The obligations of non-Jews, per Judaism

[Kim]

What their version of God expects from them if they want to be treated by their God like Jews are treated by their God. I really am not seeing your objection to that. At least their version of God doesn't smite down people that aren't "true believers."

Biblical View of God:
My religious beliefs (including my view of God) stem from the Bible: Tanakh (Christian Old Testament). Some may add additional texts, but I, personally, only consider the Tanakh to be "Holy Scripture." Observant Jews also use this same Bible to get their view of God. I believe Jesus was an observant Jew and that is why he called only this Tanakh "Holy Scripture." I'm not interested in a view of God that I create in my own mind like a child's invisible playmate; I read the Bible to get a biblical view of God.

AS AN ASIDE, when his brother, James was "managing" Jesus' followers (after Jesus died), the movement was still considered a sect of Judaism, one that believed Jesus was the Messiah. Nearly all of the first followers were Jewish, not Gentile. Later, when people like Paul (who never met Jesus) started "evangelizing" among Gentiles, the movement grew quickly but mostly because Paul allowed the Gentiles to blend their old gods and religions with their new belief in this God of the Jews. Paul and James argued about this; in the public meeting (recorded in the NT), Paul said James was right and went out & made a sacrifice to prove to everyone that he didn't advocate Jews stopping circumcision or any other part of Judaism - but Gentiles were not required to circumcize or eat kosher. But the New Testament was written 80-120 after Jesus's death, without his help. Actually, the NT is a collection of letters from some followers to others & many similar letters were not canonized into the NT, because they disagreed with doctrines preached by the time.


TOLERANCE: Many people think of the Bible as pro-Israel & anti-everyone else. But they have not read or attempted to comprehend what's written in the Bible. When Israel is commanded regarding their courts, you find passages like, "Hear out your fellow men, and decide justly between any man and a fellow Israelite or a stranger." When I started the conversion process, the rabbi asked why I was converting but my daughter was not. My answer came from the Bible where Israel was told that they were not allowed to worship other gods because they were eyewitnesses to miracles that proved that God was the only real God, but as to all the other nations (at the time), God had allotted to them the sun, and moon, and the stars. Does that sound like God was going to send all the "non-believers" to hell, or something? Not at all.

 

[dilloduck]

No. They don't... and you don't know what you're talking about because you use this as a negative, and yet another jew-bashing thing...

what a hateful crud...

Jews don't believe non-jews are noahides and have obligations to God ? Look--this poster comes on and invites questions. He has been politley answering them. What's your beef ? There has been NO jew bashing going on. Zero

 

[Kim]

Don't most religions presume that their god is the supreme ruler of the earth, with power over believers and non believers alike?

I don't get this whole Naugahyde issue though I do agree that real leather is more comfortable.

Yes, I think most religions do presume that their god is the only god. But I heard a Hawaiian (minister?) say they believe in God, but they call him ___. Muslims say they believe in the same God as Jews, but they call him Allah. Most religions/cultures that are monotheistic say they believe the is only One True God, but that we all have different names for that same God. My version of this One True God comes from the Tanakh.

 

[dilloduck]

Yes, I think most religions do presume that their god is the only god. But I heard a Hawaiian (minister?) say they believe in God, but they call him ___. Muslims say they believe in the same God as Jews, but they call him Allah. Most religions/cultures that are monotheistic say they believe the is only One True God, but that we all have different names for that same God. My version of this One True God comes from the Tanakh.

So basically you are saying that there is a way of being spiritual in somewhat the same manner as a Jew even if you are not Jewish because the Old Testament defines acceptable behavior for Jews and Noahides. You have decided to reject Christianity but not the old testament.

 

[Ravi]

Biblical View of God:
My religious beliefs (including my view of God) stem from the Bible: Tanakh (Christian Old Testament). Some may add additional texts, but I, personally, only consider the Tanakh to be "Holy Scripture." Observant Jews also use this same Bible to get their view of God. I believe Jesus was an observant Jew and that is why he called only this Tanakh "Holy Scripture." I'm not interested in a view of God that I create in my own mind like a child's invisible playmate; I read the Bible to get a biblical view of God.

AS AN ASIDE, when his brother, James was "managing" Jesus' followers (after Jesus died), the movement was still considered a sect of Judaism, one that believed Jesus was the Messiah. Nearly all of the first followers were Jewish, not Gentile. Later, when people like Paul (who never met Jesus) started "evangelizing" among Gentiles, the movement grew quickly but mostly because Paul allowed the Gentiles to blend their old gods and religions with their new belief in this God of the Jews. Paul and James argued about this; in the public meeting (recorded in the NT), Paul said James was right and went out & made a sacrifice to prove to everyone that he didn't advocate Jews stopping circumcision or any other part of Judaism - but Gentiles were not required to circumcize or eat kosher. But the New Testament was written 80-120 after Jesus's death, without his help. Actually, the NT is a collection of letters from some followers to others & many similar letters were not canonized into the NT, because they disagreed with doctrines preached by the time.


