The More Things Change.....

[PoliticalChic]

....the more they remain the same.





1. "Russia is in "operational control" of Crimea as soldiers surround Ukrainian troops and seize a ferry port.

2. Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.

3. Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation" and dismissed threats of sanctions and boycotts."
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine





“History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
― Mark Twain

"...After my election, I have more flexibility,” he tells outgoing Russian president Dmitry Medvedev...."
- Obama





4. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, Ambassador William Bullitt warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.'

He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590


5. FDR replied:
"Bill, I don't dispute your facts, they are accurate, I don't dispute the logic of your reasoning. I have just had a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of a man. Harry says he's not and that he doesn't want anything in the world but security for his country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace."
William C. Bullitt, "How We Won The War and Lost The Peace," Life Magazine, August 30, 1948, p. 94

 

[1776]

Obama...."uh where is that reset button, I've lost it!!!!!!"

 

[SAYIT]

....the more they remain the same.

1. "Russia is in "operational control" of Crimea as soldiers surround Ukrainian troops and seize a ferry port.

2. Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.

3. Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation" and dismissed threats of sanctions and boycotts."
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine

I'm far more intrigued by the similarity between Putin's move to "protect" Russians living in Ukraine and Hitler's excuse for occupying Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia, 1938).

 

[NYcarbineer]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

 

[tinydancer]

....the more they remain the same.

1. "Russia is in "operational control" of Crimea as soldiers surround Ukrainian troops and seize a ferry port.

2. Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.

3. Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation" and dismissed threats of sanctions and boycotts."
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine

I'm far more intrigued by the similarity between Putin's move to "protect" Russians living in Ukraine and Hitler's excuse for occupying Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia, 1938).

Crimea was a "gift" to Ukraine from Krushchev in the 50's. Demographics have the ethnic Russian population at 60% plus. And they are seriously pro Russian and anti the Kiev coup and the new government.

Their Parliament has set up a referendum for a stronger autonomy for some time in May.

Oh and citizenry aside, there's the huge naval base for Russia's Black Sea Fleet. No way on the planet is Russia going to let that fall into Kiev's hands.

 

[tinydancer]

....the more they remain the same.





1. "Russia is in "operational control" of Crimea as soldiers surround Ukrainian troops and seize a ferry port.

2. Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.

3. Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation" and dismissed threats of sanctions and boycotts."
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine





“History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
― Mark Twain

"...After my election, I have more flexibility,” he tells outgoing Russian president Dmitry Medvedev...."
- Obama





4. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, Ambassador William Bullitt warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.'

He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590


5. FDR replied:
"Bill, I don't dispute your facts, they are accurate, I don't dispute the logic of your reasoning. I have just had a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of a man. Harry says he's not and that he doesn't want anything in the world but security for his country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace."
William C. Bullitt, "How We Won The War and Lost The Peace," Life Magazine, August 30, 1948, p. 94




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1fVQGESUTo

I detest the politics of appeasement but I have to say in this situation with the coup in Kiev we're really looking at a different situation.

I am no Putin fan. But if you really get a grip on the individuals who are now in charge of Ukraine and how heavily anti Russian they are, it makes sense that Putin moved in to protect the citizenry of Crimea and of course the naval base.

The new crew that has been granted 6 cabinet positions in the transitional government including being in charge of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is rabidly "pro ethnic Ukrainian".

I put this up in another thread.

****************************************************************
You have your key words too. "ethnic Ukrainians" "nationalization" "Ukrainaphobia to be criminalized"
and of course the seizing of private farmland with the classic catch phrase "state owned". Oh and duly noted. Nuclear weaponry. Not energy. Weaponry.

Here's some of the platform. Rest at link.

