The obligations of non-Jews, per Judaism

[William Joyce]

But still, white people are certainly welcome to form their own caucus.

Not sure "welcome" is the right word... they'd be hit with tomatoes right off the bat.

 

[dilloduck]

I heard someone say to get a teacher(s) for yourself and be a teacher for someone else. I love to teach my grandchildren. And I enjoy listening to and conversing with a teacher who really knows his/her stuff. When I went back to school (for more accounting knowledge), I experienced both sides & I really enjoyed it.

The only reason that Jewish bible scholars know more than Gentile scholars is because they know Hebrew, they devoted a lot more of their lives to studying, and they study the works of centuries of great scholars.

However, most of what I know today has been from my own reading & studying the Bible, and anyone can do that.

They were COMMANDED to study it weren't they ? Why don't they just translate it ?

 

[Kim]

They were COMMANDED to study it weren't they ? Why don't they just translate it ?

They have translated it e.g. the JPS Tanakh & others. But yes, you are correct that they were commanded to study it, too.

"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. Take to heart these instructions with which I charge you this day. Impress them upon your children. Recite them when you stay at home and when you get up. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them serve as a symbol on your forehead; inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates." - Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Basically, God separated out Israel (Jews) for the purpose of being a blessing to all of humanity, "a light to the nations", and they cannot fulfill that purpose without totally immersing themselves in Tanakh.

 

[Shogun]

a master rac, er, "chosen" race. gotcha.

 

[Kim]

a master rac, er, "chosen" race. gotcha.

What ARE you talking about? Israel is NOT a master race. It wouldn't matter if God "chose" the Norweigians or the Cherokee people. There was (and is) a job to be done & God simply had to give it to some one. Are you offended when your boss chooses someone else to do a job (instead of you) just because they were trained for it and you weren't? O.k. then get yourself trained to do that job & you can get the job. If you want the job God assigned to Israel, then you are free to convert to (Orthodox) Judaism.

If you read the other thread "Noahide Questions" I think you'll understand this concept better.

The Bible (Tanakh / Old Testament) contains countless passages that make it clear that Israel (Jews) are not and have never been superior to any other people. Also, any Gentile can convert to Judaism - so it's not a race thing.

 

[Shogun]

riiiiight.


hey, im not the one who coined the CHOSEN race. and, lets stop pretending that goyim can just convert and become a cohen, ok? Kim Wang doesn't become jewish just because he gets his dick snipped and recites the correct lines. Your belief in the chosen status of jews, regardless of how it's rationalized, illustrates the convenient necessity of a second covenant. I'm betting the cannanites understood the laughable nature of a "chosen" group of human right before they were torn to shreds for their land.. despite noahide traditions..


and yes.. if Aryans claimed that white caucasians were the chosen of god then it would matter. It did matter.

 

[Ravi]

riiiiight.


hey, im not the one who coined the CHOSEN race. and, lets stop pretending that goyim can just convert and become a cohen, ok? Kim Wang doesn't become jewish just because he gets his dick snipped and recites the correct lines. Your belief in the chosen status of jews, regardless of how it's rationalized, illustrates the convenient necessity of a second covenant. I'm betting the cannanites understood the laughable nature of a "chosen" group of human right before they were torn to shreds for their land.. despite noahide traditions..


and yes.. if Aryans claimed that white caucasians were the chosen of god then it would matter. It did matter.

Nice! You've given up pretending you believe only Israelis are racists, you finally admit you think all Jews are racist.

You are still wrong and still racist. A convert Judaism is a Jew.

 

[Kim]

riiiiight.


hey, im not the one who coined the CHOSEN race. and, lets stop pretending that goyim can just convert and become a cohen, ok? Kim Wang doesn't become jewish just because he gets his dick snipped and recites the correct lines. Your belief in the chosen status of jews, regardless of how it's rationalized, illustrates the convenient necessity of a second covenant. I'm betting the cannanites understood the laughable nature of a "chosen" group of human right before they were torn to shreds for their land.. despite noahide traditions..


and yes.. if Aryans claimed that white caucasians were the chosen of god then it would matter. It did matter.

The necessity of a 2nd covenant? If you don't accept the 1st covenant, then why would you care about a 2nd one?

As a matter of fact, one of the most respected Jewish scholars of all time, Rabbi Akiva, was a Gentile who converted to Judaism.

Sounds like your problem is with God, not Israel. You don't like God's decision to have a permanent covenant with Gentiles, so you want a different covenant. You don't like that God chose to separate out a group and giving them the job of maintaining and communicating the Tanakh. You don't like that God gave this group a specific land to be theirs permanently. You don't like that God told them to take the Cannanites land for this purpose. Read the Bible; the Cannanites were so cruel to each other and their neighbors that the Bible says the land vomited them out, because of the cries of those they continually hurt. By the way, it's not such a great piece of land. God didn't choose the "best" land to give to his "favorite" people. On the contrary, it's a hilly and not very fertile land that experienced doesn't have enough rain. The only reason Israel got that land is because of the behavior of the Cannanites. But regardless of the reason, that was God's choice to give it to Israel, not theirs.

