The future of capitalism

[Foxfyre]

Capitalism is an absolutely imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent, and sorry way to run any economy. But it is far better than ANYTHING else out there. I think it is our best shot to avoid the worst of turbulent times as we adapt to new ways to work, live, and engage in recreation and other pursuits.

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Nope. We will cease to exist.

It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.

Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.

Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.

All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.

Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.

While I am pretty darn sure that fewer than 6 or 7% of workers are earning minimum wage, shorter hours and reduced incomes is the result of the current administration's policies. And it is true that more people go to college, but it is also true, IMO, that fewer educated people with an understanding of what makes the world work effectively for the most people are being graduated.

But that is hardly the fault of technology or lack of possibilities and opportunity. If we would unencumber ourselves from the radical destructive progressive policies that have created the current economy, I have every confidence that the human spirit will go right back to solving problems and figuring out new ways to do things and make a living.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Nope. We will cease to exist.

It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.

Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.

Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.

All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.

Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.

While I am pretty darn sure that fewer than 6 or 7% of workers are earning minimum wage, shorter hours and reduced incomes is the result of the current administration's policies. And it is true that more people go to college, but it is also true, IMO, that fewer educated people with an understanding of what makes the world work effectively for the most people are being graduated.

But that is hardly the fault of technology or lack of possibilities and opportunity. If we would unencumber ourselves from the radical destructive progressive policies that have created the current economy, I have every confidence that the human spirit will go right back to solving problems and figuring out new ways to do things and make a living.

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%. This is down from 45% 15 years ago and 67% 30 years ago. Additionally, the percentage of "underemployed" graduates has risen 71% during that time period. Profits at Universities have risen 500% over the same time period. I will look up the study and post it - as soon as I can.

My Wife has a MSN (Nursing) and has worked in the field for 35 years. Right now, new graduates are having one hell of a time finding work as Nurse Practitioners and are working as RNs. Underemployed.

My Cousin's kids (graduated with degrees in Engineering) are making great money, on the other hand. Bottom line? Choose your major carefully.

The problem lies with those who probably should never be in College in the first place. Those who can't find apprentice programs (Electrician, Carpenter, Truck Driver, etc) are in deep trouble. Those guys USED to work in manufacturing - and making good money. They built automobiles, Washers, dryers, etc. They made good living wages. What do they do now? Mexico benefits from those jobs. China benefits from those jobs. And those products are built for peanuts - returned to this country for sale and the massive profits go back to the companies. Companies that pay little to no taxes.

For this country to make ANY kind of a comeback - those jobs MUST come back to the United States (thanks Bill Clinton). Without the jobs - we are doomed. It is easy to say "Well, we have to become more "technology based"" Right. Where are all those computers we use right now built? China. Apple, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, et al. Thanks Bill Clinton.

The only people who benefited from NAFTA were politicians and corporations.

 

[Foxfyre]

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Nope. We will cease to exist.

It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.

Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.

Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.

All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.

Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.

While I am pretty darn sure that fewer than 6 or 7% of workers are earning minimum wage, shorter hours and reduced incomes is the result of the current administration's policies. And it is true that more people go to college, but it is also true, IMO, that fewer educated people with an understanding of what makes the world work effectively for the most people are being graduated.

But that is hardly the fault of technology or lack of possibilities and opportunity. If we would unencumber ourselves from the radical destructive progressive policies that have created the current economy, I have every confidence that the human spirit will go right back to solving problems and figuring out new ways to do things and make a living.

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%. This is down from 45% 15 years ago and 67% 30 years ago. Additionally, the percentage of "underemployed" graduates has risen 71% during that time period. Profits at Universities have risen 500% over the same time period. I will look up the study and post it - as soon as I can.

My Wife has a MSN (Nursing) and has worked in the field for 35 years. Right now, new graduates are having one hell of a time finding work as Nurse Practitioners and are working as RNs. Underemployed.

My Cousin's kids (graduated with degrees in Engineering) are making great money, on the other hand. Bottom line? Choose your major carefully.

The problem lies with those who probably should never be in College in the first place. Those who can't find apprentice programs (Electrician, Carpenter, Truck Driver, etc) are in deep trouble. Those guys USED to work in manufacturing - and making good money. They built automobiles, Washers, dryers, etc. They made good living wages. What do they do now? Mexico benefits from those jobs. China benefits from those jobs. And those products are built for peanuts - returned to this country for sale and the massive profits go back to the companies. Companies that pay little to no taxes.

For this country to make ANY kind of a comeback - those jobs MUST come back to the United States (thanks Bill Clinton). Without the jobs - we are doomed. It is easy to say "Well, we have to become more "technology based"" Right. Where are all those computers we use right now built? China. Apple, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, et al. Thanks Bill Clinton.

The only people who benefited from NAFTA were politicians and corporations.

I think most people don't hire people with college degrees just because they have degrees, though a degree is sometimes very helpful to get an interview. Smart business people hire people with the attitude, skill set, work ethic, vision, and character to do a specific job. Too many college graduates don't have many or any of those traits.

For reasons too complicated to go into here, I have more education hours than some with multiple master's degrees, but I technically don't have a degree myself. But for most of my life I have held jobs that technically required a degree because I had a skill set and track record that made me valuable, so the credentials requirements were waived.

On the other hand, when I have been in a position to hire, fire, and supervise, I have had to let go college graduates that simply could not or would not do the job I needed them to do.

