The Greatest Redistribution of Income in History

[georgephillip]

Industry?

As in Apple or Appaloosa?

"Apple Corporation, for example, earned about $6 billion in 2009 by expertly engaging its 35,000 employees. (They went on to earn $6 billion in the last quarter of 2010 alone.) Along the way they offered us an array of popular new products that people are enjoying and putting to use.

"Appaloosa, the hedge fund, earned about as much as Apple in 2009 by speculating on god knows what. But it has fewer than 250 employees and it's not at all clear what these individuals added to our economy -- certainly not the iPad. How can 250 workers, no matter how wise and talented, produce as much real worth speculating on stuff as 35,000 Apple employees can make inventing, manufacturing and marketing useful products? They can't. So hedge funds must be siphoning off wealth from elsewhere, not creating it themselves."

Does the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate) qualify as industry? Does industry as we know it exist without Finance, Insurance and Real Estate?

When Michael Hudson talks about corporate raiders borrowing high-interest "junk bond" credit to buy profitable companies and then make money by stripping assets, cutting back long term investments along with research and development in order to pay out depreciation credit to their financiers, does the government's tax bias of debt over equity investing affect industry and unemployment?

Obama's Greatest Betrayal

This is a terrible argument.

I am not wont to defend egregiously paid hedge fund managers, but they entered into contracts to manage the savings of individuals and institutions who of their own volition agreed to pay them levels of compensation based on specified targets. Thus, the hedge fund manager has every right to collect as much money as they did, even though I can't find anything to substantiate that Appaloosa earned $8 billion - Apple's 2009 income - which I believe is a gross exaggeration.

Finance is not an industry? Insurance is not an industry? Real estate is not an industry? The author of that article shows a stunning ignorance of economics. Finance represents capital and savings, which is invested within the economy to make the economy grow. Insurance plays a hugely critical role spreading risk throughout society. And you can't live nor go to work anywhere without the real estate industry. That's mind-boggling.

Would you agree with Michael Hudson's argument about corporate raiders borrowing high-interest "junk bond" credit to buy profitable industries only to strip assets, cut back long term investment and threaten their work force with bankruptcy if employees don't agree to "downsize" their pensions?

Obama's Greatest Betrayal

 

[MikeK]

Feel free to link to any evidence showing how the WPA increased US unemployment during the 1930s.

Then explain why middle and upper-middle class US families have handed over $12,500 every year since 1980 to the richest 1% of Americans.

1) Complete winger link
2) Show any law where funds are taken from middle and upper-middle class persons to be redistributed to 'the rich'
3) How is something they never earned in the first place taken away from anyone?

You are a fucking idiot.... I would suggest help for your mental illness

Are you really this fucking stupid/ignorant/...?

Follow the money:

George,

Since I started using the Ignore feature to filter out the yapping chihuahuas the forum has become surprisingly more friendly and productive.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Finance is not an industry? Insurance is not an industry? Real estate is not an industry? The author of that article shows a stunning ignorance of economics. Finance represents capital and savings, which is invested within the economy to make the economy grow. Insurance plays a hugely critical role spreading risk throughout society. And you can't live nor go to work anywhere without the real estate industry. That's mind-boggling.

The word industry may be applied to any organized and systematic means of producing a substantial profit. Its use is not confined to manufacturing. The financial sector and the banking sector are industries. So are the insurance, pornography and illegal drug businesses.

 

[Londoner]

Do you have any thoughts on what the US/Global economy may look like in the Fall of 2012?

I doubt there is a reliable timeline for the long unwinding of an entire class of Americans, but the endgame is the same:

Neoliberal anarcho-capitalism and the rapid, violent bifurcation of "haves" and "have nots" into something like the 3rd world, that is, we will see staggering opulence (inside self-sustaining heavily fortified neighborhoods) surrounded by exploding poverty, as the old remnants of the middle class wander through a rapidly decaying, crime ridden, totally dysfunctional public sector - where, eventually, energy grids fail, bridges collapse, mercenary armies roam the streets in tanks, and entire families live inside stink-filled minivans competing for who gets to lick the hardened cheese off 3 day old Burger King wrappers.

The credit cards Reagan handed out in 1980 are gone. We even hawked our houses to keep the middle class on an artificial respirator. There is no next fake stimulus left. The consumer economy is dead, and demand cannot be resurrected under the current distribution structure. Debt and energy prices will stagnate any growth. After the GOP eliminates Social Security and Medicare, the poor will have to become servants. We will see a slow devolution back to a kind of quasi-slavery. America will come full circle. Capital does not like to pay for labor. Never did.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Can't buy crap or do much if you are out of work, without income, homeless, broke, borken economy or dead.... China, and the global elite progressives are elated....

