The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Shusha]

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

They can't both be first nations. First Nations, by definition, are those who have not adopted the culture of invading or conquering peoples. First Nations are those who were there before conquests and invasions. Whose culture arose in that place. This does not mean that those who have adopted the culture of the invading or conquering peoples have no rights -- just that their rights don't arise from being First Nations. The whole, entire point of identifying First Nations peoples is to provide them with protection against stronger, invading and conquering forces.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

Well, I don't see Team Israel negating Palestinian rights. I think they argue against indigeneity (as I do), but those are not equivalent. As I am trying to point out. But there is no need for them to be equivalent. There is no harm done for them BOTH to have rights, even if those rights arise from different sources. And I think Team Israel is, without exception, in agreement that BOTH Israel and Palestinians have rights to their own national self-determination and some sort of sovereignty. The primary argument that Team Israel makes is not that Palestinians have no rights -- but that they are (currently) incapable of exercising those rights.

Which is a chasm of difference to the Team Palestine argument that the "Zionists" (read: Jews) have no rights.


If I was to "sum up" the positions of the Teams now that I've been here a year or so, I would frame it this way:

Team Palestine: The Jewish people have no rights because they are not really a people.

Team Israel: The Palestinians are behaving badly and until their behaviour improves they are incapable of governing a nation.

 

[abu afak]

$1000 says it's within 0.1% of everyone else's DNA.
DNA survey finds all humans are 99.9pc the same
Although scientists have long recognised that, despite physical differences, all human populations are genetically similar, the new work concludes that populations from different parts of the world share even more genetic similarities than previously assumed.
All humans are 99.9 per cent identical and, of that tiny 0.1 per cent difference, 94 per cent of the variation is among individuals from the same populations and only six per cent between individuals from different populations.
Nonetheless, the team found that tiny differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individual men and women.
....

I'll save you some money Wind boy.
The Human Genome Project in 2000 was the source of that "99.9%" Error, and they corrected it in 2007.
(after your 2002 obsolete article).
Venter and co, in 2007, retested, including his Own DNA, and found the difference was "Over Seven times as great" as they originally thought.

Finding said to show “race isn’t real” scrapped
Sept. 3, 2007
Special to World Science

A renowned scientist has backed off a finding that he, joined by others, long touted as evidence for what they called a proven fact: that racial differences among people are imaginary.

That idea—entrenched today in academia, and often used to castigate scholars who study race—has drawn much of its scientific backing from a finding that all people are 99.9% genetically alike.

But geneticist Craig Venter, head of a research team that reported that figure in 2001, backed off it in an announcement this week. He said human variation now turns out to be Over Seven times greater than was thought, though he’s not changing his position on race.
[........]
The findings reveal “human-to-human variation is more than SEVEN-fold greater than earlier estimates, proving that we are in fact very unique individuals at the genetic level,” Venter said.

The 99.9% figure might need to be lowered to about 99%, he added.
The findings are to appear in the October issue of the online research journal PLoS Biology. Venter added that the cost of sequencing an individual person’s genome is rapidly dropping, and that a decade from now, “thousands or tens of thousands” will have their DNA code written out.....​

Of course, Chimps are 98.6% the same, so 99% is about 2/3 of the distance we have from another Species.
Plenty of room for Huge human group difference/Race/Subspecies.

I also suggest you Google the term 'Lewontins Fallacy'.
This is a specialty of mine, and... uh...
You can just PayPal me $500: Half what you Offered/owe.
noblesse oblige
`

 

[Phoenall]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Yet another poster who insists that the universal and inalienable rights which belong to all people don't belong to the Jewish people because the Jewish people don't "count" -- are not a people, a race, a culture, an ethnicity.

So, again, I ask: by what criteria do you determine this? What makes Palestinians a "race" (people, culture, ethnicity) and deserving of self-determination and a nation?

You keep trying to make this a race/religion thing. It is not. That is why you are confused.

No it isnt as that is the basis the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians use. Read their national charter and see how many time their religion is invoked in their thrteats against the Jews and Christians.

It is you that is confused due to your stupidity in denying the truth.

 

[Phoenall]

And Team Israel uses it to negate the rights of Palestinians.

Here's another thought as to why I think you are wrong. Or why the two sides are not equivalent in their thinking on this.

The Jewish rights to part of that territory arise from their indigeniety -- their origins in that place, the preservation of their unique culture both in that place and in the diaspora. The Jewish rights arise from the idea that invasion, conquest, exile, ethnic cleansing and genocide do not remove universal and inalienable rights from a people.

