The New New Math: Government Revenues are taken in by Magic.

[code1211]

Those aren't all the taxes you pay. If you rent or own, you pay property taxes. You also pay sales taxes.

I'm in that high salary bracket too.

I like my services. Do you?

I sure do. Wouldn't live anywhere else. Except that I'm moving to San Francisco for work. Damn.

Ummm... Huh?

 

[mdn2000]

We are indentured servants, slaves, to the elite, the elite are Republicans and Democrats and their friends in banks, on wall street, in corporations, etc.

Not all the rich are elite snobs we serve, it only takes a minority, its the elite in the country that screw us.

The elite, who are they, they are tied into the government, they go hand and hand.

Taxes and collecting money from us is their power. We are forced to bailout their bad home loans, world wide, which saves the tax base, property taxes are based on home values, so bail out the financial market to keep the values of homes from dropping so the government/elite does not lose a major source of cash.

Houses are overpriced hence over taxed. No property tax, no thirty year loans, that only hurts government and the elites.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I don't get the disconnect between government revenues and taxes. That..is how government funds itself..mainly through taxation. Cut taxes and there were be less money to spend. And we've been spending money like crazy lately; two wars, a brand new agency, a brand new entitlement, bailing out corporate fuck ups and saving our banking, financial and insurance institutions. And this year..more butter. An extention of the Bush taxs cuts..yay!

Drying up the government, as Grover Norquist suggests, is going to make this country look like Guatemala..without the charm.

Krugman's take:

Op-Ed Columnist
The New Voodoo
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: December 30, 2010

Hypocrisy never goes out of style, but, even so, 2010 was something special. For it was the year of budget doubletalk — the year of arsonists posing as firemen, of people railing against deficits while doing everything they could to make those deficits bigger.

And I don’t just mean politicians. Did you notice the U-turn many political commentators and other Serious People made when the Obama-McConnell tax-cut deal was announced? One day deficits were the great evil and we needed fiscal austerity now now now, never mind the state of the economy. The next day $800 billion in debt-financed tax cuts, with the prospect of more to come, was the greatest thing since sliced bread, a triumph of bipartisanship

<-snip-<

How will this all end? I have seen the future, and it’s on Long Island, where I grew up.

Nassau County — the part of Long Island that directly abuts New York City — is one of the wealthiest counties in America and has an unemployment rate well below the national average. So it should be weathering the economic storm better than most places.

But a year ago, in one of the first major Tea Party victories, the county elected a new executive who railed against budget deficits and promised both to cut taxes and to balance the budget. The tax cuts happened; the promised spending cuts didn’t. And now the county is in fiscal crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, the incoming House majority plans to make changes in the “pay-as-you-go” rules — rules that are supposed to enforce responsible budgeting — that effectively implement Mr. Kyl’s principle. Spending increases will have to be offset, but revenue losses from tax cuts won’t. Oh, and revenue increases, even if they come from the elimination of tax loopholes, won’t count either: any spending increase must be offset by spending cuts elsewhere; it can’t be paid for with additional taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As this last Snowstorm in NYC proved..the people that complain the loudest are people that have that tax/finance the goverment disconnect.

Less revenue = Less Services.

Everytime.

Actually it is a proven fact that to a certain point lowering taxes brings in MORE taxes as people that hide money and seek loop holes quit doing so.

It is a matter of cost. If taxes are lowered and loop holes eliminated reasonably then more people actually pay their taxes. As the cost not to do so goes up past the point they are saving by doing so. And the Government collects MORE money.

Eliminating loopholes is not lowering taxes. It is raising taxes.

 

[mdn2000]

I don't get the disconnect between government revenues and taxes. That..is how government funds itself..mainly through taxation. Cut taxes and there were be less money to spend. And we've been spending money like crazy lately; two wars, a brand new agency, a brand new entitlement, bailing out corporate fuck ups and saving our banking, financial and insurance institutions. And this year..more butter. An extention of the Bush taxs cuts..yay!