 

[georgephillip]

[...]

Finance is not an industry? Insurance is not an industry? Real estate is not an industry? The author of that article shows a stunning ignorance of economics. Finance represents capital and savings, which is invested within the economy to make the economy grow. Insurance plays a hugely critical role spreading risk throughout society. And you can't live nor go to work anywhere without the real estate industry. That's mind-boggling.

The word industry may be applied to any organized and systematic means of producing a substantial profit. Its use is not confined to manufacturing. The financial sector and the banking sector are industries. So are the insurance, pornography and illegal drug businesses.

I think the confusion arose over an exchange between daveman and myself conflating manufacture and industry. I can't recall the exact numbers at this moment; however, there was a time when finance served manufacturing in this country.

Those numbers have flipped dramatically in the last generation, and neither elected Republicans nor Democrats have the political capital necessary to effect change.

Your linkage of insurance, pornography and illegal drugs reminds me of something Catherine Austin Fitts has said about "legitimate" governments:

"For the last five hundred years, the only thing worse for any politician than getting caught doing business with organized crime has been to lose control of the revenue streams generated by criminal activity."

'Doesn't seem likely our elected Republicans or Democrats will ever vote to change that.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Glenn Beck And Van Jones...
Birds of a Feather Pacify Together

Birds of a Feather Pacify Together American Everyman

Ronald Reagan Jr.?s view on how to promote social justice?Violence??? :: WRAL.com

GEORGE SOROS

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=977

Authorities lose patience with collapsing dollar - Telegraph

THE G7 "SOLUTION" TO THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS:
A MARSHALL PLAN FOR CREDITORS AND SPECULATORS

The G7 "Solution" to the Global Financial Crisis

DIARY: G7, IMF and World Bank meetings in Washington | Reuters

George Soros Openly Discusses the coming New World Order | Ron Paul 2012 | Sound Money, Peace and Liberty

 

[georgephillip]

Do you have any thoughts on what the US/Global economy may look like in the Fall of 2012?

I doubt there is a reliable timeline for the long unwinding of an entire class of Americans, but the endgame is the same:

Neoliberal anarcho-capitalism and the rapid, violent bifurcation of "haves" and "have nots" into something like the 3rd world, that is, we will see staggering opulence (inside self-sustaining heavily fortified neighborhoods) surrounded by exploding poverty, as the old remnants of the middle class wander through a rapidly decaying, crime ridden, totally dysfunctional public sector - where, eventually, energy grids fail, bridges collapse, mercenary armies roam the streets in tanks, and entire families live inside stink-filled minivans competing for who gets to lick the hardened cheese off 3 day old Burger King wrappers.

The credit cards Reagan handed out in 1980 are gone. We even hawked our houses to keep the middle class on an artificial respirator. There is no next fake stimulus left. The consumer economy is dead, and demand cannot be resurrected under the current distribution structure. Debt and energy prices will stagnate any growth. After the GOP eliminates Social Security and Medicare, the poor will have to become servants. We will see a slow devolution back to a kind of quasi-slavery. America will come full circle. Capital does not like to pay for labor. Never did.

"Capital does not like to pay for labor.
Never did."

Capital owns the Republican AND Democratic Parties.
Limiting your "choice" at the polls to R or D only enhances Capital.

If 100 - 200 Republican AND Democrat incumbents are FLUSHED from congress in November of 2012?

Maybe they and their children will be the ones competing for those three day old Burger King wrappers?

 

[zeitgeist2012]

The only thing I do not like is the pacification Glenn promotes when he likes to quote Jefferson...

Famous Thomas Jefferson Quote

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

 

[Vanquish]

You wanna know the history of the world in a nutshell? Here you go.

People with money and power USE money and power TO KEEP OTHERS FROM GETTING money and power.

It is reasonable to a) want people to work for what they get b) not give handouts c) not want their hard work taken from them

It is also unreasonable to think that a) the rich don't use money and power to gain gross advantages over the middle-class and poor and b) that opportunities are more readily available for those who have capital on hand to take advantage of them

My point being - the truth is somewhere in the middle. The rich aren't totally evil...but it's a fact that their evil (when it surfaces) can have more impact.