The Palestinian rights do not arise from their indigeniety. They arise from an acknowledgment that a thousand years of history can not be unmade. (It would be ridiculous to send everyone but the First Nations peoples of all the Americas back to their countries of origin).

This does not mean that Palestinians rights are negated. It just means they come from another place.

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

So how can people who arrived in palestine between 1920 and 1948 uninvited and illegally be indigenous. The UN let the cat out of the bag when it had to create a whole new regime of refugee because the arab muslims did not meet the existing criteria. They brought in the two year rule to try and rig the situation and found that so many had not even been there for 2 years. This meant that a whole new refugee status for just the arab muslim illegal immigrants had to be created and it is called UNWRA. They now have over 6 million refugees on their books when the original numbers were 300,000, even though the original remit of the UN was to find permanent homes for the refugees none have accepted citizenship of their new nation of residence. The arab muslims are milking the refugee status for all it is worth and the UN should be forcing them to stand on their own feet after 3 years as a refugee. Every other refugee group finds a new life within 3 years so why are the arab muslims allowed to make propaganda out of their self imposed plight

 

[Phoenall]

And Team Israel uses it to negate the rights of Palestinians.

Here's another thought as to why I think you are wrong. Or why the two sides are not equivalent in their thinking on this.

The Jewish rights to part of that territory arise from their indigeniety -- their origins in that place, the preservation of their unique culture both in that place and in the diaspora. The Jewish rights arise from the idea that invasion, conquest, exile, ethnic cleansing and genocide do not remove universal and inalienable rights from a people.

The Palestinian rights do not arise from their indigeniety. They arise from an acknowledgment that a thousand years of history can not be unmade. (It would be ridiculous to send everyone but the First Nations peoples of all the Americas back to their countries of origin).

This does not mean that Palestinians rights are negated. It just means they come from another place.

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

So how can people who arrived in palestine between 1920 and 1948 uninvited and illegally be indigenous. The UN let the cat out of the bag when it had to create a whole new regime of refugee because the arab muslims did not meet the existing criteria. They brought in the two year rule to try and rig the situation and found that so many had not even been there for 2 years. This meant that a whole new refugee status for just the arab muslim illegal immigrants had to be created and it is called UNWRA. They now have over 6 million refugees on their books when the original numbers were 300,000, even though the original remit of the UN was to find permanent homes for the refugees none have accepted citizenship of their new nation of residence. The arab muslims are milking the refugee status for all it is worth and the UN should be forcing them to stand on their own feet after 3 years as a refugee. Every other refugee group finds a new life within 3 years so why are the arab muslims allowed to make propaganda out of their self imposed plight

The biggest argument against partitioning Israel any further to placate the arab muslims is that of the arab muslims themselves. They refused point blank to have anything to do with the creation of a non muslim nation in the former Ottoman empire from 1917 right up until 1988, and then only paid lip service to the acceptance of a solution. Their own charter spells it out that they will never accept Israel as a nation in palestine, and will try and destroy it so the land can become just another islamonazi hellhole. Time for the world to stand up to the muslims and tell them any more violence and they will face sanctions from the whole world, including blocking travel outside of islamic nations

 

[theliq]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Still pushing your anti semitic Jew hatred. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs, They have never been one people because of the concept of islam, and have only one thing in common islamonazi mentallity.

The Jews are a proven seperate race that has no genetic links to the arab muslims other than that of the human Genome. The arab muslims you hero worship come from all of the islamic world just to fight the Jews and get beaten every time.

ALL YOU HAVE IS YOUR HATE SITES AND PROPAGANDA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT MOST OF YOUR CLAIMS

The Jews are NOT a RACE anymore as I have explained clearly to you

 

[Phoenall]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Still pushing your anti semitic Jew hatred. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs, They have never been one people because of the concept of islam, and have only one thing in common islamonazi mentallity.

The Jews are a proven seperate race that has no genetic links to the arab muslims other than that of the human Genome. The arab muslims you hero worship come from all of the islamic world just to fight the Jews and get beaten every time.

