The Left’s real choice in 2016: Why it doesn’t need Warren to run to take over party and -- America

[Nyvin]

And by the way, a lawsuit over Obama making up a program to illegally give away billions of dollars hardly qualifies as "silly"....

It is silly, the entire lawsuit depends on just four words in a section of the ACA not even directly laying out the details of the subsidies. It isn't giving them away illegally because to hold the states to making an exchange or losing subsidies would be unconstitutional since it's coercion by the national government (build exchanges or you lose subsidies). The only logical conclusion is that the federal exchange is the one "in place of" the state exchange, and thus the subsidies are obviously legal (duh...).

The GOP can't pass anything, if you think they can agree on a national healthcare fix you're crazy.

Which is rewriting the law by executive action. Interesting prospect, but Obama can't rule by imperial edict. The law needs to stand or fall as written. Or would you like to see a precedent set where the next Republican President can rule by decree, regardless of the will of Congress or what the law states?

It isn't rewriting the law....it's interpreting it the way it was meant to be interpreted. "Established by the state" is the only phrase in the ACA that pertains to King vs Burwell. That phrase is easily open to interpretation, as can already be seen by the lawsuit being struck down by both the 4th circuit and the DC circuit courts.

There were too many cases (by tea partiers...) swarming the court system on this issue so the Supremes took it up to settle it once and for all. They don't have a Circuit Court ruling in favor of King at all, giving credit to the idea that the lawsuit is silly.

 

[Obiwan]

So, can you post a budget bill specifically authorizing the subsidies? One passed by Congress? If not, Obama took it on himself to raid the piggy bank.

 

[Nyvin]

So, can you post a budget bill specifically authorizing the subsidies? One passed by Congress? If not, Obama took it on himself to raid the piggy bank.

Yes, the ACA.

 

[Obiwan]

Exactly where in the ACA does it state that the federal government will allocate those funds? I must have missed that part
....

 

[Nyvin]

Exactly where in the ACA does it state that the federal government will allocate those funds? I must have missed that part
....

Oh gee, here we go full round robin. Yes the ACA says the subsidies go out to anyone who gets their insurance plan off an exchange. There ya go, now go ahead and rehash what was said on the last page.

 

[ChrisL]

Meh, I don't agree with the right wingers about healthcare at all. I think people are entitled to cheap or even free healthcare. The ONLY point I disagree with the current healthcare plan is that it punishes those who choose not to partake. It should be an individual choice on whether you want to buy healthcare insurance or not.

IMO, what should happen is we should stop giving away so much money to foreign countries, only give money to our allies, and use the money we save to establish a healthcare system that covers everyone for FREE. We help so many other countries but not our OWN people. That has to change.

 

[Obiwan]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

 

[Nyvin]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

 

[ChrisL]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

 

[Nyvin]

Meh, I don't agree with the right wingers about healthcare at all. I think people are entitled to cheap or even free healthcare. The ONLY point I disagree with the current healthcare plan is that it punishes those who choose not to partake. It should be an individual choice on whether you want to buy healthcare insurance or not.
.

First off your point is kinda ridiculous, since "free healthcare" would mean you wouldn't have to buy it...so umm...

Anyway, this resembles the system we used to have, only Insurance companies were allowed to turn people down for coverage due their health conditions.

Sick people not being able to get insurance led to lots of bankruptcies, lots of dead people, and really sad stories, not to mention ER care that ends up costing taxpayers way too much anyway.

So you let anyone buy health insurance regardless of their health! yay! oh but wait...now all those sick people cost insurance companies lots of money, and they have to hike their premiums up to stay profitable. With higher premiums the healthier people who don't need insurance as much stop getting it, meaning the pool is made up even more of sick people, and the premiums have to be risen again! Death Spiral....ta da!

The only way possible to have a free insurance market and allow all people to get insurance regardless of their health is to have the mandate. And if you look over the statistics it's working fantastically so far.

 

[Nyvin]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

 

[Obiwan]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

Of course I do. Apparently a lot of other citizens have a problem with the scheme too, preferring to pay the penalty instead.

 

[ChrisL]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

 

[Nyvin]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

Anymore I question if the tax is really needed. People do like having the security of owning health insurance, as long as it stay affordable they'll buy it on their own (from what I've seen...)

I understand the need for it though, remember...Death Spiral!!!!

 

[Obiwan]

Nyvin

Word is, a lot of Americans are choosing to pay the penalty instead of buying insurance. What's this about that being a "death spiral"?

 

[Nyvin]

Nyvin

Word is, a lot of Americans are choosing to pay the penalty instead of buying insurance. What's this about that being a "death spiral"?

No actually the uninsured rate is dropping dramatically and Health Insurance companies have never had it better (minus all the new competition). I don't think figures are out yet on how many paid the penalty.

 

[ChrisL]

Apparently this conversation is taking the form of "what the definition of is is"...... Looks like we'll have to leave it up to the Supreme Court to determine if Obama has the right to substitute "the federal government" for the phrase obviously referring to the individual states.