Lustration of state authority: publication of lists of all Soviet KGB agents that served or continue to serve in Ukraine, dismissal of such people as well as members of the former Communist Party of the Soviet Union from state leadership positions, replace them with graduates of the Ukrainian universities

Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution

Renunciation of the 2010 Kharkiv agreements

Impeachment of President Viktor Yanukovych

Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban

Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)

Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products

Nationalization of major enterprises, greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land

Ban on the import of the food products that are also produced inside Ukraine and import only exotic food that is not domestically grown

The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates

Proportional representation on executive bodies of ethnic Ukrainians, on the one hand, and national minorities, on the other

Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children

Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions

Ordained persons should have no right to be elected to state authorities or local self-government authorities

Abolition of Crimean autonomy

Farmlands are to be state-owned and given to farmers in hereditary use

Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry



Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/quote]

 

[tinydancer]

So right in this party platform they have "Abolition of Crimean autonomy". Well right there you bet the Russians were welcomed with open arms.

And this. Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

If I was of Russian origin living in Crimea, I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy with this party platform.

 

[Old Rocks]

Were I a Ukranian living in the Ukraine, I would not have any warm and fuzzy feelings toward the Russians. And Svoboda does not represent all of the Ukranians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

The party leader Tyahnybok's candidacy in the 2010 presidential election did not build on the 2009 Ternopil success.[16] Tyahnybok received 1.43% of the vote.[54] Most of his votes he gained in Lviv oblast, Ternopil oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk oblast accounted to 5% of the vote.[55] In the second round, Tyahnybok did not endorse a candidate. He did present a list of some 20 demands for second round candidate Yulia Tymoshenko had to fulfil first before gaining his endorsement - which included publicizing alleged secret deals Tymoshenko had with Vladimir Putin and ridding herself of what he called Ukraine-haters in her close circles.[56]
During the 2010 Ukrainian local elections the party won between 20-30% of the votes in Eastern Galicia, where it became one of the main forces in local government.[28] The 2009 provincial elections in Ternopil had previously been the greatest success of the Svoboda party, when it won 34.4 per cent of votes cast.[29] During the 2010 Ukrainian local elections, Svoboda surpassed this figure, accounting for 5.2% of the vote nationwide.[57] Analysts explained Svoboda’s victory in Galicia during the 2010 elections as a result of the policies of the Azarov Government, who were seen as too pro-Russian by the electorate.[57][58][59] According to Andreas Umland, Senior Lecturer in Political Science at the National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy,[60] Svoboda's increasing exposure in the Ukrainian media has contributed to its recent successes.[59]
Between 2004 and 2010, party membership increased threefold to 15,000 members[2] (traditionally party membership is low in Ukraine[61][62][63]).
As of 2011, Svoboda has factions in eight of Ukraine's 25 regional councils, and in three of those Svoboda is the biggest faction.[64] Umland and novelist Andrey Kurkov have accused the Party of Regions of giving "unofficial support" to Svoboda to make their main opponent, BYuT, weaker.[59][65] Reportedly, the members and supporters of Svoboda are predominantly young people.[2]
Several clergymen of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are Svoboda members and have stood for election as Svoboda chosen candidates.[66] According to the party, they were chosen on election lists "to counterbalance opponents who include “Moscow priests” in their election lists and have aspirations to build the “Russian World” in Ukraine".[66] Per the party's desire to separate the clergy from politics, all churchmen will be recalled if a draft Constitution of Ukraine proposed by the party is approved.[66]

Looks to me like you are supporting the Russians, period.

 

[1776]

Uh.....nobody was threatening "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine, that is a fucking lie by Putin to justify his ILLEGAL invasion of a sovereign nation.

I didn't realize Russia has a say in internal politics of their neighbors....so if they don't like what goes on Finland, Japan, Estonia, Georgia, Latvia, etc....they can just invade them with people like you supporting them here.

So right in this party platform they have "Abolition of Crimean autonomy". Well right there you bet the Russians were welcomed with open arms.

And this. Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

If I was of Russian origin living in Crimea, I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy with this party platform.