ALL YOU HAVE IS YOUR HATE SITES AND PROPAGANDA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT MOST OF YOUR CLAIMS

The Jews are NOT a RACE anymore as I have explained clearly to you

No you have stated your opinion, you have not explained or proved that the Jews are not a race. The only evidence you have is that from the extremist websites that have the genocide of the Jews as their overall aim. The definitive studies have shown that the Jews from Europe, America and Asia all have the same DNA chromosome match with the Jews from the M.E. who never left the land 2000 years ago. The arab muslims claiming to be Palestinians have a completely different DNA to the Jews which is why they refuse to have the test. They know that it will show they are not indigenous to the area and have recently arrived as illegal immigrants.

The fact that Winston Churchill stood up in Parliament and stated the arab muslims were illegally migrating to Palestine shows that you are trying to hide the truth. At most less than 1% of the worlds Jews are converts because unlike the muslims and Christiansd they don't go touting for people to convert to Judaism.

 

[Divine Wind]

....The 99.9% figure might need to be lowered to about 99%, he added....
`

Might need ≠ needs to be

Thanks for the info. Do you think "race" exists or not? Does your expertise say we should still divide people into caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid and aboriginoid racial groups? What race are Palestinians? Jews?

 

[Divine Wind]

The Jews are NOT a RACE anymore as I have explained clearly to you

Neither are the Palestinians as you claimed earlier.

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

They can't both be first nations. First Nations, by definition, are those who have not adopted the culture of invading or conquering peoples. First Nations are those who were there before conquests and invasions. Whose culture arose in that place. This does not mean that those who have adopted the culture of the invading or conquering peoples have no rights -- just that their rights don't arise from being First Nations. The whole, entire point of identifying First Nations peoples is to provide them with protection against stronger, invading and conquering forces.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

Well, I don't see Team Israel negating Palestinian rights. I think they argue against indigeneity (as I do), but those are not equivalent. As I am trying to point out. But there is no need for them to be equivalent. There is no harm done for them BOTH to have rights, even if those rights arise from different sources. And I think Team Israel is, without exception, in agreement that BOTH Israel and Palestinians have rights to their own national self-determination and some sort of sovereignty. The primary argument that Team Israel makes is not that Palestinians have no rights -- but that they are (currently) incapable of exercising those rights.

Which is a chasm of difference to the Team Palestine argument that the "Zionists" (read: Jews) have no rights.


If I was to "sum up" the positions of the Teams now that I've been here a year or so, I would frame it this way:

Team Palestine: The Jewish people have no rights because they are not really a people.

Team Israel: The Palestinians are behaving badly and until their behaviour improves they are incapable of governing a nation.

I'm pretty sure we hashed this out before vis a vis "first nations" status. I don't agree that Jews are "first nations", particularly given most left thousands of years ago, meanwhile the Palestinians include people who are descended from the same peoples the Jews are.

Here's my summation:

Team Palestine: The Jewish people have no rights because they are foreign invaders and not really a people.

Team of a few reasonable people: The Jewish people have a right to self determination, and a right for their nation to exist and be recognized. Those rights are based on the fact they have deep cultural ties to the region, and that they have been there for thousands of years. That right also includes a recognition of and respect for the rights of the indiginous and immigrant Palestinian people and their right to self determination.

Team Israel: The Palestinians have no rights because they are foreign invaders and not really a people.

Team of a few reasonable people: The Palestinian people have a right to self determination the right to build their own state. Those rights are based on the fact they have deep cultural ties to the region, and that they have been there for thousands of years. That right includes a recognition of and a respect for the rights of the indiginous and immigrant Jewish peoples. The expression of that right is based on their ability to co-exist peacefully with their neighbors.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

They can't both be first nations. First Nations, by definition, are those who have not adopted the culture of invading or conquering peoples. .

By that definition, Jews really can't be considered "First Nations". They've adopted the culture of the people's they immigrated to which is essentially the same thing. A large part of what we consider Jewish culture today comes from the interaction of Judaism with East European culture.

 

[Phoenall]

....The 99.9% figure might need to be lowered to about 99%, he added....
`

Might need ≠ needs to be

Thanks for the info. Do you think "race" exists or not? Does your expertise say we should still divide people into caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid and aboriginoid racial groups? What race are Palestinians? Jews?

The originals were, and the term was used as an insult by firstly the Christians and later the muslims. It was only in the 1960's that the Soviets told arafat to use the name as a means of giving the arab muslims some credibility.