Drying up the government, as Grover Norquist suggests, is going to make this country look like Guatemala..without the charm.

Krugman's take:



As this last Snowstorm in NYC proved..the people that complain the loudest are people that have that tax/finance the goverment disconnect.

Less revenue = Less Services.

Everytime.

Actually it is a proven fact that to a certain point lowering taxes brings in MORE taxes as people that hide money and seek loop holes quit doing so.

It is a matter of cost. If taxes are lowered and loop holes eliminated reasonably then more people actually pay their taxes. As the cost not to do so goes up past the point they are saving by doing so. And the Government collects MORE money.

Eliminating loopholes is not lowering taxes. It is raising taxes.

Not if you LOWER TAXES then eliminate the loop hole. A loop hole reducing 50% tax to 40% is more tax than a simple 10% tax.

 

[Intense]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

How EXACTLY do you think government is funded?

Really? Where do you think they get their liquidity from?

Bake sales? A magic pot of gold?

What?

When you think about 11 carrier fleets...do you think they are doing those for free?

Do you think your local cops are patrol streets out of the goodness of their hearts?

Do you think the guys picking up your trash daily think it's a fun sport?

I don't get where you get these extremely stupid ideas from.

The problem is the parasite outgrowing the host Sallow. You have an appetite that you can't afford. Live within your means. To condition the Robot Masses by giving them entitlements with other peoples money, to get votes. You have conditioned them to want what they have not earned, having transfused the golden goose to the point of being anemic, the hungry mob turns to what is next on the menu, you. You have displaces the middle class with nonproductive Government Bureaucracy, and protected Union Mediocrity. You are destroying the will to achieve by punishing it at every turn. Your reaction is to want more. The more you do, the greater the hole. Ayn Rand could write a book about you. No wait, she already has.

P.S. Stop Pissing on the outer Borough's. We probably out number you 10 to 1, and unlike you we don't fight like girls.

Chief..you don't want to get in a scrap with me. I got a thick skull which has been hit with bats and crowbars..my front teeth ain't real...I moved furniture for 11 years..and work out like a fiend because of a peter pan syndrome that wants to keep the beast young looking. Not like I am good looking by any means. Which..by the way..is another reason you don't want to scrap. I don't care about my looks in terms of being a pretty boy.

When we fight, it will more likely be as a tag team, after we do the intervention, and detox. We need to get you rescued from the Bloomberg Cult that took over the City first. Get you re pottie trained, on a normal Chinese food, Pizza, and Diner diet, drinking beer out of a can again, and we are good to go. I've got some fun scars too. Yeah I work out too. Manhattan has made you too soft. Stop using the elevator, and do the stairs, sissy. That's step one. Start opening your own doors while we are on the subject.

 

[Intense]

That's such a bullshit number it's not even funny. I'm in a high tax bracket in NY, and I pay about 35% of my income in tax - city, state, federal (including SS and Medicare).

Those aren't all the taxes you pay. If you rent or own, you pay property taxes. You also pay sales taxes.

And every thing you buy costs more because the company that makes it pays the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. It pays tax on the energy is uses to make your product, it pays tax on every nut. bolt. desk and computer in their factory and they pay tax on the fuel they burn to take their product to market

Every step, every level of R&D, production, distribution, inventory, point of sale, is taxed, and represented in the shelf price. Each time property changes hands, the Government takes a cut in one form or another. Things move fast or slow depending on need, availability, and price. Raise the price, increase control, slow distribution, making more per item or service sold, but much less in gross. Put things on sale, lower the cost per item, and the cut is less per item, yet it flies off the shelf at breakneck speed, True example of un-perverted distribution of wealth, Value for Value, the only one's losing being the control freaks.

 

[Intense]

Simple minds love simple concepts. Simpletons like Sallow believe that if we raise taxes we'll raise revenue. But it doesn't work that way in the real world.