I own my own business, more than a handful of rental properties, more than one house, more than one car, etc etc. I don't feel guilty for being successful, nor do I want my success taxed unfairly...however the separation of rich and poor is coming to a head in this country and it's hurting us all.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

The Declaration of Independence states:
"we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

We are each given the "opportunity" to reach our goals of success and prosperity. We are not, however, promised or guaranteed that one will be provided for us. That's what you fail to understand. We are each given the "potential" to achieve success through ( 1 ) hard work, ( 2 ) education, and ( 3 ) accepting personal responsibility. If you are having a difficult time finding the financial independence and "success" you desire, it's because you are lacking in one of the three. Wealth redistribution only adds to the discouragement of hard work, rewards complacency and a lack of initiative, as well as breeds mediocrity.

The paragraph from the Declaration of Independence refers specifically to slavery and is not at all relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps you should consider a study into American history and the Declaration of Independence. If that section of the Declaration of Independence was solely "written during that period of time" for the purpose of addressing ( as you say ) slavery, why did so many of our founders continue to be slave owners? Why the later need for the 13th Amendment of the Constitution? Nice try, but you should study a little further before your next reply. This statement declares the hopes, rights, and "opportunities" we each have as citizens of this country. Prosperity is never handed to us, it must be obtained through the individual's own efforts! Where was there EVER an amendment or a statement made, that we are promised or guaranteed to have anything provided FOR us? You have the opportunity but NO GUARANTEE. It is not the Federal Government's job, nor was it ever, to PROVIDE for your happiness PERIOD! Nothing in the Constitution, and no part of the Declaration of Independence, ever makes that claim.


To obtain prosperity requires:
( 1 ) Hard work. You must work hard for what you want in life, not sitting on a recliner waiting for that "redistribution check" because you want to cry over someone else's hard efforts. If it takes a night job, so you can afford to go to school during the day, so be it. How prosperous you are, is first put to the test through your own determination [through YOUR OWN personal efforts] to do whatever it takes to get it done. You need to get off your ass and apply yourself.

( 2 ) Education. The Federal Government already provides public education. What you aspire to do with it, depends on how seriously you take it to begin with. If you don't apply yourself and "choose" to not graduate, it's not the governments job to pick up after your own poor choices ( that's where personal responsibility comes in ). I shed no tears over those who make the personal choice they don't need an education, and later whine because they find themselves in poverty. I have chosen to work two jobs at once, then later the military, to find the resources I need to get educated into a career. Jealousy is not an excuse for remaining ignorant. You want to be successful? You want to make a large income? LEARN for yourself [through eduction, and seeking after those who are successful] what it will take to get there, but the road is not easy as it was never meant to be. Higher income is a reward for harder work, to include the pursuit and sacrifice of many hours of study. If you don't like being an employee with its limited income, educate yourself and work towards becoming an owner. People who choose a higher lifestyle FIRST choose the sacrifice, the responsibility, the stress, and the hard work it takes to get there. If that high toll of effort is not worth it, then don't expect the reward of a higher income. To simply walk through life with a "my Government shall supply all my needs" pacifier, and allow them to provide you with income out of the "Jealousy" of someone else's efforts, is to condone laziness and discourage hard work.

( 3 ) Personal Responsibility. This is where the rubber meets the road. YOU not anyone else, is the determining factor: of how successful you want to be, how much stress you are willing to tolerate, and what risks you are willing to take. Yes financial success comes with risks, if you desire to seek to obtain the high stakes of reward. Previous generations in this country have grown stronger, are more determined, increased in education, and are harder workers based on the failures they had to endure. The question is are you going to follow after THAT determination, or are you going to wallow in your despair and complain over the achievements of others when you happen to fail? Unfortunately, all to often, I find the hard work ethics of the past generations to be dwindling. People are more willing to simply [default] receive a hand out from the government, than to obtain a personal reward in knowing the achievement that comes from their own efforts. There is also no shame in having to downsize, due to hard times, only to seek further education or work even harder to get back up. Perhaps the REAL issue is: our nation has become far too materialistic in our happiness, and less appreciative of the "values" many of our past generations have tried to instill in us.

 

[Vanquish]

It's great to be naive and think that hard work and personal responsibility shield you from the evils of others...but it doesnt happen that way all the time.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

It's great to be naive and think that hard work and personal responsibility shield you from the evils of others...but it doesnt happen that way all the time.

To overcome adversity shows greater determination and wisdom, than simply backing down and looking for any excuse to quit. Where would we be without people like Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, or even George Washington? It's in the face of adversity where an individual develops their true character.

