The myths of high cost healthcare

[emilynghiem]

Dear EB no need to go to China, party and govt leaders here are bought out easily.
they are just too busy pointing the finger at each other to hold their own parties accountable. otherwise if we all decided to go after each instance, we'd expose them all.

as for BB I am actually glad to see you still hve faith in govt
I hope this means you actually take responsibility for your support
and you regularly contact, push and check things through your reps.

if you let them run the show without chekcing what they are doing with tax money
then you are part of the problem of why corrupt things happen and no one corrects it.

so it's good to have that faith, just please i urge you to take responsibility for it.
we need more ppl like you, or else govt gets abused just like anything else
(if you don't believe me, look up legal abuse and judicial abuse and see what's going on)

Frankly, I trust fewer people than I have fingers on one hand, but I trust the Government more than the Fortune 500 any day of the week. The Government will not put an unsafe product on the market simply to make a profit.

too stupid!!! like government people are less likely to be bought off than corporate people!!! Dont you read about the Chinese government bureaucrats who are executed for taking bribes and thus endangering the entire country!!

Without libturd regulators a company must have the safest best cheapest products in the entire world or go bankrupt! With libturd regulators everyone assumes things are safe because the government guarantees it!!

Under capitalism millions of consumers are the regulators, under liberalism a few libturd bureaucrats are the regulators!!

Over your head???

the real question for liberals is, "who will regulate the regulators"???

we the people. but we need to work together EB,
if we team up and go after corruption/abuse to be corrected
we could pressure govt to answer. but if we spin our wheels
arguing amongst ourselves the foxes are cleaning out the henhouse
while we are not paying attention. we need to team up by party or in pairs
and focus where libs and cons, occupy and tea party, agree something stinks

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

we need to team up by party or in pairs
and focus where libs and cons, occupy and tea party, agree something stinks

dear opposite philosophies don't agree; that is why they are opposites. THe wisdom of the ages is embodied in the voting booth where you must choose bewteen freedom and government.

You need to decide what side you are on and why. Lets us know when you have grown up.

 

[Beachboy]

sadly you're a lying liberal soviet idiot. SS steals 15% of your lifetime income. In a private account 15% would yield $1.4 million at retirement not the dog food money you get from SS!!

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow, so very very slow!! MSSB is where liberals come to die! Do you have any liberal friends who might want to come here to experiene what you just did??? Send them over!!

As usual not a fact based link to support a word you say. But, I have one...........

I did not join this website to research for the ignorant. Here is a graph of Social Security Administrative costs which are less than 1% of their total cost. http://http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html Private Insurance companies run 12-17%. In the future please Google the facts before posting. Thank you.

And, by the way I am not a liberal, I am an independant. You use the word "liberal" like it is a dirty word. It is no more dirty than "conservative."
​

dear do you have the IQ to figure out what an average American would retire with if he invested 15% of his lifetime income in a private account???

Don't patronize me with "Dear." Where were you in 2008 when the markets crashed? Private sector investments risk loss, Social Security does not.

However, I would be willing to let you sign a waiver that if your investments tanked, you would have to go without any resources from the government.

Again, no fact links to verify a word you say. Mere righty blather. The sooner we get your kind into a grave, the sooner the rest of us can enjoy progress!

 

[rdean]

This is in CANADA??

You really do have terrible insurance.

My insurance pays most of our bills with low or no co-pays.

As mentioned, your insurance company must pay $.80 of every dollar to patient care. If they don't, they must refund it. You might want to look into that.

Luddly loves insurance companies. And they love him.

It's cons that appear to love insurance companies ... they're against single payer.

I suspect most don't even have health care. Look at their teeth.

They just hate Obama.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This is in CANADA??

You really do have terrible insurance.

My insurance pays most of our bills with low or no co-pays.

As mentioned, your insurance company must pay $.80 of every dollar to patient care. If they don't, they must refund it. You might want to look into that.

Luddly loves insurance companies. And they love him.

It's cons that appear to love insurance companies ... they're against single payer.

cons are not communist so yes against single payer. Insurance companies would reduce price and raise quality just as computer companies do if liberals had not made competition illegal in health insurance.

Liberals lack the IQ to understand simple concepts

Imagine someone who jogs for fun and someone who races in life and death competition? Who would be a faster runner? Now you understand competion and how it makes us better. Not so hard was it?

 

[dblack]

This is in CANADA??

You really do have terrible insurance.

My insurance pays most of our bills with low or no co-pays.

As mentioned, your insurance company must pay $.80 of every dollar to patient care. If they don't, they must refund it. You might want to look into that.

Luddly loves insurance companies. And they love him.

It's cons that appear to love insurance companies ... they're against single payer.