Since World War II, federal revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't budged much from a bit shy of 19 percent. Regardless of tax rates and what have you, that's the amount the feds have been able to collect. There have been more than 30 major changes in the tax code including personal income tax rates, corporate tax rates, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes, investment tax credits, depreciation schedules, Social Security taxes, etc... Yet during this period, federal government tax collections as a share of GDP have moved within a narrow band of just under 19% of GDP.

Why? When tax rates are raised, taxpayers are encouraged to shift, hide and under report income. Taxpayers divert their effort from pro-growth productive investments to seeking tax shelters, tax havens and tax exempt investments. This behavior tends to dampen economic growth and job creation. Lower taxes increase the incentives to work, produce, save and invest, thereby encouraging capital formation and jobs. Taxpayers have less incentive to shelter and shift income.

That's all horseshit. Tax revenue as a % of GDP are currently at 14%, the lowest they've been since 1950.

That's visible Taxes, not Hidden Taxes and Surcharges, Right? Does your assessment reflect all Government Charges, every step, every level?

 

[mdn2000]

Simple minds love simple concepts. Simpletons like Sallow believe that if we raise taxes we'll raise revenue. But it doesn't work that way in the real world.

Since World War II, federal revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't budged much from a bit shy of 19 percent. Regardless of tax rates and what have you, that's the amount the feds have been able to collect. There have been more than 30 major changes in the tax code including personal income tax rates, corporate tax rates, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes, investment tax credits, depreciation schedules, Social Security taxes, etc... Yet during this period, federal government tax collections as a share of GDP have moved within a narrow band of just under 19% of GDP.

Why? When tax rates are raised, taxpayers are encouraged to shift, hide and under report income. Taxpayers divert their effort from pro-growth productive investments to seeking tax shelters, tax havens and tax exempt investments. This behavior tends to dampen economic growth and job creation. Lower taxes increase the incentives to work, produce, save and invest, thereby encouraging capital formation and jobs. Taxpayers have less incentive to shelter and shift income.

That's all horseshit. Tax revenue as a % of GDP are currently at 14%, the lowest they've been since 1950.

That makes my 15% Social Security tax 1% above the total tax collected by the government. I pay more than the average. Add another 30% I pay to Federal tax, my other 10% I pay to state, unemployment tax, CalMed, Medical, my vehicle tax, sales tax and gas tax, not to mention property tax and I am way above 14%.

I feel bad for the Federal government, they only get 14% of my money and the tooth fairy gets all the rest.

 

[Intense]

Simple minds love simple concepts. Simpletons like Sallow believe that if we raise taxes we'll raise revenue. But it doesn't work that way in the real world.

Since World War II, federal revenue as a percentage of GDP hasn't budged much from a bit shy of 19 percent. Regardless of tax rates and what have you, that's the amount the feds have been able to collect. There have been more than 30 major changes in the tax code including personal income tax rates, corporate tax rates, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes, investment tax credits, depreciation schedules, Social Security taxes, etc... Yet during this period, federal government tax collections as a share of GDP have moved within a narrow band of just under 19% of GDP.

Why? When tax rates are raised, taxpayers are encouraged to shift, hide and under report income. Taxpayers divert their effort from pro-growth productive investments to seeking tax shelters, tax havens and tax exempt investments. This behavior tends to dampen economic growth and job creation. Lower taxes increase the incentives to work, produce, save and invest, thereby encouraging capital formation and jobs. Taxpayers have less incentive to shelter and shift income.

That's all horseshit. Tax revenue as a % of GDP are currently at 14%, the lowest they've been since 1950.

That makes my 15% Social Security tax 1% above the total tax collected by the government. I pay more than the average. Add another 30% I pay to Federal tax, my other 10% I pay to state, unemployment tax, CalMed, Medical, my vehicle tax, sales tax and gas tax, not to mention property tax and I am way above 14%.

I feel bad for the Federal government, they only get 14% of my money and the tooth fairy gets all the rest.