 

[Phoenall]

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

They can't both be first nations. First Nations, by definition, are those who have not adopted the culture of invading or conquering peoples. First Nations are those who were there before conquests and invasions. Whose culture arose in that place. This does not mean that those who have adopted the culture of the invading or conquering peoples have no rights -- just that their rights don't arise from being First Nations. The whole, entire point of identifying First Nations peoples is to provide them with protection against stronger, invading and conquering forces.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

Well, I don't see Team Israel negating Palestinian rights. I think they argue against indigeneity (as I do), but those are not equivalent. As I am trying to point out. But there is no need for them to be equivalent. There is no harm done for them BOTH to have rights, even if those rights arise from different sources. And I think Team Israel is, without exception, in agreement that BOTH Israel and Palestinians have rights to their own national self-determination and some sort of sovereignty. The primary argument that Team Israel makes is not that Palestinians have no rights -- but that they are (currently) incapable of exercising those rights.

Which is a chasm of difference to the Team Palestine argument that the "Zionists" (read: Jews) have no rights.


If I was to "sum up" the positions of the Teams now that I've been here a year or so, I would frame it this way:

Team Palestine: The Jewish people have no rights because they are not really a people.

Team Israel: The Palestinians are behaving badly and until their behaviour improves they are incapable of governing a nation.

I'm pretty sure we hashed this out before vis a vis "first nations" status. I don't agree that Jews are "first nations", particularly given most left thousands of years ago, meanwhile the Palestinians include people who are descended from the same peoples the Jews are.

Here's my summation:

Team Palestine: The Jewish people have no rights because they are foreign invaders and not really a people.

Team of a few reasonable people: The Jewish people have a right to self determination, and a right for their nation to exist and be recognized. Those rights are based on the fact they have deep cultural ties to the region, and that they have been there for thousands of years. That right also includes a recognition of and respect for the rights of the indiginous and immigrant Palestinian people and their right to self determination.

Team Israel: The Palestinians have no rights because they are foreign invaders and not really a people.

Team of a few reasonable people: The Palestinian people have a right to self determination the right to build their own state. Those rights are based on the fact they have deep cultural ties to the region, and that they have been there for thousands of years. That right includes a recognition of and a respect for the rights of the indiginous and immigrant Jewish peoples. The expression of that right is based on their ability to co-exist peacefully with their neighbors.

Try keeping to the facts as most did not leave, they where taken as slaves by the Roman invaders. If the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians were descended from the Jews then they cant be arab and would have been wiped out in the many pogroms over the years. The many people who visited the holy land prior to WW1 all said the same thing, that the land was barren and devoid of life other than pockets of Jewish farmers and nomadic arab workers. Even Winston Churchill stood up in Parliament and stated that the arab muslims were flooding palestine in their thousands illegally.



I see that you deny the Jews their legal, moral, religious and human rights to have international law support their claim,s to the land of Israel, and to have the international law that bans Jews from living in Jordan, and arab muslims from living in the Jewish national home. Everything comes down to INTERNATIONAL LAW and which ones are valid for the Jews ?


Now how many homelands do the arab muslims want in palestine, seeing as they received 78% in 1924 and were not satisfied so invaded and demanded it all.

 

[Phoenall]

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

They can't both be first nations. First Nations, by definition, are those who have not adopted the culture of invading or conquering peoples. .

By that definition, Jews really can't be considered "First Nations". They've adopted the culture of the people's they immigrated to which is essentially the same thing. A large part of what we consider Jewish culture today comes from the interaction of Judaism with East European culture.

LINK and EVIDENCE to support your RACIST claims. As the Jewish culture is the same no matter where you go in the world. Just as the muslim culture is the same no matter where they live. Even converts have to change their ways to be the same.

WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IS WHAT IS POSTED ON ALL THE HATE SITES TO DISENFRANCHISE THE JEWS OF THEIR LEGAL, MORAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

 

[Shusha]

A large part of what we consider Jewish culture today comes from the interaction of Judaism with East European culture.

I don't think that statement is defensible. But the objective reality of this statement aside, you are doing EXACTLY the same thing that the rest of Team Palestine does -- which is to argue that the Jewish people in the diaspora are not really Jewish, but simply Europeans.

What's the resistance to just embracing the idea that the Jewish people's ancestral and spiritual homeland is Israel?

 

[Shusha]

I don't agree that Jews are "first nations", particularly given most left thousands of years ago, meanwhile the Palestinians include people who are descended from the same peoples the Jews are.

This is another argument for negating the rights of the Jewish people. Its the same argument used by the rest of Team Palestine, even with the attempt at subtlety.