TOLERANCE: Many people think of the Bible as pro-Israel & anti-everyone else. But they have not read or attempted to comprehend what's written in the Bible. When Israel is commanded regarding their courts, you find passages like, "Hear out your fellow men, and decide justly between any man and a fellow Israelite or a stranger." When I started the conversion process, the rabbi asked why I was converting but my daughter was not. My answer came from the Bible where Israel was told that they were not allowed to worship other gods because they were eyewitnesses to miracles that proved that God was the only real God, but as to all the other nations (at the time), God had allotted to them the sun, and moon, and the stars. Does that sound like God was going to send all the "non-believers" to hell, or something? Not at all.

Were you agreeing with me?

 

[dilloduck]

CALL IN THE INTERPRETER FOR RAVI !!

 

[Kim]

So basically you are saying that there is a way of being spiritual in somewhat the same manner as a Jew even if you are not Jewish because the Old Testament defines acceptable behavior for Jews and Noahides. You have decided to reject Christianity but not the old testament.

Yes, I believe that biblically, a Gentile does not need to convert to Judaism to be o.k. with God.

The Jewish Tanakh is identical (just a little different order of the books) to the Protestant Old Testament. The Catholic Bible, however, includes a few books in their Old Testament that are not included in the Tanakh or Protestant OT.

I began as an atheist, got into Christianity for a little while, began a conversion to Orthodox Judaism, and over 20 years ago settled on a biblical faith - as a Gentile - that does not include the New Testament.

 

[Kim]

Were you agreeing with me?

Yes. Sorry, I can get pretty long-winded here.

 

[dilloduck]

Yes, I believe that biblically, a Gentile does not need to convert to Judaism to be o.k. with God.

The Jewish Tanakh is identical (just a little different order of the books) to the Protestant Old Testament. The Catholic Bible, however, includes a few books in their Old Testament that are not included in the Tanakh or Protestant OT.

I began as an atheist, got into Christianity for a little while, began a conversion to Orthodox Judaism, and over 20 years ago settled on a biblical faith - as a Gentile - that does not include the New Testament.

Well good luck with it. Sounds pretty straight foreward.

 

[frazzledgear]

BS"D

Incredibly, many people today are not aware of what Judaism has to say about what G-d expects of non-Jews. Torah Law as a whole applies to the Jewish people, but what about the rest of humanity? hasidicuniversity.org is a Web site in progress to present the religious obligations of non-Jews, according to Judaism. It's a big project, and the details are still being worked out. I'd be interested in any feedback or comments for discussion.

I took a closer look at that site and do not see some kind of weird religious obligations or "expectations" placed upon gentiles by the Torah that you seem to think it does. Maybe you missed it, but this is all in reference to gentiles living under Jewish RULE and Jewish laws -at a time Israel once existed in the past. Since today's Israel is under democratic rule and not strictly under Jewish law - it doesn't even apply to today's Israel.

But since this was all written at a time when Israel existed before and is in reference to people who were ruled by a Jewish king - and before the existence of today's Israel, it includes stuff like not cursing the king. Not ALL kings around the world, not just ANY king -but THE Jewish king who ruled over gentiles and Jews alike within his kingdom. So both Jews and gentiles alike under his rule were obligated to follow that one -no cursing the king allowed. But that was NOT something that was ever intended to apply to gentiles around the world with regard to any other king. And it was NOT something gentiles who lived under some other rule were obligated to obey either.

This is no different from the fact we have laws that apply to every single person in the country regardless of their own personal religious beliefs too. For example, forced conversions are acceptable under Islam -but no Muslim may force non-Muslims in THIS country to convert or in any way force non-Muslims to practice Islam. Some Christians object strongly to the liberal abortion laws, but they still have no legal right to prevent others from getting an abortion. This is about which laws applied to everyone living under Jewish rule regardless of religious beliefs.

It was actually much more benign than many other countries did in the past and even do to this day. How did non-Catholics fare in Europe when under Catholic rule? How did Catholics fare when under Protestant rule? Certainly these laws that applied to all regardless of whether a Jew or not were far less harsh from what Iran does today. Iran forces compliance with Muslim law and rule that applies to non-Muslims even though those laws are based entirely on the Koran -with harsh, even lethal, punishment for those who do not obey them.