Single payer would create one insurance company. Would that be better than the cartel we have now? Hard to say. With the corporate sellouts populating Congress, "single-payer" would almost certainly be 'outsourced' to a corporate provider anyway, so - likely things would be worse.

In any case, it wasn't the cons that squashed single payer. PPACA received exactly one Republican vote. The Democrats could have passed anything they wanted. They didn't want single payer. They wanted the corporatist cluster-fuck we got. They sold us out, and you continue to support them.

 

[Underhill]

The reality is our whole country is corrupt. The idea that any political party is better than the other is silly. They all are guilty.

But the notion that the corporate world is any better is laughable. Who do you think is buying off the politicians?

The reality is our country is headed for some serious problems unless the people wake up to these facts. And as long as people are kept busy talking about libturds and repukes, the problem will never be resolved. They both suck ass and I think a lot of the party wrangling is designed to take our focus off the real problems.

I marginally have picked democrats over republicans because of social issues. But in the big picture, both sides need to be taken to the cleaners. But it would take a lot, since those in power have a great deal of sway with our media and our government.

I suspect if McCain had won the election the health care bill would have been very similar to what we have now. Remember, he was promising a health care bill too. And he would have been talking to the same insurance companies.

 

[dblack]

But the notion that the corporate world is any better is laughable. Who do you think is buying off the politicians?

The notion that it's a choice between giving up our freedom to corporations or giving up our freedom to government is a false dilemma. And it's killing us.

The reality is our country is headed for some serious problems unless the people wake up to these facts. And as long as people are kept busy talking about libturds and repukes, the problem will never be resolved. They both suck ass and I think a lot of the party wrangling is designed to take our focus off the real problems.

I marginally have picked democrats over republicans because of social issues. But in the big picture, both sides need to be taken to the cleaners. But it would take a lot, since those in power have a great deal of sway with our media and our government.

I suspect if McCain had won the election the health care bill would have been very similar to what we have now. Remember, he was promising a health care bill too. And he would have been talking to the same insurance companies.

Yep.

 

[Underhill]

But the notion that the corporate world is any better is laughable. Who do you think is buying off the politicians?

The notion that it's a choice between giving up our freedom to corporations or giving up our freedom to government is a false dilemma. And it's killing us.

Perhaps in some things. In healthcare, I don't think there is an alternative. I know you disagree, and I suspect neither of us will change our minds.

The bigger problem right now is, there is no choice. Government and corporate interest are so intertwined...

I think this is much of the reason so many Americans distrust the government, whether they realize it or not. Other countries may have some issues, but talking to Canadians, and looking at their government, I just don't see the same issues.

 

[dblack]

The bigger problem right now is, there is no choice. Government and corporate interest are so intertwined...

Exactly. But how do so many of those who get this advocate policy that deepens the collusion?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

But the notion that the corporate world is any better is laughable. Who do you think is buying off the politicians?

dear, in a Republican world you don't buy off politicians because it would be a waste of money, they don't have any power!!! In a libturd world you do as a matter of course because stuff like Obamacare is 100% controlled by politicians.

In a Republican world a corporation produces the best products in the world at the lowest price or they go bankrupt!! Thats it, period!!!!

Its inconceivable to Republicans that liberals lack the IQ to understand that!! How can our country be saved if liberals are allowed to vote? Its 100% anti-democratic to allow it unless democracy is supposed to be rule by the stupid!!

 

[Underhill]

The bigger problem right now is, there is no choice. Government and corporate interest are so intertwined...

Exactly. But how do so many of those who get this advocate policy that deepens the collusion?

What difference does it make? I paid through the nose before, I'll pay through the nose now. But at least now more people will be covered.

It boils down to empathy. I was the guy with 3 kids who went without insurance for 8+ years. It sucked. And I won't forget it.

Most of the guys I work with are republicans. And almost to a man, none of them have been in that position. Every one that I have talked to have worked here (a good company to work for) for decades right out of college. Their idea of hardship was when the company quit letting them have a liquid lunch.

In contrast my life involves a combination of some poor decisions and piss poor luck that left me with low paying shit jobs for the first 10 years of my adult life. I always worked, probably harder than most of these guys much of the time. But I never made any money.

Now that I am in their club, they look at me like I am nuts because I empathize with those in my former situation. I suspect that same attitude is prevalent among republicans. Maybe not all, but it certainly is among those I have talked to.

 

[dblack]

The bigger problem right now is, there is no choice. Government and corporate interest are so intertwined...

Exactly. But how do so many of those who get this advocate policy that deepens the collusion?

What difference does it make? I paid through the nose before, I'll pay through the nose now. But at least now more people will be covered.

It boils down to empathy. I was the guy with 3 kids who went without insurance for 8+ years. It sucked. And I won't forget it.