The Jewish people "left", therefore they have no longer have rights. The Jewish people did not "leave". The Jewish people were genocided, ethnically cleansed and exiled. If you want to put forth the moral argument that genocide, ethnic cleansing and exile removes rights from people, in order to be consistent, you must apply that to the current conflict. Only the Palestinians who have not "left" have any rights.

Of course the Arab Palestinians are descended from a mixture of the local population (the Jewish people) and the invaders. Who is arguing against that? That doesn't make them First Nations.

 

[Coyote]

A large part of what we consider Jewish culture today comes from the interaction of Judaism with East European culture.

I don't think that statement is defensible. But the objective reality of this statement aside, you are doing EXACTLY the same thing that the rest of Team Palestine does -- which is to argue that the Jewish people in the diaspora are not really Jewish, but simply Europeans.

What's the resistance to just embracing the idea that the Jewish people's ancestral and spiritual homeland is Israel?

How is it not defensible? Jewish culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not arguing they are not "Jewish", you can be Jewish and European. I'm arguing that they don't really qualify as "First Nations" by that definition and the main reason this "First Nation" stuff is being pushed is as a way to create a divide between and heirarchy of rights in relation to Jews and Palestinians and that region of the world.

I have no objection to the idea that the Jewish people's ancestral and spiritual homeland is Israel - in fact, I acknowledged their deep cultural ties to the region. Why is it necessary to insist they have "First Nation" status in the face of the fact that the ancestral Jewish culture has changed through the mixing of the cultures they've adapted to and why is it so important to deny this? The Palestinians became Arabicized, not sure why it's taboo to note that Jews became Eurpeanized.

 

[Shusha]

Why is it necessary to insist they have "First Nation" status ...

Because it is far too common in the world today, even at the top most international level to deny the Jewish people's history. Its a defense against an attack.

Why is it so necessary to deny the Jewish people "First Nations" status?

 

[Coyote]

I don't agree that Jews are "first nations", particularly given most left thousands of years ago, meanwhile the Palestinians include people who are descended from the same peoples the Jews are.

This is another argument for negating the rights of the Jewish people. Its the same argument used by the rest of Team Palestine, even with the attempt at subtlety.

No it isn't. So please don't put words in my mouth.

I don't base rights on indiginuity. That's nothing more than an attempt by Team Israel to negate rights to the group that is not indiginous.
In my opinion, rights of place belong to those who are there and have been there. Jews have been there for thousands of years, and so have Palestinians. They need to figure out how to share their land. That's my view towards rights and it doesn't disenfranchise either group.

The Jewish people "left", therefore they have no longer have rights. The Jewish people did not "leave". The Jewish people were genocided, ethnically cleansed and exiled. If you want to put forth the moral argument that genocide, ethnic cleansing and exile removes rights from people, in order to be consistent, you must apply that to the current conflict. Only the Palestinians who have not "left" have any rights.

A couple of points here. First, we are talking about events thousands of years ago. We are talking about a history that is largely narrated in a book of mythology - some stories are supported by archaeology, others are not. There is no way of knowing the accuracy of any accountings since, after all it is written by one people's view point. "Genocided, ethnically cleansed, and exiled" are not concepts that existed thousands of years ago, neither did the more rigourous vetting of historical narratives that modern reasearchers of history bring to the field. People fought, migrated, conquered, pillaged and raped with impunity and determining what really happened can be pretty far from clear so trying to apply modern concepts and terms to ancient events seems self serving. Even the concept of "rights" is a relatively recent one.

And, actually, I have stated this before: I don't feel those who have left have any special rights in regards to returning once generations have passed and they've created a home elsewhere. For example, the Palestinians that have immigrated to the US don't have any special rights to return. Same with the "right of return" - that exists only for those who were actually dispossed, not succeeding generations. I apply that equally to Jews and Palestinians. Any other rights are those granted by the state - in the case of Israel, the state has granted a "right of return" for Jews.

Of course the Arab Palestinians are descended from a mixture of the local population (the Jewish people) and the invaders. Who is arguing against that? That doesn't make them First Nations.

Why Team Israel of course.

 

[Coyote]

Why is it necessary to insist they have "First Nation" status ...

Because it is far too common in the world today, even at the top most international level to deny the Jewish people's history. Its a defense against an attack.

Why is it so necessary to deny the Jewish people "First Nations" status?

One doesn't have to be "First Nation" people's to have a right to their own history, culture and narratives.

Why is it so necessary to deny the Palestinians "First Nations" status?