Nothing on that site has any relevance to today and is obviously quite specific for that time only. Do you know anyone today, whether living under Jewish rule or not, gentile or not -who would take a living animal, cut off one of its limbs and eat it, and then put that three-legged animal out to pasture afterwards instead of slaughtering and butchering the entire animal? Forbidding that practice was a law that applied to Jews and gentiles alike who lived under Jewish rule -even though Jews were already obligated to follow that one due to their religious beliefs anyway.

None of this was EVER intended to place expectations on gentiles around the world because clearly this was in reference to gentiles specifically living under Jewish rule -simply reinforcing the fact that some laws, even though based on the Jewish religion and ones they may not fully comprehend the reasoning behind it -were also the law of the land that applied to everyone without exception.

 

[mightypeon]

I am thinking the same here, if you read the bible, the reading has to be done in the historical context. The bible was written during a time were the first laws were established, establishing a system of laws that would call upon supernatural/post mortem rewards was a relativly new and effective idea (at that time). It apperantly gave the old Israelite Kings an advantadge which meant that their histories survived.
It obviuosly made sense to extend it to conquered different people, since law obeying gentiles would obviously be nicer than not law obeying ones.

As has been noted, these noahide laws have both secular and religious components, I would simply see them as something like the "common law of old Israel" .

 

[Kim]

Sorry I haven't replied sooner; I was away.

The long and short of it, THE SHORT FIRST, is this.

In the Bible, God said to Noah “I will establish My covenant with you and your offspring to come” – hence the term, Noahide Covenant. Noah’s offspring to come is all humanity. “When the bow (rainbow) is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant” – it is relevant today because this covenant will always be in effect. Noah was called “righteous” because he obeyed God’s instructions, just as Abraham was later called righteous because he obeyed God. This is all straight from the Bible, not from any commentary. Noah and Abraham were Gentiles; Israel did not yet exist. These Gentiles were called “righteous” because they obeyed God, God’s instructions, that we call the “Noahide Covenant” or “Noahide Laws.”

When you read the Bible, from the beginning until the life of Abraham, you find many instructions from God to people – all Gentiles. After this point in Tanakh, God gives additional laws (aka instructions, obligations, commandments) to specific people whose descendants are Israel, the Jews, and those Gentiles who “convert” to become Jews. Israel is taught to not only obey the precepts of the eternal Noahide Covenant, but also the additional ones that only Israel is obligated to observe – an additional everlasting covenant. From Abraham on, you learn what is expected of Gentiles via what God says or does in response to Gentile behavior. One must read the Tanakh to learn “Noahide Law.”

Regarding details, like the animal cruelty issue you brought up, we can discuss those in later posts, as you wish.

To summarize, I offer this story:
Again it happened that a non-Jew came before Shammai and said to him, “Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.” Thereupon he pushed him away with the builder’s ammah-stick which was in his hand. When he went before Hillel, he (Hillel) said to him, “What you hate, do not do to your peer: that is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary. Go and learn it.”

That’s the short reply to the previous two posts here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LONG VERSION is this:

Yes, it is good to read the Bible in the historical and cultural context because that helps us understand what was said and why. And three millenniums of wise, scholarly commentary are helpful, but without the education to understand that commentary, it can be confusing and even misleading to the untrained eye. It can lead one to not be able to see the forest for the trees; so it can be difficult to cut through all that to see the core of God's message in the Bible (Tanakh / Christian Old Testament) and why it is relevant today.

If you believe in God, you already have a relationship with God. What you do with that relationship is up to you.

Do your beliefs in God stem from what you want Him/Her to be, how you think God should behave? And if those imagined characteristics and behavior you assigned to your God prove to be false? Do you stop believing in God, because you think God disappointed you? Perhaps your view of God was faulty because it came from your imagination rather than the Bible.

I came to a belief in God on my own. Years later, I began to read the Bible; as I continued to read and study it, I came to understand God, myself, and other people better. I studied history, archeology, and biblical commentaries to help me place the biblical text in context. I also made two trips to Israel to see and touch many of the places referred to in the Bible. These combined experiences, all this research and travel, gave me external evidence to confirm the authenticity of the Tanakh. My eventual conclusion: the God I know and pray to is the same One that gave us the Tanakh – as a gift and guide for life – one that is as valuable and relevant today as it was in the past and as it will be in the future. The Bible teaches us how to live our lives with God-given wisdom via stories, history, poetry, and allegory. The truth of this wisdom is timeless.