 

[tinydancer]

Were I a Ukranian living in the Ukraine, I would not have any warm and fuzzy feelings toward the Russians. And Svoboda does not represent all of the Ukranians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

The party leader Tyahnybok's candidacy in the 2010 presidential election did not build on the 2009 Ternopil success.[16] Tyahnybok received 1.43% of the vote.[54] Most of his votes he gained in Lviv oblast, Ternopil oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk oblast accounted to 5% of the vote.[55] In the second round, Tyahnybok did not endorse a candidate. He did present a list of some 20 demands for second round candidate Yulia Tymoshenko had to fulfil first before gaining his endorsement - which included publicizing alleged secret deals Tymoshenko had with Vladimir Putin and ridding herself of what he called Ukraine-haters in her close circles.[56]
During the 2010 Ukrainian local elections the party won between 20-30% of the votes in Eastern Galicia, where it became one of the main forces in local government.[28] The 2009 provincial elections in Ternopil had previously been the greatest success of the Svoboda party, when it won 34.4 per cent of votes cast.[29] During the 2010 Ukrainian local elections, Svoboda surpassed this figure, accounting for 5.2% of the vote nationwide.[57] Analysts explained Svoboda’s victory in Galicia during the 2010 elections as a result of the policies of the Azarov Government, who were seen as too pro-Russian by the electorate.[57][58][59] According to Andreas Umland, Senior Lecturer in Political Science at the National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy,[60] Svoboda's increasing exposure in the Ukrainian media has contributed to its recent successes.[59]
Between 2004 and 2010, party membership increased threefold to 15,000 members[2] (traditionally party membership is low in Ukraine[61][62][63]).
As of 2011, Svoboda has factions in eight of Ukraine's 25 regional councils, and in three of those Svoboda is the biggest faction.[64] Umland and novelist Andrey Kurkov have accused the Party of Regions of giving "unofficial support" to Svoboda to make their main opponent, BYuT, weaker.[59][65] Reportedly, the members and supporters of Svoboda are predominantly young people.[2]
Several clergymen of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are Svoboda members and have stood for election as Svoboda chosen candidates.[66] According to the party, they were chosen on election lists "to counterbalance opponents who include “Moscow priests” in their election lists and have aspirations to build the “Russian World” in Ukraine".[66] Per the party's desire to separate the clergy from politics, all churchmen will be recalled if a draft Constitution of Ukraine proposed by the party is approved.[66]

Looks to me like you are supporting the Russians, period.

I know damn well this party doesn't represent all Ukrainians, but because of their support in the coup they scored 6 key cabinet positions in the transitional government.

Including the Armed Forces. And they are without a doubt ultra ultra radical right wing.

AND just because I say I "understand" Putin's moves doesn't mean I'm "backing" the Russians but you better understand that Crimea is already autonomous.

They are pro Russian. And they are going for even more autonomy from the Ukraine.

And the new transitional government will not be trusted by the Crimeans.

BBC. Article before the protests began. It's worth the read.

But while the party's radical past can be papered over, it cannot be erased. Its name until 2004 was the "Social-National Party" and it maintains informal links to another group, the Patriots of Ukraine, regarded by some as proto-fascist.

In 2004, Tyahnybok was kicked out of former President Viktor Yushchenko's parliamentary faction for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" - using two highly insulting words to describe Russians and Jews - and emphasising that Ukrainians had in the past fought this threat with arms.



Other Svoboda members have also courted controversy. Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn, a parliamentary deputy considered one of the party's ideologues, liberally quotes from former Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, along with other National-Socialist leaders.

BBC News - Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists

Special.

 

[tinydancer]

Uh.....nobody was threatening "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine, that is a fucking lie by Putin to justify his ILLEGAL invasion of a sovereign nation.

I didn't realize Russia has a say in internal politics of their neighbors....so if they don't like what goes on Finland, Japan, Estonia, Georgia, Latvia, etc....they can just invade them with people like you supporting them here.

So right in this party platform they have "Abolition of Crimean autonomy". Well right there you bet the Russians were welcomed with open arms.

And this. Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

If I was of Russian origin living in Crimea, I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy with this party platform.

Ethnic Russians who welcomed Putin's troops. Go google.

And there are Russian citizens on that naval base that Putin is obligated to protect.

Let's try a different scenario so maybe you can understand Russia's movements in this.

