The history in Poland invalidates claim that women suffer when elective abortion is illegal

[koshergrl]

Poland has enjoyed state-sanctioned abortion a couple of times...under the Nazis, of course, then under Russia. Then there was revocation (since again revoked) of state sanctions of abortion (elective abortion became illegal).

"...here we have a large nation that, for four and a half decades, had abortion-on-request, paid for by the state. Certainly, the practice of abortion in Poland had become deeply ingrained. Then came independence and a law that took the total number of abortions down to 0.004% of what they had been, and this contrary to all predictions by government agencies, the media, the UN and Planned Parenthood. To perhaps everyone's surprise, there have been 25% fewer miscarriages and 30% fewer women dying compared with what it had been while abortion was legal. In the latest annual report, 21 women died from pregnancy-related problems, with none listed as dying from illegal abortions."

So there wasn't a surge in abortion related deaths when elective abortion was made illegal, and in fact the reproductive health of women IMPROVED. Poland, upon the termination of state-sanctioned abortion, enjoyed significantly fewer deaths from maternal-related complications (which are often actually abortion-related complications, deliberately or mistakenly misidentified on death certificates by professionals who either want to hide the nature of the death, or who want to protect the people who are responsible).

Fact 12 Prior to abortion s legalization 90 of abortions were done by doctors not by coat hangers in back alleys.

 

[Syriusly]

Poland has enjoyed state-sanctioned abortion a couple of times...under the Nazis, of course, then under Russia. Then there was revocation (since again revoked) of state sanctions of abortion (elective abortion became illegal).

"...here we have a large nation that, for four and a half decades, had abortion-on-request, paid for by the state. Certainly, the practice of abortion in Poland had become deeply ingrained. Then came independence and a law that took the total number of abortions down to 0.004% of what they had been, and this contrary to all predictions by government agencies, the media, the UN and Planned Parenthood. To perhaps everyone's surprise, there have been 25% fewer miscarriages and 30% fewer women dying compared with what it had been while abortion was legal. In the latest annual report, 21 women died from pregnancy-related problems, with none listed as dying from illegal abortions."

So there wasn't a surge in abortion related deaths when elective abortion was made illegal, and in fact the reproductive health of women IMPROVED. Poland, upon the termination of state-sanctioned abortion, enjoyed significantly fewer deaths from maternal-related complications (which are often actually abortion-related complications, deliberately or mistakenly misidentified on death certificates by professionals who either want to hide the nature of the death, or who want to protect the people who are responsible).

Fact 12 Prior to abortion s legalization 90 of abortions were done by doctors not by coat hangers in back alleys.

Staunchly Catholic Poland takes a new look at easing abortion laws - CSMonitor.com

A costly and dangerous procedure
When a woman decides to have an abortion for non-legal reasons, it is either performed on the black market or in other European countries, such as Germany, Britain, or the Czech Republic. The procedure often comes at a high financial cost – between 1,500 and 4,500 zloty ($450 to $1,350) – and for most women, it is as much as their average monthly salary.

Although many underground abortions are thought to be safe and performed by professionals, its covert and unregulated nature ensures there is always risk involved.

"It's never as safe as if it was in a clinic, openly, where you have access to emergency services when something goes wrong," explains Anka Grzywacz of the Polish Federation for Women and Family Planning.

One patient recalls a doctor smoking cigarettes in the room where the procedure was to take place. Another tells of being abandoned by the doctor before she woke up from the surgery, leaving her to find a way home, still in excruciating pain. Doctors are especially fearful. Even though they reap a sizable profit, it is they, not the women obtaining the abortion, who are prosecuted by the penal system.

Increasingly, women are turning to the Internet for information about and support for abortion. One of the most well-known and utilized sources is the Dutch NGO Women on Web – an extension of Women on Waves, which controversially provides abortions on ships. The Internet has also been an important way for women who want or who have had abortions to share their experiences anonymously, since many never tell a single person – not even their best friend.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Pregnant Polish women just drive to the nearest state where abortions are legal or they have an illegal abortion instead.

 

[koshergrl]

It's also a lie that before Roe v Wade, women couldn't get medically necessary or even emotionally expedient abortions in this country.

And all done by real doctors. Fancy that.

