific article nor one written by historical experts. What is your point?

Same with the second one.

The third one could, oddly have some merit based on the dna analysis referred to in the National Geographic article you refer to as "mistaken".

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

 

[Shusha]

Denying them ties to the region is denying them rights to it - and I see that [often enough when they talk of sending them to Jordan for example.

Yeah, but dividing Palestine into two States -- 75% for the Arab people of the area and 25% for the Jewish people of the area (and her returning people) seems more than fair to the Arabs. Its a legit argument. That the Arab State is Jordan. And the Jewish State is Israel -- all of it. Remembering that, at the time, and NOW, the Arabs do not see any difference in IDENTITY between "Palestinians" and "Jordanians". (Or Syrians).

And there are NO posters here who think that Palestinians should be sent to Jordan simply on the principle that they are Arab. Every single poster here on TI rejects that. Some have suggested that if the Arab Palestinians can't be non-violent that the only solution is to segregate them. But that is a COMPLETELY different discussion.

 

[Coyote]

All of our opinions are worthless but this is a discussion not a summit and I speak for MYSELF only, not all the Palestinians, not all the Jews, not anyone but me. This all about opinions, yours included.

So what do you propose to do about it? What would be a solution?

A discussion is not about opinions only.

I am not giving my opinions as to who the Palestinians are, how long they have lived in the area, etc, etc.
I am quoting facts.

As the saying goes " You have the right to your opinions but not the right to your facts"

I do not propose to "do" anything about it. I am not involved in the negotiations, or attempts to negotiate between the two parties.

Both parties need to come to the table and negotiate, as the Egyptians and Jordanians did.

Solution?

What would make Hamas and the PLO and Fatah do away with their charters, which then might be the start of the peace process between them and Israel?

What is the answer to that? When will they give up on their charters?

When I quote my opinion, I state it as that because you seem to be busy telling me what I am thinking. When I am stating fact, I am clear about it and I include sources as I did with genetics.

Except that your facts come from sources which are mistaken.

I understand that you believe all of those sources, but many have been designed to tell people the opposite of what is true in order to delegitimize the Jewish People.

By saying that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient people of Canaan, they are actually delegitimizing the Jewish people as the ones who are the legitimate indigenous people fo the region.

Oh. I see. My sources are "mistaken"

National Geographic is mistaken.
Tsvi Misinai is "mistaken".
Michael Hammer is "mistaken"
Every source I use is "mistaken" and only you can possibly be factual.

This is ridiculous.

Tsvi Misinai is simply "claiming" what he believes. There is no proof of it.

Tsvi Misinai - Wikipedia

Which is different from your sources how?

Who has verified Hammer's work?

Michael Hammer - Google Scholar Citations

Who needs to? Articles don't get published without going through a strict process.

Prove he is wrong - show me scientific studies disproving what he has found.

 

[Sixties Fan]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

Their heritage in terms of bloodlines and place most certainly did.

No Palestinian has shown any proof of being descendant from the ancient Canaanites, so far.
Which one of the many Canaanite tribes/nations did they come from, exactly? Do they know? Have they said it?

Abbas alleges that they are from the Jebusite tribe, but that tribe was conquered by King David and Jerusalem became the Capital of Israel back then.

Where is their written history?

Where is the DNA study which actually shows Abbas' family coming from the area of Jerusalem 3000 to 4000 years ago, and not from an area of Arabia, which is where they came from?

 

[Coyote]

So...look who chooses to make an appearance.

I don't have the right to post here?

You really do hate the truth, though, don't you? The truth of the matter is that there were no "Palestinians" until they were invented during my own lifetime.

Are you going to make yet another one of my postings disappear, though? That would make, what, a few hundred by now?

Did I say anything about your right to post here? No. If you have a problem with moderation - you know what to do. Take it up via pm.


Do you believe Palestinians have any right of place to the area currently referred to as Palestine?

 

[Coyote]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

Their heritage in terms of bloodlines and place most certainly did.

No Palestinian has shown any proof of being descendant from the ancient Canaanites, so far.
Which one of the many Canaanite tribes/nations did they come from, exactly? Do they know? Have they said it?

Abbas alleges that they are from the Jebusite tribe, but that tribe was conquered by King David and Jerusalem became the Capital of Israel back then.