By the way, the biblical "new covenant" is not the same as Christianity. See Jeremiah where God says He/she will make a new covenant with Israel, not Gentiles. Gentiles already had a covenant with God that didn't change when Jesus came. Jesus's only Bible was the Tanakh and the New Testament teaches Gentiles different than Jews because that's what Jesus's Tanakh teaches. If you have a problem with the teachings in the Tanakh, then you have a problem with Jesus and God.

 

[editec]

Hi, I was just curious if you've ever read the Bible or have any interest in it?

I was a confirmed Lutheran so yes, I studied the Bible as a young boy and then young man.

We worked from the King James version.

I haven't read the whole Bible, though, if that was your real question.

We skipped around a lot and focused (as I recall this being quite some time back) on the NT's books, Matthew Mark Luke and John.

I credit that time as the probable reason I ended up with duel majors in college...one in literature, the other history.

After that experience, understanding Shakespeare was a breeze.

 

[Shogun]

au contraire..

Romans 9:6-8
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The first covenant was entered into by Ole ABE and applied to jews as a supposedly "chosen" people but the SECOND Covenant, REJECTED BY JEWS no less, was in fact applied regardless of jewish or gentile nomenclature.

And, respected or not, SCHOLARLY or not, Wang Chung the convert from Asia is no more jewish than you would be Chinese if you switched to Geiko, er, Buddhism.


Now, please... before you start bobbing and weaving about Cannan lets recall what the SCRIPTURES say about it..

Exodus
7 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.'


Rationalizing about the Canaanites losing their land? tsk tsk tsk.. tell me about those horrible people some more...

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


Deuteronomy 7
Driving Out the Nations
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Deuteronomy 20:16-18

Listen to this passage

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.


YEA... you really have a solid pice of ground to stand on with that demonization of Canaan.

The Shogun brand Atheism (TM)
showing dogma junkies for what they are since 1977

 

[Anguille]

I do not believe in God/s and am baffled by people who do. But what I find even more baffling is that many of these believers in God actually think they speak for their God!

If I was God, I wouldn't put up with that.

 

[dilloduck]

God chose to separate out a group and gave them the job of maintaining and communicating the Tanakh.

Why don't you convert to Judaism instead of being a Noahide doing the work that God gave to the Jews ? If the Old Testament has been translated from Hebrew into English, why is there any need to understand Hebrew to study the Old Testament?

 

[Kim]

I was a confirmed Lutheran so yes, I studied the Bible as a young boy and then young man.

We worked from the King James version.

I haven't read the whole Bible, though, if that was your real question.

We skipped around a lot and focused (as I recall this being quite some time back) on the NT's books, Matthew Mark Luke and John.

I credit that time as the probable reason I ended up with duel majors in college...one in literature, the other history.

After that experience, understanding Shakespeare was a breeze.

My first Bible was a little King James version that my mother gave me. When I was in about 3rd grade, my parents sent my sister and me to Sunday school at the Lutheran church down the block. We complained about getting homework, so they didn't make us go anymore.

I didn't start reading the Bible until I was in my late 20's. And it wasn't long before I switched to a version that was easier to read. Funny thing, though, compared with other Christian translations into English, it turned out that the old King James Version was the most accurate.

 

[Kim]

au contraire..

Romans 9:6-8
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The first covenant was entered into by Ole ABE and applied to jews as a supposedly "chosen" people but the SECOND Covenant, REJECTED BY JEWS no less, was in fact applied regardless of jewish or gentile nomenclature.

And, respected or not, SCHOLARLY or not, Wang Chung the convert from Asia is no more jewish than you would be Chinese if you switched to Geiko, er, Buddhism.


Now, please... before you start bobbing and weaving about Cannan lets recall what the SCRIPTURES say about it..

Exodus
7 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.'


Rationalizing about the Canaanites losing their land? tsk tsk tsk.. tell me about those horrible people some more...

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


Deuteronomy 7
Driving Out the Nations
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Deuteronomy 20:16-18

Listen to this passage

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.


YEA... you really have a solid pice of ground to stand on with that demonization of Canaan.

The Shogun brand Atheism (TM)
showing dogma junkies for what they are since 1977

O.k. so you're saying that you are an atheist? Well, then all this Bible quoting is absolute nonsense. If you really are an atheist, why are you participating in this conversation at all? Isn't all this just a moot point to atheists?

And based on what you chose to quote and not to quote, you don't know the text of the Bible very well, either. Any I wouldn't expect you to. Many years ago, I considered myself an atheist; at that time, the Bible was a moot point to me. I wouldn't have wasted my time talking Bible with anyone.

 

[Kim]

Why don't you convert to Judaism instead of being a Noahide doing the work that God gave to the Jews ? If the Old Testament has been translated from Hebrew into English, why is there any need to understand Hebrew to study the Old Testament?

I did consider converting to Judaism before I understood what God gave to Gentiles. I had gone through a few months of the conversion process (Orthodox), but eventually decided that it was not for me. My take on it: God doesn't make mistakes. God created a lot more Gentiles than Jews for a reason & made me a Gentile for a reason. Some feel inexplicably drawn to convert to Judaism & that's great for them; I just didn't feel the need to convert. I realized that God has a lot to offer Gentiles - a biblical way of life that applies to us that is fulfilling - so I chose not to convert.