The difference is, it worsens the problem you were complaining about (corporate/government collusion) without doing anything to address the core problem (inflated health care prices). Empathy is crucial. But misguided empathy is dangerous when it comes to state policy.

Most of the guys I work with are republicans. And almost to a man, none of them have been in that position. Every one that I have talked to have worked here (a good company to work for) for decades right out of college. Their idea of hardship was when the company quit letting them have a liquid lunch.

In contrast my life involves a combination of some poor decisions and piss poor luck that left me with low paying shit jobs for the first 10 years of my adult life. I always worked, probably harder than most of these guys much of the time. But I never made any money.

Now that I am in their club, they look at me like I am nuts because I empathize with those in my former situation. I suspect that same attitude is prevalent among republicans. Maybe not all, but it certainly is among those I have talked to.

Not sure what Republicans really think. But my story is remarkably similar to yours (raised my two sons on my own - much of it without insurance). What I saw was a frustrating situation where ordinary, routine health care was too expensive for ordinary people. That's not sustainable - regardless of insurance coverage.

Health insurance is not health care. Conflating the two is a mistake and keeps most of the reform effort mired in confusion - confusion that the corporatists are only too happy to take advantage of.

 

[Dragonlady]

dear, in a Republican world you don't buy off politicians because it would be a waste of money, they don't have any power!!! In a libturd world you do as a matter of course because stuff like Obamacare is 100% controlled by politicians.

In a Republican world a corporation produces the best products in the world at the lowest price or they go bankrupt!! Thats it, period!!!!

Its inconceivable to Republicans that liberals lack the IQ to understand that!! How can our country be saved if liberals are allowed to vote? Its 100% anti-democratic to allow it unless democracy is supposed to be rule by the stupid!!

In a Republican world, Monsanto can sue all of the farmers who don't deal with them into bankruptcy and poison the world because they have enough money to do that.

It is inconceivable to Republicans that corporations will do evil in order to make profits they didn't earn.

In a Republican world, he who is large enough to price the competition out of business, gets a monopoly.

It is inconceivable for Eddie to understand that corporations have no morals and no ethics, and that the public needs to be protected from them. Because Monsanto has been convicted of poisioning people.

It is 100% stupid to think that corporations will do the right thing, but that's Eddie for you.

 

[dblack]

It is inconceivable for Eddie to understand that corporations have no morals and no ethics, and that the public needs to be protected from them. Because Monsanto has been convicted of poisioning people.

It is 100% stupid to think that corporations will do the right thing, but that's Eddie for you.

Ed's out to lunch. But are you willing to consider your own blind spots? Do you really expect government that is utterly and completely beholden to corporate interests to protect you from them?? The only way to strike at excessive corporate power is to remove the foundations of that power - the special privilege and protection they receive from the state in the form of ill-conceived regulation and policy. The sheer fact that the insurance industry has enough influence to pass a law requiring us to buy their product blows my mind. Even though I could truthfully say "I saw it coming", I never believed it would happen in my lifetime. That it has, and that so many so-called liberals are cheering it, is depressing as hell.

 

[lynn63]

The government passed a law that exempted Monsanto from any liability claims so now they are untouchable.

 

[Underhill]

Exactly. But how do so many of those who get this advocate policy that deepens the collusion?

What difference does it make? I paid through the nose before, I'll pay through the nose now. But at least now more people will be covered.

It boils down to empathy. I was the guy with 3 kids who went without insurance for 8+ years. It sucked. And I won't forget it.

The difference is, it worsens the problem you were complaining about (corporate/government collusion) without doing anything to address the core problem (inflated health care prices). Empathy is crucial. But misguided empathy is dangerous when it comes to state policy.

I might agree with you except for one small problem. It doesn't matter.

As I pointed out, support Obama, you get Obamacare. Support McCain, you most likely get the same thing.

Acting as though there is another option is delusional. The only real difference would be if McCain were the guy in charge, republicans would be defending the plan and most democrats would be fighting it as the worst thing since the Holocaust.

Most of the guys I work with are republicans. And almost to a man, none of them have been in that position. Every one that I have talked to have worked here (a good company to work for) for decades right out of college. Their idea of hardship was when the company quit letting them have a liquid lunch.

In contrast my life involves a combination of some poor decisions and piss poor luck that left me with low paying shit jobs for the first 10 years of my adult life. I always worked, probably harder than most of these guys much of the time. But I never made any money.

Now that I am in their club, they look at me like I am nuts because I empathize with those in my former situation. I suspect that same attitude is prevalent among republicans. Maybe not all, but it certainly is among those I have talked to.