Where is their written history?

Where is the DNA study which actually shows Abbas' family coming from the area of Jerusalem 3000 to 4000 years ago, and not from an area of Arabia, which is where they came from?

Abbas is making a claim. I have no idea if it's true or not. He's a politician. You can choose political sources if you want, but I am sticking to science.

 

[Sixties Fan]

A discussion is not about opinions only.

I am not giving my opinions as to who the Palestinians are, how long they have lived in the area, etc, etc.
I am quoting facts.

As the saying goes " You have the right to your opinions but not the right to your facts"

I do not propose to "do" anything about it. I am not involved in the negotiations, or attempts to negotiate between the two parties.

Both parties need to come to the table and negotiate, as the Egyptians and Jordanians did.

Solution?

What would make Hamas and the PLO and Fatah do away with their charters, which then might be the start of the peace process between them and Israel?

What is the answer to that? When will they give up on their charters?

When I quote my opinion, I state it as that because you seem to be busy telling me what I am thinking. When I am stating fact, I am clear about it and I include sources as I did with genetics.

Except that your facts come from sources which are mistaken.

I understand that you believe all of those sources, but many have been designed to tell people the opposite of what is true in order to delegitimize the Jewish People.

By saying that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient people of Canaan, they are actually delegitimizing the Jewish people as the ones who are the legitimate indigenous people fo the region.

Oh. I see. My sources are "mistaken"

National Geographic is mistaken.
Tsvi Misinai is "mistaken".
Michael Hammer is "mistaken"
Every source I use is "mistaken" and only you can possibly be factual.

This is ridiculous.

Tsvi Misinai is simply "claiming" what he believes. There is no proof of it.

Tsvi Misinai - Wikipedia

Which is different from your sources how?

Who has verified Hammer's work?

Michael Hammer - Google Scholar Citations

Who needs to? Articles don't get published without going through a strict process.

Prove he is wrong - show me scientific studies disproving what he has found.

We do not claim. We have shown to the world historical, archeological, etc proof of the Jewish people being indigenous of the area.

The Palestine museum remains empty.

 

[Coyote]

Denying them ties to the region is denying them rights to it - and I see that [often enough when they talk of sending them to Jordan for example.

Yeah, but dividing Palestine into two States -- 75% for the Arab people of the area and 25% for the Jewish people of the area (and her returning people) seems more than fair to the Arabs. Its a legit argument. That the Arab State is Jordan. And the Jewish State is Israel -- all of it. Remembering that, at the time, and NOW, the Arabs do not see any difference in IDENTITY between "Palestinians" and "Jordanians". (Or Syrians).

And there are NO posters here who think that Palestinians should be sent to Jordan simply on the principle that they are Arab. Every single poster here on TI rejects that. Some have suggested that if the Arab Palestinians can't be non-violent that the only solution is to segregate them. But that is a COMPLETELY different discussion.

It is not a legit argument, it's an inhuman one.

There absolutely are those who think that Palestinians should be expelled elsewhere. I'll look them up but for a start - look at MJB's posts.

 

[Sixties Fan]

They existed prior to the Arab Muslim conquests

No. They did not. Their heritage and their identity did not exist prior to the conquests. The conquests formed their identity. The conquests transformed their identity. (Indeed, their identity did not transform until the Jewish return. Their identity developed as a direct response to the Jewish return). They can't just drop their Arabness and BE Jewish, or Caananite. Their identity is tied to their Arabness.

The Jewish people, and their culture, in its entirety, existed prior to the conquests. Has existed for 3000+years.

Their heritage in terms of bloodlines and place most certainly did.

No Palestinian has shown any proof of being descendant from the ancient Canaanites, so far.
Which one of the many Canaanite tribes/nations did they come from, exactly? Do they know? Have they said it?

Abbas alleges that they are from the Jebusite tribe, but that tribe was conquered by King David and Jerusalem became the Capital of Israel back then.

Where is their written history?

Where is the DNA study which actually shows Abbas' family coming from the area of Jerusalem 3000 to 4000 years ago, and not from an area of Arabia, which is where they came from?

Abbas is making a claim. I have no idea if it's true or not. He's a politician. You can choose political sources if you want, but I am sticking to science.

The Palestinian Museum remains empty.