The Bible says of Noah, “Noah was a righteous man; he was blameless in his age; Noah walked with God.” Although in English, this passage appears to be saying that Noah was perfect, that is not what it really means in the original Hebrew language. God considered Noah to be righteous because he “walked with God,” meaning that he lived conscience of God’s presence; Noah made a continual effort to live as God instructed him. This is akin to later passages that call Abraham “righteous” because he obeyed God.

There is NO reference here connecting righteousness to “heaven” or to life after our physical bodies have died. Biblically, we don’t do what’s right (moral according to God) so that we can get into heaven or avoid eternal punishment in “hell.” The Bible teaches us to be righteous because this behavior improves your life (and the lives of others) here on earth, today. Manmade religions have a curious obsession with “life after death” – e.g. heaven and hell, “day of the dead,” “book of the dead,” or choosing to be martyred in order to obtain some heavenly reward. The whole idea of a god sending you to “hell” if you don’t believe this or that is not taught in the Tanakh. In contrast to manmade religions, the Tanakh contains very few passages regarding the soul / spirit living on after the physical body has died. Rather, the emphasis is on how we live our lives here on earth – how we treat ourselves and other people, how we treat animals and our physical environment. For me, a big part of learning Tanakh was to “unlearn” all the incorrect teachings that I had previously received.

To summarize: The life instructions God gave to all humanity are relevant to everyone, everywhere, in every age because that’s what Tanakh teaches us.

P.S. For those who are interested in the historical and physical context of the Tanakh, one book I enjoy is Bruce Feiler’s “WALKING THE BIBLE – a Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses” found in bookstores or at Bruce Feiler - walking God Was Born, Walking The Bible.

 

[dilloduck]

Sorry I haven't replied sooner; I was away.

The long and short of it, THE SHORT FIRST, is this.

In the Bible, God said to Noah “I will establish My covenant with you and your offspring to come” – hence the term, Noahide Covenant. Noah’s offspring to come is all humanity. “When the bow (rainbow) is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant” – it is relevant today because this covenant will always be in effect. Noah was called “righteous” because he obeyed God’s instructions, just as Abraham was later called righteous because he obeyed God. This is all straight from the Bible, not from any commentary. Noah and Abraham were Gentiles; Israel did not yet exist. These Gentiles were called “righteous” because they obeyed God, God’s instructions, that we call the “Noahide Covenant” or “Noahide Laws.”

When you read the Bible, from the beginning until the life of Abraham, you find many instructions from God to people – all Gentiles. After this point in Tanakh, God gives additional laws (aka instructions, obligations, commandments) to specific people whose descendants are Israel, the Jews, and those Gentiles who “convert” to become Jews. Israel is taught to not only obey the precepts of the eternal Noahide Covenant, but also the additional ones that only Israel is obligated to observe – an additional everlasting covenant. From Abraham on, you learn what is expected of Gentiles via what God says or does in response to Gentile behavior. One must read the Tanakh to learn “Noahide Law.”

Regarding details, like the animal cruelty issue you brought up, we can discuss those in later posts, as you wish.

To summarize, I offer this story:
Again it happened that a non-Jew came before Shammai and said to him, “Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.” Thereupon he pushed him away with the builder’s ammah-stick which was in his hand. When he went before Hillel, he (Hillel) said to him, “What you hate, do not do to your peer: that is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary. Go and learn it.”

That’s the short reply to the previous two posts here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LONG VERSION is this:

Yes, it is good to read the Bible in the historical and cultural context because that helps us understand what was said and why. And three millenniums of wise, scholarly commentary are helpful, but without the education to understand that commentary, it can be confusing and even misleading to the untrained eye. It can lead one to not be able to see the forest for the trees; so it can be difficult to cut through all that to see the core of God's message in the Bible (Tanakh / Christian Old Testament) and why it is relevant today.

If you believe in God, you already have a relationship with God. What you do with that relationship is up to you.

Do your beliefs in God stem from what you want Him/Her to be, how you think God should behave? And if those imagined characteristics and behavior you assigned to your God prove to be false? Do you stop believing in God, because you think God disappointed you? Perhaps your view of God was faulty because it came from your imagination rather than the Bible.

I came to a belief in God on my own. Years later, I began to read the Bible; as I continued to read and study it, I came to understand God, myself, and other people better. I studied history, archeology, and biblical commentaries to help me place the biblical text in context. I also made two trips to Israel to see and touch many of the places referred to in the Bible. These combined experiences, all this research and travel, gave me external evidence to confirm the authenticity of the Tanakh. My eventual conclusion: the God I know and pray to is the same One that gave us the Tanakh – as a gift and guide for life – one that is as valuable and relevant today as it was in the past and as it will be in the future. The Bible teaches us how to live our lives with God-given wisdom via stories, history, poetry, and allegory. The truth of this wisdom is timeless.