 

[koshergrl]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers. The lie that there is any oversight of the abortion industry in this country. The lie that there are any statistics that prove any of the nonsense that we hear in support of abortion from the CDC, the Guttmacher Inst., or PP. Their own sites have the disclaimers that say their numbers mean nothing. They're just good guesses by people who are motivated to encourage a LOT of abortion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers. The lie that there is any oversight of the abortion industry in this country. The lie that there are any statistics that prove any of the nonsense that we hear in support of abortion from the CDC, the Guttmacher Inst., or PP. Their own sites have the disclaimers that say their numbers mean nothing. They're just good guesses by people who are motivated to encourage a LOT of abortion.

The only person lying about abortion is the OP.

The factual data has demonstrated that contraception reduces the incidence of abortion and providing it has reduced the incidence of abortion.

If the OP really cased about abortion she would be supporting all of the efforts to ensure that teens were educated and provided with access to contraception.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers. The lie that there is any oversight of the abortion industry in this country. The lie that there are any statistics that prove any of the nonsense that we hear in support of abortion from the CDC, the Guttmacher Inst., or PP. Their own sites have the disclaimers that say their numbers mean nothing. They're just good guesses by people who are motivated to encourage a LOT of abortion.

No society has ever gotten better when abortion was criminalized.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Poland has enjoyed state-sanctioned abortion a couple of times...under the Nazis, of course, then under Russia.

Factually incorrect:

In Nazi Germany, which included territories of Poland 1939-1945, the penalties for abortion were increased and in 1943, providing an abortion to an "Aryan" woman became a capital offense.

Abortion in Poland - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[g5000]

The back-alley abortion myth is just that. A myth. Women weren't dying by the tens of thousands from them before Roe v. Wade. That story was a deliberate and willful lie told by the pro-choicers.

Now for some differences between Poland and the US.

The ban on abortion is total in Poland. In the US, if it was left up to the states as it was before Roe v. Wade, you would have quite a few states where it would be legal.

Therefore, it is a mistake to believe the number of abortions would plummet in the US commensurate with the plummeting rate in Poland.

Years ago, I did a very thorough examination into how many abortions there were prior to, and after, Roe v. Wade. Like many pro-lifers, I assumed there were a lot less legal abortions before Roe v. Wade.

I was quite surprised to discover there were almost as many abortions in the US prior to Roe v. Wade as after! This was a most disconcerting and disappointing discovery. I had my numbers and facts checked by a lot of very smart people and they confirmed them for me.

So I learned that if Roe v. Wade were reversed today, it would have little affect on the number of abortions in America. In fact, abortion is far more socially acceptable today than it was 45 years ago.

One must then conclude that putting so much effort into reversing Roe v. Wade is a waste of valuable energy.

Yes, Roe v. Wade should be overturned as a matter of principle for those of us who believe abortion is murder. Absolutely.

But when faced with the fact there would be no change in the rate of abortion as a result of all that effort, then we need to start looking at methods that would achieve the real aim (dramatically reduce abortions) and start channeling more of our energy in that direction.

During my examination of abortion in America, I discovered that nearly half of all abortions are the result of no birth control being used during the sexual act which led to the unwanted pregnancy. This is an astonishing figure! What's more, another 19 percent are the result of the inconsistent or improper use of birth control.

To have an effective program which actually would dramatically reduce the rate of abortions, then, the obvious solution jumps right out at you.

 

[Syriusly]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"The history in Poland invalidates claim that women suffer when elective abortion is illegal"

This fails as a red herring fallacy.

That you don't understand the issue comes as no surprise.

The issue concerns safeguarding the right to privacy of all citizens, placing vital restrictions on the authority of government to engage in unwarranted interference in citizens' personal lives, where fundamental life choices, such as whether to have a child or not, are immune from attack by the state.

And the most important aspect of the issue concerns you and other reprobates on the social right who seek to expand the size and authority of government at the expense of individual liberty.

You and other social conservatives are the bane of the American Nation, and pose the greatest threat to our civil liberties.

 

[Derideo_Te]

To have an effective program which actually would dramatically reduce the rate of abortions, then, the obvious solution jumps right out at you.

Then why does it escape the vast majority of those opposed to abortion?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

Exactly.

And what is the OP's solution to ending abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

Exactly.

And what is the OP's solution to ending abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

Criminalizing women by denying them their rights and charging doctors with murder.

 

[g5000]

To have an effective program which actually would dramatically reduce the rate of abortions, then, the obvious solution jumps right out at you.

Then why does it escape the vast majority of those opposed to abortion?

Two reasons.

One, they are too narrowly focused on Roe v. Wade and are probably unaware there would be no change in the rate of abortions were it overturned.