Look at the hidden taxes on Fuel and Phone Service alone, ant that theory is blown to Hell and back.

 

[Sallow]

We are indentured servants, slaves, to the elite, the elite are Republicans and Democrats and their friends in banks, on wall street, in corporations, etc.
.

Well no worries then. You don't like paying taxes..then this country allows you to do what places like North Korea do not.

Move.

 

[Sallow]

I don't get the disconnect between government revenues and taxes. That..is how government funds itself..mainly through taxation. Cut taxes and there were be less money to spend. And we've been spending money like crazy lately; two wars, a brand new agency, a brand new entitlement, bailing out corporate fuck ups and saving our banking, financial and insurance institutions. And this year..more butter. An extention of the Bush taxs cuts..yay!

Drying up the government, as Grover Norquist suggests, is going to make this country look like Guatemala..without the charm.

Krugman's take:

Op-Ed Columnist
The New Voodoo
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: December 30, 2010

Hypocrisy never goes out of style, but, even so, 2010 was something special. For it was the year of budget doubletalk — the year of arsonists posing as firemen, of people railing against deficits while doing everything they could to make those deficits bigger.

And I don’t just mean politicians. Did you notice the U-turn many political commentators and other Serious People made when the Obama-McConnell tax-cut deal was announced? One day deficits were the great evil and we needed fiscal austerity now now now, never mind the state of the economy. The next day $800 billion in debt-financed tax cuts, with the prospect of more to come, was the greatest thing since sliced bread, a triumph of bipartisanship

<-snip-<

How will this all end? I have seen the future, and it’s on Long Island, where I grew up.

Nassau County — the part of Long Island that directly abuts New York City — is one of the wealthiest counties in America and has an unemployment rate well below the national average. So it should be weathering the economic storm better than most places.

But a year ago, in one of the first major Tea Party victories, the county elected a new executive who railed against budget deficits and promised both to cut taxes and to balance the budget. The tax cuts happened; the promised spending cuts didn’t. And now the county is in fiscal crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, the incoming House majority plans to make changes in the “pay-as-you-go” rules — rules that are supposed to enforce responsible budgeting — that effectively implement Mr. Kyl’s principle. Spending increases will have to be offset, but revenue losses from tax cuts won’t. Oh, and revenue increases, even if they come from the elimination of tax loopholes, won’t count either: any spending increase must be offset by spending cuts elsewhere; it can’t be paid for with additional taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As this last Snowstorm in NYC proved..the people that complain the loudest are people that have that tax/finance the goverment disconnect.

Less revenue = Less Services.

Everytime.

Assuming you are correct, where did NYC cut taxes or financing related to snow removal? Let's start there.

Not sure what you are getting out.

There were layoffs at the Sanitation department. Additionally workers lost to attrition (retirement, resigning) weren't replaced.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I should have include this..was the crux of the OpEd:

As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, the incoming House majority plans to make changes in the “pay-as-you-go” rules — rules that are supposed to enforce responsible budgeting — that effectively implement Mr. Kyl’s principle. Spending increases will have to be offset, but revenue losses from tax cuts won’t. Oh, and revenue increases, even if they come from the elimination of tax loopholes, won’t count either: any spending increase must be offset by spending cuts elsewhere; it can’t be paid for with additional taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

Amazing.

How much do you need the government to do for you?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The problem is the parasite outgrowing the host Sallow. You have an appetite that you can't afford. Live within your means. To condition the Robot Masses by giving them entitlements with other peoples money, to get votes. You have conditioned them to want what they have not earned, having transfused the golden goose to the point of being anemic, the hungry mob turns to what is next on the menu, you. You have displaces the middle class with nonproductive Government Bureaucracy, and protected Union Mediocrity. You are destroying the will to achieve by punishing it at every turn. Your reaction is to want more. The more you do, the greater the hole. Ayn Rand could write a book about you. No wait, she already has.