Not sure what Republicans really think. But my story is remarkably similar to yours (raised my two sons on my own - much of it without insurance). What I saw was a frustrating situation where ordinary, routine health care was too expensive for ordinary people. That's not sustainable - regardless of insurance coverage.

Health insurance is not health care. Conflating the two is a mistake and keeps most of the reform effort mired in confusion - confusion that the corporatists are only too happy to take advantage of.

Yep, you keep saying that. But I don't see any examples world wide of a working health care system that doesn't involve insurance in one form or another.

 

[dblack]

I might agree with you except for one small problem. It doesn't matter.

As I pointed out, support Obama, you get Obamacare. Support McCain, you most likely get the same thing.

Acting as though there is another option is delusional. The only real difference would be if McCain were the guy in charge, republicans would be defending the plan and most democrats would be fighting it as the worst thing since the Holocaust.

That's not a 'small problem', it's the whole enchilada. But the delusion is in assuming we must accept it. We won't get either of the major parties to change, or encourage a third to challenge them, until we quit supporting them. As long as they can count on our votes no matter what kind of manure they shovel our way, they'll continue along the same path.

Health insurance is not health care. Conflating the two is a mistake and keeps most of the reform effort mired in confusion - confusion that the corporatists are only too happy to take advantage of.

Yep, you keep saying that. But I don't see any examples world wide of a working health care system that doesn't involve insurance in one form or another.

I'm not looking to create a health care 'system'. How other individuals (here, or in other countries) finance their health care is not my concern*. Personally, I happen to think insurance makes sense for covering catastrophic illness, but it's a waste of money to pay to be 'covered' for things you could afford to pay for out of pocket. It's simply unnecessary overhead. The problem is that decades of bad regulatory and tax policies have driven prices beyond reason. Fixing that should be the first priority in any real reform effort. With PPACA, it's an afterthought at best, if, indeed, it doesn't make the problem even worse

.

*To clarify, I do care about people who can't afford needed health care. But I consider the issue of social safety nets for the poor to be an entirely different (though obviously related) problem from fixing the health care market.

 

[Underhill]

I might agree with you except for one small problem. It doesn't matter.

As I pointed out, support Obama, you get Obamacare. Support McCain, you most likely get the same thing.

Acting as though there is another option is delusional. The only real difference would be if McCain were the guy in charge, republicans would be defending the plan and most democrats would be fighting it as the worst thing since the Holocaust.

That's not a 'small problem', it's the whole enchilada. But the delusion is in assuming we must accept it. We won't get either of the major parties to change, or encourage a third to challenge them, until we quit supporting them. As long as they can count on our votes no matter what kind of manure they shovel our way, they'll continue along the same path.

I've advocated for the same many times in many places. But as things stand now, it just isn't going to happen. Americans are more partisan than ever since the civil war. The number of people who are willing to concede any problems within their own party are very small.

It's often surreal when I read post from people like EdwardBaiamonte talking about the utopia that is the republican or democratic parties. It's laughable.

Health insurance is not health care. Conflating the two is a mistake and keeps most of the reform effort mired in confusion - confusion that the corporatists are only too happy to take advantage of.

Yep, you keep saying that. But I don't see any examples world wide of a working health care system that doesn't involve insurance in one form or another.

I'm not looking to create a health care 'system'. How other individuals (here, or in other countries) finance their health care is not my concern*. Personally, I happen to think insurance makes sense for covering catastrophic illness, but it's a waste of money to pay to be 'covered' for things you could afford to pay for out of pocket. It's simply unnecessary overhead. The problem is that decades of bad regulatory and tax policies have driven prices beyond reason. Fixing that should be the first priority in any real reform effort. With PPACA, it's an afterthought at best, if, indeed, it doesn't make the problem even worse.

Well, I struggle to see it. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying.

You are essentially advocating that we should get rid of all regulation of the insurance industry, get rid of all government health care, destroy the entire bureaucracy and all the prices will fall back to a reasonable level and all will be well.

I just don't see it ever happening. Under anyone. It's an anarchist pipe dream.

*To clarify, I do care about people who can't afford needed health care. But I consider the issue of social safety nets for the poor to be an entirely different (though obviously related) problem from fixing the health care market.

I agree. And I see that as one of the fallacies of Obamacare. It was never about fixing the problems in the health care market. That much is clear. About the only thing it does is cover more people who are currently at the fringes.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

In a Republican world, he who is large enough to price the competition out of business, gets a monopoly.

too stupid given that anti-trust laws have long made monopolies illegal and said anti trust laws are supported by both parties.

How insane to hate corporations when we all work for them
for our daily bread, and consume their products with what they pay us to have be the richest people in human history!!

Do you hate your children and parents too? Maybe Marx didn't brainwash you to hate your own children!!