Two, and probably the biggest reason, the conversation is dominated by the extremes of both sides. It is a very emotional issue and even people who are otherwise level-headed get pushed toward the poles by the intransigence of their opponents. I've felt that push myself many times.

 

[g5000]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

Exactly.

And what is the OP's solution to ending abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

Criminalizing women by denying them their rights and charging doctors with murder.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, women were not prosecuted for getting an abortion. Abortionists were.

The same is true in Poland today.

So I would stop building straw men and putting words in koshergrl's mouth.

 

[Derideo_Te]

To have an effective program which actually would dramatically reduce the rate of abortions, then, the obvious solution jumps right out at you.

Then why does it escape the vast majority of those opposed to abortion?

Two reasons.

One, they are too narrowly focused on Roe v. Wade and are probably unaware there would be no change in the rate of abortions were it overturned.

Two, and probably the biggest reason, the conversation is dominated by the extremes of both sides. It is a very emotional issue and even people who are otherwise level-headed get pushed toward the poles by the intransigence of their opponents.

In other words when they perceive the issue as binary there is no middle ground.

And yes, people who emote can't think for themselves.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

Exactly.

And what is the OP's solution to ending abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

Criminalizing women by denying them their rights and charging doctors with murder.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, women were not prosecuted for getting an abortion. Abortionists were.

The same is true in Poland today.

So I would stop building straw men and putting words in koshergrl's mouth.

I was speaking about the net effect of KG's position on the Law of the Land, not her actual words.

Yes, it is easier to prosecute the providers than those who "willingly aided and abetted them". (Legal terminology only.)

But if KG's will did become the Law of the Land a lawyer is going to bring in a destitute mother with 3 children and no ability to support another to portray the provider as someone who was helping the poor and downtrodden and ask the jury if they are willing to try her as the accused's accomplice?

Hence what KG wants is never going to happen.

 

[g5000]

Our abortion culture is built upon a huge network of lies. The lie that women without abortion on demand die...in a variety of ways. The lie that in order to REDUCE ABORTIONS and abortion deaths, you must legalize abortion on demand for all...the lie that an abortion is a *safe* procedure. The lie that abortionists are legitimate health providers.

Abortion is a 'safe procedure'- but like any medical procedure it can go wrong. And yes- legal abortions reduce abortion deaths, and yes, the medical providers who provide abortion services are legitimate health providers- your lies notwithstanding.

I am all for reducing abortion- even eliminating abortion by eliminating any demand for abortion.

So- what is your position on contraception to reduce abortion?

Exactly.

And what is the OP's solution to ending abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

Criminalizing women by denying them their rights and charging doctors with murder.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, women were not prosecuted for getting an abortion. Abortionists were.

The same is true in Poland today.

So I would stop building straw men and putting words in koshergrl's mouth.

I was speaking about the net effect of KG's position on the Law of the Land, not her actual words.

Yes, it is easier to prosecute the providers than those who "willingly aided and abetted them". (Legal terminology only.)

But if KG's will did become the Law of the Land a lawyer is going to bring in a destitute mother with 3 children and no ability to support another to portray the provider as someone who was helping the poor and downtrodden and ask the jury if they are willing to try her as the accused's accomplice?

Hence what KG wants is never going to happen.

I did not see where koshergrl called for the prosecution of the mother. Was that in another topic somewhere, or are you making an assumption?

 

[g5000]

"The history in Poland invalidates claim that women suffer when elective abortion is illegal"

This fails as a red herring fallacy.

That you don't understand the issue comes as no surprise.

The issue concerns safeguarding the right to privacy of all citizens, placing vital restrictions on the authority of government to engage in unwarranted interference in citizens' personal lives, where fundamental life choices, such as whether to have a child or not, are immune from attack by the state.

It is sometimes really financially and/or emotionally inconvenient to have a spouse. Would you be upset if the government interfered in our private lives and prevented someone from killing their spouse?

Sometimes a job is lost and/or someone becomes very ill and then there is suddenly a huge financial burden on the family. Maybe even a permanent one. Would you be upset if the government interfered in our private lives and prevented someone from culling a few kids?

How is you can see grasp the appropriateness of state interference for the protection of human life in one circumstance, but utterly fail to see the same principle is involved with an unborn life? How is it you can see that human life trumps privacy in one case but cannot see the same principle at work in another?

For pro-lifers, the unborn life is just as important as a five year old kid's life. It isn't hard to understand, if you want to.