P.S. Stop Pissing on the outer Borough's. We probably out number you 10 to 1, and unlike you we don't fight like girls.

Chief..you don't want to get in a scrap with me. I got a thick skull which has been hit with bats and crowbars..my front teeth ain't real...I moved furniture for 11 years..and work out like a fiend because of a peter pan syndrome that wants to keep the beast young looking. Not like I am good looking by any means. Which..by the way..is another reason you don't want to scrap. I don't care about my looks in terms of being a pretty boy.

When we fight, it will more likely be as a tag team, after we do the intervention, and detox. We need to get you rescued from the Bloomberg Cult that took over the City first. Get you re pottie trained, on a normal Chinese food, Pizza, and Diner diet, drinking beer out of a can again, and we are good to go. I've got some fun scars too. Yeah I work out too. Manhattan has made you too soft. Stop using the elevator, and do the stairs, sissy. That's step one. Start opening your own doors while we are on the subject.

You misunderstand . hes asking you out on a date.

 

[editec]

Taxes suck.

Anarchy sucks even worse.

 

[Intense]

Chief..you don't want to get in a scrap with me. I got a thick skull which has been hit with bats and crowbars..my front teeth ain't real...I moved furniture for 11 years..and work out like a fiend because of a peter pan syndrome that wants to keep the beast young looking. Not like I am good looking by any means. Which..by the way..is another reason you don't want to scrap. I don't care about my looks in terms of being a pretty boy.

When we fight, it will more likely be as a tag team, after we do the intervention, and detox. We need to get you rescued from the Bloomberg Cult that took over the City first. Get you re pottie trained, on a normal Chinese food, Pizza, and Diner diet, drinking beer out of a can again, and we are good to go. I've got some fun scars too. Yeah I work out too. Manhattan has made you too soft. Stop using the elevator, and do the stairs, sissy. That's step one. Start opening your own doors while we are on the subject.

You misunderstand . hes asking you out on a date.

 

[Intense]

Taxes suck.

Anarchy sucks even worse.

What sucks worse than that is when the Anarchist Thugs are receiving Government Pensions or Pay Checks.

 

[Sallow]

The problem is the parasite outgrowing the host Sallow. You have an appetite that you can't afford. Live within your means. To condition the Robot Masses by giving them entitlements with other peoples money, to get votes. You have conditioned them to want what they have not earned, having transfused the golden goose to the point of being anemic, the hungry mob turns to what is next on the menu, you. You have displaces the middle class with nonproductive Government Bureaucracy, and protected Union Mediocrity. You are destroying the will to achieve by punishing it at every turn. Your reaction is to want more. The more you do, the greater the hole. Ayn Rand could write a book about you. No wait, she already has.

P.S. Stop Pissing on the outer Borough's. We probably out number you 10 to 1, and unlike you we don't fight like girls.

Chief..you don't want to get in a scrap with me. I got a thick skull which has been hit with bats and crowbars..my front teeth ain't real...I moved furniture for 11 years..and work out like a fiend because of a peter pan syndrome that wants to keep the beast young looking. Not like I am good looking by any means. Which..by the way..is another reason you don't want to scrap. I don't care about my looks in terms of being a pretty boy.

When we fight, it will more likely be as a tag team, after we do the intervention, and detox. We need to get you rescued from the Bloomberg Cult that took over the City first. Get you re pottie trained, on a normal Chinese food, Pizza, and Diner diet, drinking beer out of a can again, and we are good to go. I've got some fun scars too. Yeah I work out too. Manhattan has made you too soft. Stop using the elevator, and do the stairs, sissy. That's step one. Start opening your own doors while we are on the subject.

What is it with you guys and "potty" training. People on the right seem to be really into toilet humor. Is it the anal retentive thing or what?

Why can't you just say something like "I'm a tough old bird and look forward to a good scrap now and again..."

Crap gives me the willies. Only use it when retorting to a similar jibe by a Conservative on the boards.