The Bible says of Noah, “Noah was a righteous man; he was blameless in his age; Noah walked with God.” Although in English, this passage appears to be saying that Noah was perfect, that is not what it really means in the original Hebrew language. God considered Noah to be righteous because he “walked with God,” meaning that he lived conscience of God’s presence; Noah made a continual effort to live as God instructed him. This is akin to later passages that call Abraham “righteous” because he obeyed God.

There is NO reference here connecting righteousness to “heaven” or to life after our physical bodies have died. Biblically, we don’t do what’s right (moral according to God) so that we can get into heaven or avoid eternal punishment in “hell.” The Bible teaches us to be righteous because this behavior improves your life (and the lives of others) here on earth, today. Manmade religions have a curious obsession with “life after death” – e.g. heaven and hell, “day of the dead,” “book of the dead,” or choosing to be martyred in order to obtain some heavenly reward. The whole idea of a god sending you to “hell” if you don’t believe this or that is not taught in the Tanakh. In contrast to manmade religions, the Tanakh contains very few passages regarding the soul / spirit living on after the physical body has died. Rather, the emphasis is on how we live our lives here on earth – how we treat ourselves and other people, how we treat animals and our physical environment. For me, a big part of learning Tanakh was to “unlearn” all the incorrect teachings that I had previously received.

To summarize: The life instructions God gave to all humanity are relevant to everyone, everywhere, in every age because that’s what Tanakh teaches us.

P.S. For those who are interested in the historical and physical context of the Tanakh, one book I enjoy is Bruce Feiler’s “WALKING THE BIBLE – a Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses” found in bookstores or at Bruce Feiler - walking God Was Born, Walking The Bible.

It is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding, to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws
I'm a bit unclear on that quote--can you give me a hand ?

 

[Kim]

I'm a bit unclear on that quote--can you give me a hand ?

Sorry, I don't know, either. Perhaps this was posted by the person who started this thread?

 

[dilloduck]

Sorry, I don't know, either. Perhaps this was posted by the person who started this thread?

na--it was out of the wiki--n/m.

 

[Shogun]

I bet you could ask Walter Sobchak

 

[Kim]

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm a bit unclear on that quote--can you give me a hand ?

"It is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding, to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do."


To REALLY answer your question, I would have to find out the source of this quote from Wikipedia. But, in general, IF (and it's a big if) they got such a quote from Talmud (Oral Law), the only thing that comes to mind is that the Talmud is not like an orderly textbook. Throughout the centuries, the Talmud records debates between Sages (particularly learned rabbis). If you cannot read the entire debate and the conclusion of the debate (consensus of opinions), then it's easy to take a quote out of context and think that this one comment WAS the final decision. I suspect that is what was happening here. Some Sage might have brought up what others know is NOT true in order to spark a debate, so that others would state why they know this statement is NOT true.

In reality, a Gentile may convert to Judaism and therefore observe everything that is obligated (by God) for Jewish people to do. The "consensus" opinion is that a Gentile who voluntarily takes this on "is like a high priest" because he/she was not obligated to do this.

A Gentile who does not convert, like me, is "allowed" to perform most of the mitzvot given to Israel, but there are exceptions.

Does that help?

 

[Seraph]

...as part of their obligations to G-d, gentiles must in many ways support the proper, Torah-mandated religious activities of the Jewish people, financially and otherwise

What does this mean, particularly the 'financially' part?

 

[Kim]

What does this mean, particularly the 'financially' part?

Quotes: Originally Posted by us4israel
...as part of their obligations to G-d, gentiles must in many ways support the proper, Torah-mandated religious activities of the Jewish people, financially and otherwise

What does this mean, particularly the 'financially' part?

FIRST, If you are supportive of Israel, please read Condi pulls a Solomon: Split Jerusalem in 2
This is an article dated 8/25 about Secretary of State, Dr. Condoleeza Rice using her influence to Split Jerusalem in 2 THIS YEAR. Personally, I faxed part of this article & my strong objection to (202) 647-2283.

TO ANSWER your question: Because I believe in God and the Bible, part of my reaction to "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" (God says to Israel / Jews), I do what I can to be supportive of Jewish people. Among other things, this means I encourage them to be observant (Orthodox Judaism).

Financially, I do different things to help. For example, I have given donations to the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Also, even though I am NOT Jewish, I buy kosher products vs. non-kosher when I can (see the labels) in grocery stores - products are discontinued if not enough people purchase them.

Does this answer your question, or is there something else?

 

[Anguille]

Wow! This thread is even more nutty than the Trinity one.