The Tanakh (Christian Old Testament) has been translated into English, but the more Hebrew I learn, the more errors I found in English translations of the original text. If you know a 2nd language, you understand how difficult it is to translate correctly. I recall some American car maker placing an ad in Mexico & translated so poorly that in Spanish it was a very offensive ad.

Some translation errors that I have found were due to the translator not understanding Hebrew very well. Other "errors" I found were due to choosing Christian doctrine over what the Hebrew actually said (evidently, because they didn't like what it actually said), and translating accordingly. Unfortunately, most of these translations have been around for hundreds of years so most people assume they are correct. I remember being shocked when I first started discovering such errors on my own.

I have read numerous translations over the years and found the most accurate one to be "Tanakh" by JPS (Jewish Publication Society).

 

[dilloduck]

I did consider converting to Judaism before I understood what God gave to Gentiles. I had gone through a few months of the conversion process (Orthodox), but eventually decided that it was not for me. My take on it: God doesn't make mistakes. God created a lot more Gentiles than Jews for a reason & made me a Gentile for a reason. Some feel inexplicably drawn to convert to Judaism & that's great for them; I just didn't feel the need to convert. I realized that God has a lot to offer Gentiles - a biblical way of life that applies to us that is fulfilling - so I chose not to convert.

The Tanakh (Christian Old Testament) has been translated into English, but the more Hebrew I learn, the more errors I found in English translations of the original text. If you know a 2nd language, you understand how difficult it is to translate correctly. I recall some American car maker placing an ad in Mexico & translated so poorly that in Spanish it was a very offensive ad.

Some translation errors that I have found were due to the translator not understanding Hebrew very well. Other "errors" I found were due to choosing Christian doctrine over what the Hebrew actually said (evidently, because they didn't like what it actually said), and translating accordingly. Unfortunately, most of these translations have been around for hundreds of years so most people assume they are correct. I remember being shocked when I first started discovering such errors on my own.

I have read numerous translations over the years and found the most accurate one to be "Tanakh" by JPS (Jewish Publication Society).

I don't understand--I'm asking for a translation from Hebrew into English done by a rabbi who knows what he's doing. Is there a serious problem accomplishing that or is there disagreement among rabbis about what the hebrew words actually mean in English.

 

[editec]

Is there a serious problem accomplishing that or is there disagreement among rabbis about what the hebrew words actually mean in English.

Translations are an art, not a science.

People, honest people with pure intentions, will continue debating the meaning of passages in the Bible forever.

The panel of scholars which translated the Bible for King James were no intellectual slouches, either, folks.

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just saying...sort of a waste of time for most of us debating this issue.

Who among us is scholar enough to posit anything meaningful except what some other real scholar told us?

I don't speak ancient Greek, Aramaic, Latin and ancient Hebrew...do any of us?

I think not.

 

[dilloduck]

Translations are an art, not a science.

People, honest people with pure intentions, will continue debating the meaning of passages in the Bible forever.

The panel of scholars which translated the Bible for King James were no intellectual slouches, either, folks.

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just saying...sort of a waste of time for most of us debating this issue.

Who among us is scholar enough to posit anything meaningful except what some other real scholar told us?

I don't speak ancient Greek, Aramaic, Latin and ancient Hebrew...do any of us?

I think not.

Im' not asking about the meanings of the passages---I mean the words themselves. That would allow me to read the actual words and see what they are. Hebrew isn't some dead language. As a gentile (Noahide) it might be interesting to see what the God of the Jews has to say about my obligations.

 

[Kim]

I don't understand--I'm asking for a translation from Hebrew into English done by a rabbi who knows what he's doing. Is there a serious problem accomplishing that or is there disagreement among rabbis about what the hebrew words actually mean in English.

The most accurate translation from Hebrew to English, that I have found (and I've checked out a lot), is entitled, "TANAKH" by The Jewish Publication Society (JPS) 1985. With that information, you will be able to order a copy online. This version is all in English.

Once you receive it, if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer (or research the question) for you.

The preface states that this translation from Hebrew to English "was made directly from the traditional Hebrew text into the idiom of modern English. It represents the collaboration of academic scholars with rabbis..."

In 1999, JPS also released TANAKH with the English translation alongside the original Hebrew text - if you ever want something like that.

 

[dilloduck]

The most accurate translation from Hebrew to English, that I have found (and I've checked out a lot), is entitled, "TANAKH" by The Jewish Publication Society (JPS) 1985. With that information, you will be able to order a copy online. This version is all in English.

Once you receive it, if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer (or research the question) for you.

The preface states that this translation from Hebrew to English "was made directly from the traditional Hebrew text into the idiom of modern English. It represents the collaboration of academic scholars with rabbis..."

In 1999, JPS also released TANAKH with the English translation alongside the original Hebrew text - if you ever want something like that.

Why would I have any questions? I can read English. I mean it's all there in black and white isn't it ?