 

[Intense]

Chief..you don't want to get in a scrap with me. I got a thick skull which has been hit with bats and crowbars..my front teeth ain't real...I moved furniture for 11 years..and work out like a fiend because of a peter pan syndrome that wants to keep the beast young looking. Not like I am good looking by any means. Which..by the way..is another reason you don't want to scrap. I don't care about my looks in terms of being a pretty boy.

When we fight, it will more likely be as a tag team, after we do the intervention, and detox. We need to get you rescued from the Bloomberg Cult that took over the City first. Get you re pottie trained, on a normal Chinese food, Pizza, and Diner diet, drinking beer out of a can again, and we are good to go. I've got some fun scars too. Yeah I work out too. Manhattan has made you too soft. Stop using the elevator, and do the stairs, sissy. That's step one. Start opening your own doors while we are on the subject.

What is it with you guys and "potty" training. People on the right seem to be really into toilet humor. Is it the anal retentive thing or what?

Why can't you just say something like "I'm a tough old bird and look forward to a good scrap now and again..."

Crap gives me the willies. Only use it when retorting to a similar jibe by a Conservative on the boards.

You need to suck it up, get out there, and start shoveling some snow. No groveling, no whining.

 

[snjmom]

You need to suck it up, get out there, and start shoveling some snow. No groveling, no whining.

? Is this a move to lower the SS roles in Manhattan?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't get the disconnect between government revenues and taxes. That..is how government funds itself..mainly through taxation. Cut taxes and there were be less money to spend. And we've been spending money like crazy lately; two wars, a brand new agency, a brand new entitlement, bailing out corporate fuck ups and saving our banking, financial and insurance institutions. And this year..more butter. An extention of the Bush taxs cuts..yay!

Drying up the government, as Grover Norquist suggests, is going to make this country look like Guatemala..without the charm.

Krugman's take:

Op-Ed Columnist
The New Voodoo
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: December 30, 2010

Hypocrisy never goes out of style, but, even so, 2010 was something special. For it was the year of budget doubletalk — the year of arsonists posing as firemen, of people railing against deficits while doing everything they could to make those deficits bigger.

And I don’t just mean politicians. Did you notice the U-turn many political commentators and other Serious People made when the Obama-McConnell tax-cut deal was announced? One day deficits were the great evil and we needed fiscal austerity now now now, never mind the state of the economy. The next day $800 billion in debt-financed tax cuts, with the prospect of more to come, was the greatest thing since sliced bread, a triumph of bipartisanship

<-snip-<

How will this all end? I have seen the future, and it’s on Long Island, where I grew up.

Nassau County — the part of Long Island that directly abuts New York City — is one of the wealthiest counties in America and has an unemployment rate well below the national average. So it should be weathering the economic storm better than most places.

But a year ago, in one of the first major Tea Party victories, the county elected a new executive who railed against budget deficits and promised both to cut taxes and to balance the budget. The tax cuts happened; the promised spending cuts didn’t. And now the county is in fiscal crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, the incoming House majority plans to make changes in the “pay-as-you-go” rules — rules that are supposed to enforce responsible budgeting — that effectively implement Mr. Kyl’s principle. Spending increases will have to be offset, but revenue losses from tax cuts won’t. Oh, and revenue increases, even if they come from the elimination of tax loopholes, won’t count either: any spending increase must be offset by spending cuts elsewhere; it can’t be paid for with additional taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31krugman.html?_r=1&hp

As this last Snowstorm in NYC proved..the people that complain the loudest are people that have that tax/finance the goverment disconnect.

Less revenue = Less Services.

Everytime.

I have an idea. We can start the saving by cutting salaries for politicians. They should be compensated only for reasonable expenses, and given a wage that is no higher than the poverty level of their community. They only way they get a raise is if everyone they work for gets the same raise first.

See, we can cut revenue without cutting services. There are other things that can be cut first.