 

[gekaap]

Oh, you mean ad hominem like this?

What a flaming hypocrite.

It's not an ad hominem to describe your behavior as negative. Maybe educate yourself a bit first, and come back and try again. I've established clear arguments and evidence for my position. All you keep doing, toward everyone, is name calling. You obviously have nothing.

 

[newpolitics]

It's great to be naive and think that hard work and personal responsibility shield you from the evils of others...but it doesnt happen that way all the time.

So true. Thank you for your honesty and intellect.

 

[rhodescholar]

It's not an ad hominem to describe your behavior as negative. Maybe educate yourself a bit first, and come back and try again. I've established clear arguments and evidence for my position. All you keep doing, toward everyone, is name calling. You obviously have nothing.

You're a fucking idiot. In one post, you did EXACTLY what you accused him of doing.

You made a post with zero facts, purely of accusations and insults - attacking him for doing that. Do you own a mirror in your trailer home?

 

[daveman]

Oh, you mean ad hominem like this?

What a flaming hypocrite.

It's not an ad hominem to describe your behavior as negative. Maybe educate yourself a bit first, and come back and try again. I've established clear arguments and evidence for my position. All you keep doing, toward everyone, is name calling. You obviously have nothing.

No. I have nothing that you will accept. Your refusal to see it doesn't mean it's not there; it merely means you don't want to consider anything that goes against your preconceived notions.

 

[Chris]

From Common Dreams.org:

How much have the richest 1% stolen since 1980?

"If you make less than $114,000 a year (90% of us), you've been financially damaged by the flow of income to the richest 1% of Americans over the past 30 years.

"Based on Internal Revenue Service figures, if middle- and upper-middle class families had maintained the same share of American productivity that they held in 1980, they would be making an average of $12,500 more per year."

Since US GDP has increased five-fold since 1980 is it not reasonable to say upper-middle class families should have maintained their same share of the economic pie?

"But if earnings since 1980 were based on this measure of productiveness, the richest 1% of Americans would be making $1 trillion less per year.

"A trillion dollars a year. That's more than we spend on the entire military.

"A trillion dollars a year. That's seven times more than the budget deficits of all 50 states combined...

"Who are the people making up the richest 1%? Bankers, CEOs, upper management, university presidents, Congressmen...

"Taxing them is not 'soaking the rich.'

"The greatest redistribution of income in history has taken place over the last 30 years, and the victims are beginning to make a fuss about it."

MAKE a FUSS!

 

[gekaap]

No. I have nothing that you will accept. Your refusal to see it doesn't mean it's not there; it merely means you don't want to consider anything that goes against your preconceived notions.

I have no preconceived notions, I'm going on simple facts. But yet again, you have offered NOTHING. Absolutely nothing, other than ranting and raving. If you did have something, you would have put it forth by now. Go shoot a squirrel and feel like a man.

 

[georgephillip]

From Common Dreams.org:

How much have the richest 1% stolen since 1980?

"If you make less than $114,000 a year (90% of us), you've been financially damaged by the flow of income to the richest 1% of Americans over the past 30 years.

"Based on Internal Revenue Service figures, if middle- and upper-middle class families had maintained the same share of American productivity that they held in 1980, they would be making an average of $12,500 more per year."

Since US GDP has increased five-fold since 1980 is it not reasonable to say upper-middle class families should have maintained their same share of the economic pie?

"But if earnings since 1980 were based on this measure of productiveness, the richest 1% of Americans would be making $1 trillion less per year.

"A trillion dollars a year. That's more than we spend on the entire military.

"A trillion dollars a year. That's seven times more than the budget deficits of all 50 states combined...

"Who are the people making up the richest 1%? Bankers, CEOs, upper management, university presidents, Congressmen...

"Taxing them is not 'soaking the rich.'

"The greatest redistribution of income in history has taken place over the last 30 years, and the victims are beginning to make a fuss about it."

MAKE a FUSS!

What if the worst is yet to come?

"To put matters in perspective, bear in mind that interest on the public debt (that Reagan-Bush quadrupled and Bush-Obama redoubled) soon will amount to $1 trillion annually.

"This is tribute levied on labor – increasing the economy’s cost of living and doing business – paid for losing the fight for economic reform and replacing progressive taxation with regressive neoliberal tax policy.

Finance, Insurance and Real Estate (FIRE) the new four-letter word?

Obama's Greatest Betrayal