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

Anymore I question if the tax is really needed. People do like having the security of owning health insurance, as long as it stay affordable they'll buy it on their own (from what I've seen...)

I understand the need for it though, remember...Death Spiral!!!!

I really wouldn't mind seeing a single payer system here. HOWEVER, it seems everything the government touches turns sour. All the red tape and delays, etc.? That would be my biggest concern about government run healthcare. I think all Americans are entitled to it, but should not be forced to partake with the threat of a tax penalty. I understand that it's a stupid decision to make, but it should be an individual choice and one should not be penalized for not buying a product.

I also wonder if there weren't other things that could have been done to make healthcare more affordable because, you know, it really is the fact that medical care is SO expensive that is the real issue. Health insurance companies have to raise rates to keep up in order to make a profit to stay in business. When we have to pay $10.00 for an aspirin or $150 for a bag of saline fluid, then that tells me there is a problem with our healthcare system.

 

[Nyvin]

Well, the 4th Circuit and DC Circuit have already given their opinions. It's not the one the Tea Party was after unfortunately.

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

Anymore I question if the tax is really needed. People do like having the security of owning health insurance, as long as it stay affordable they'll buy it on their own (from what I've seen...)

I understand the need for it though, remember...Death Spiral!!!!

I really wouldn't mind seeing a single payer system here. HOWEVER, it seems everything the government touches turns sour. All the red tape and delays, etc.? That would be my biggest concern about government run healthcare. I think all Americans are entitled to it, but should not be forced to partake with the threat of a tax penalty. I understand that it's a stupid decision to make, but it should be an individual choice and one should not be penalized for not buying a product.

I also wonder if there weren't other things that could have been done to make healthcare more affordable because, you know, it really is the fact that medical care is SO expensive that is the real issue. Health insurance companies have to raise rates to keep up in order to make a profit to stay in business. When we have to pay $10.00 for an aspirin or $150 for a bag of saline fluid, then that tells me there is a problem with our healthcare system.

Believe it or not Obamacare is probably the most free-market friendly healthcare system you can get without it just being the simple free for all that we had previously (which was an utter mess...).

The principles of ACA was written by the Heritage Foundation and passed by Romney in Massachusetts afterall....

 

[ChrisL]

You don't believe it is unconstitutional to force Americans to buy a product?

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

Anymore I question if the tax is really needed. People do like having the security of owning health insurance, as long as it stay affordable they'll buy it on their own (from what I've seen...)

I understand the need for it though, remember...Death Spiral!!!!

I really wouldn't mind seeing a single payer system here. HOWEVER, it seems everything the government touches turns sour. All the red tape and delays, etc.? That would be my biggest concern about government run healthcare. I think all Americans are entitled to it, but should not be forced to partake with the threat of a tax penalty. I understand that it's a stupid decision to make, but it should be an individual choice and one should not be penalized for not buying a product.

I also wonder if there weren't other things that could have been done to make healthcare more affordable because, you know, it really is the fact that medical care is SO expensive that is the real issue. Health insurance companies have to raise rates to keep up in order to make a profit to stay in business. When we have to pay $10.00 for an aspirin or $150 for a bag of saline fluid, then that tells me there is a problem with our healthcare system.

Believe it or not Obamacare is probably the most free-market friendly healthcare system you can get without it just being the simple free for all that we had previously (which was an utter mess...).

The principles of ACA was written by the Heritage Foundation and passed by Romney in Massachusetts afterall....

Yes, I'm well aware of that since I'm from MA. That doesn't mean I agree with it though. I would rather see a single payer system if not for some problems like I mentioned before.

 

[Nyvin]

It's not forced, you buy it or you pay a "tax" as Justice Roberts put it.

A "tax" is just a loophole they found to penalize Americans. Now don't be dishonest. It was a sleazy manipulation. That is all.

Anymore I question if the tax is really needed. People do like having the security of owning health insurance, as long as it stay affordable they'll buy it on their own (from what I've seen...)

I understand the need for it though, remember...Death Spiral!!!!

I really wouldn't mind seeing a single payer system here. HOWEVER, it seems everything the government touches turns sour. All the red tape and delays, etc.? That would be my biggest concern about government run healthcare. I think all Americans are entitled to it, but should not be forced to partake with the threat of a tax penalty. I understand that it's a stupid decision to make, but it should be an individual choice and one should not be penalized for not buying a product.

I also wonder if there weren't other things that could have been done to make healthcare more affordable because, you know, it really is the fact that medical care is SO expensive that is the real issue. Health insurance companies have to raise rates to keep up in order to make a profit to stay in business. When we have to pay $10.00 for an aspirin or $150 for a bag of saline fluid, then that tells me there is a problem with our healthcare system.

Believe it or not Obamacare is probably the most free-market friendly healthcare system you can get without it just being the simple free for all that we had previously (which was an utter mess...).

The principles of ACA was written by the Heritage Foundation and passed by Romney in Massachusetts afterall....

Yes, I'm well aware of that since I'm from MA. That doesn't mean I agree with it though. I would rather see a single payer system if not for some problems like I mentioned before.

There's always going to be problems with any system, just gotta go with something or another.