America has only one military base in the middle east in Qatar. It's huge. It's of vital importance to your country.

Let's say a violent coup takes place in Qatar and the government is overthrown. You have personnel there now in potential danger.

I wouldn't have one problem with America getting to Qatar as quickly as possible to protect her citizens.

Would you stand aside and not protect your citizens?

 

[Avatar4321]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

No one wants a war with Russia. Which is exactly why we are so pissed at Obama for being weak.

If Obama wasnt undermining US credibility and respect with his foreign policy, Russia wouldn't be so bold.

 

[FA_Q2]

Uh.....nobody was threatening "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine, that is a fucking lie by Putin to justify his ILLEGAL invasion of a sovereign nation.

I didn't realize Russia has a say in internal politics of their neighbors....so if they don't like what goes on Finland, Japan, Estonia, Georgia, Latvia, etc....they can just invade them with people like you supporting them here.

So right in this party platform they have "Abolition of Crimean autonomy". Well right there you bet the Russians were welcomed with open arms.

And this. Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

If I was of Russian origin living in Crimea, I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy with this party platform.

I know right. By what fucking right do the Russians think that they should have be allowed to influence other nation internal politics. Its not like the US would ever do something so damn brazen. Never.....

That is somewhat the problem with the way the US acts - we don't like it at all when other nations do something even remotely similar. Of course Russia is not the same - they don't have the same concept of national sovereignty or rights that the US does but it does make you take a long look at our current and past international policy. In many places, it is not that far off from this.

 

[candycorn]

Crimea river. Conservative blood lust is at an all time high.
"Since Americans aren't dying by the dozens our foreign policy is anemic." Seems to be their policy.

 

[francoHFW]

Crimea river LOL...remain calm and let the adults handle this...ie the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. Fox/Rushbots, take a chill pill and CHANGE THE CHANNEL...read the NYT and get a grip...

 

[ScienceRocks]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

The conservatives(losertarians) are bi-polar and will waver back and forth to be exactly opposite of that ****** in the oval office. You can count on it.

 

[ScienceRocks]

And I say that as someone that disagrees with a large part of his social policy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

"The United States and Britain “reaffirmed” their commitment to protect Ukraine’s borders in exchange for the nation giving up its nuclear weapons in a little-known agreement known as the “Budapest Memorandum signed by former President Bill Clinton in 1994."
....Reaffirming a “commitment” to Ukraine’s borders and being legally required to go to war are two very different ideas."
Fact Check: Could a Little-Known International Agreement With Ukraine Force U.S., Britain Into War With Russia? | TheBlaze.com



Now....since the term "war" doesn't appear in the OP.....

....could you explain yourself?

 

[NYcarbineer]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

No one wants a war with Russia. Which is exactly why we are so pissed at Obama for being weak.

If Obama wasnt undermining US credibility and respect with his foreign policy, Russia wouldn't be so bold.

The 'theory' that Russia would not be taking the action they are taking, if Romney were president,

is an absurdity that only those in the throes of Obama derangement syndrome are susceptible to.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So the cons want a war with Russia?

I've decided we must dub this latest flare up of conservative bellicosity

'the Charge of the Right Brigade'.

...and yes you will win a dandy prize for explaining the brilliance of that pun.

go!!!

"The United States and Britain “reaffirmed” their commitment to protect Ukraine’s borders in exchange for the nation giving up its nuclear weapons in a little-known agreement known as the “Budapest Memorandum signed by former President Bill Clinton in 1994."
....Reaffirming a “commitment” to Ukraine’s borders and being legally required to go to war are two very different ideas."
Fact Check: Could a Little-Known International Agreement With Ukraine Force U.S., Britain Into War With Russia? | TheBlaze.com



Now....since the term "war" doesn't appear in the OP.....

....could you explain yourself?

Explain? I was making a joke that I guessed no one would get. I guessed right.

The Charge of the Light Brigade took place in the Crimean War. ha ha. Get it? lol

I'm here mostly for my own amusement, btw, in case that isn't clear.