It is government excessive spending, oppressive regulation, and excessive taxes to cover more and more excessive spending that has destroyed our manufacturing base and driven so many good jobs overseas as well as created a stagnant economy at home. We can reverse that and make it attractive and profitable for commerce and industry to bring those jobs home again and start building, expanding, and growing again if we just have the will to demand that.

But meanwhile those having trouble finding work can blame an overreaching, bloated, self serving anti-business authoritarian government for that. Technology is not to blame.

 

[g5000]

Something has been bothering me lately and has challenged my base political beliefs is capitalism's ability to deal with the long term future as a valid economic system for us to follow.

Capitalism is very dynamic.

Two centuries ago, most Americans were farmers. Today, only about 3 percent are. Has automation thrown all those other farmers out of work?

Nope. Their descendants are now building cars and computers and iPads and microwave ovens and R/C airplanes and real airplanes, and writing software and blogs and making YouTube videos for fun and profit, all of which weren't even imaginable two hundred years ago.

Innovation always provides the next employment opportunity and ever improving quality of life.

Won't be long now, we'll be building the Starship Enterprise.

 

[Foxfyre]

Something has been bothering me lately and has challenged my base political beliefs is capitalism's ability to deal with the long term future as a valid economic system for us to follow.

Capitalism is very dynamic.

Two centuries ago, most Americans were farmers. Today, only about 3 percent are. Has automation thrown all those other farmers out of work?

Nope. Their descendants are now building cars, which weren't even imaginable two hundred years ago.

Innovation always provides the next employment opportunity and ever improving quality of life.

Won't be long now, we'll be building the Starship Enterprise.

And oh my, how I wish I could live long enough to see that next advancement of human civilization. I probably won't but like you, I know it is out there just waiting for us to advance to the point we can embrace it.

 

[g5000]

Punch Magazine, 1899

 

[candycorn]

Thank you for your response. I think you missed the overall point here though – none of this claims that the government needs to tell people where to become productive or introduce new products. People will always be productive and create new markets as long as the reward is there to do so. The problem is that new markets used to require large employment to create and maintain.

New markets will still occur BUT they will no longer require large employment to do so. It is that reality that is going to come to a head.

Well I didn't address that specifically, but I still put faith in the human spirit to work it out. It is true that mechanization took millions off the farms and funneled them into the towns and cities, but they still managed to find jobs and feed their families. As people have more leisure, the more the ways to spend their money on leisure activities becomes big business. Perhaps we will have another cultural shift in which a one wage-earner marriage becomes fashionable again, and one parent will expect to stay home and take care of the kids and day to day operations of running a home which gives everybody more leisure to enjoy.

Unless you have an oppressive government that diminishes the entreprenourial spirit, people seem to figure it out as we go along.

Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I agree with this. What I am interested is what you think that might actually be or if you still think a capitalist type system is going to be the best we have. I don’t think it will be system that looks like capitalism tbh. I don’t see how capitalism in general can deal with an economy that does not employ most people. Further, I think it is going to be a hell of a turbulent time and cost many lives – exactly like it happened last time when the industrial revolution changed economies all over the planet.

Capitalism is an absolutely imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent, and sorry way to run any economy. But it is far better than ANYTHING else out there. I think it is our best shot to avoid the worst of turbulent times as we adapt to new ways to work, live, and engage in recreation and other pursuits.

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Well I didn't address that specifically, but I still put faith in the human spirit to work it out. It is true that mechanization took millions off the farms and funneled them into the towns and cities, but they still managed to find jobs and feed their families. As people have more leisure, the more the ways to spend their money on leisure activities becomes big business. Perhaps we will have another cultural shift in which a one wage-earner marriage becomes fashionable again, and one parent will expect to stay home and take care of the kids and day to day operations of running a home which gives everybody more leisure to enjoy.

Unless you have an oppressive government that diminishes the entreprenourial spirit, people seem to figure it out as we go along.

Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I agree with this. What I am interested is what you think that might actually be or if you still think a capitalist type system is going to be the best we have. I don’t think it will be system that looks like capitalism tbh. I don’t see how capitalism in general can deal with an economy that does not employ most people. Further, I think it is going to be a hell of a turbulent time and cost many lives – exactly like it happened last time when the industrial revolution changed economies all over the planet.

Capitalism is an absolutely imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent, and sorry way to run any economy. But it is far better than ANYTHING else out there. I think it is our best shot to avoid the worst of turbulent times as we adapt to new ways to work, live, and engage in recreation and other pursuits.

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

Damn you're dumb. Stick to all things lesbian. It apparently is all you know about.

 

[candycorn]

Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I agree with this. What I am interested is what you think that might actually be or if you still think a capitalist type system is going to be the best we have. I don’t think it will be system that looks like capitalism tbh. I don’t see how capitalism in general can deal with an economy that does not employ most people. Further, I think it is going to be a hell of a turbulent time and cost many lives – exactly like it happened last time when the industrial revolution changed economies all over the planet.

Capitalism is an absolutely imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent, and sorry way to run any economy. But it is far better than ANYTHING else out there. I think it is our best shot to avoid the worst of turbulent times as we adapt to new ways to work, live, and engage in recreation and other pursuits.

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

Damn you're dumb. Stick to all things lesbian. It apparently is all you know about.

Takes one to know one I suppose.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Capitalism is an absolutely imperfect, unpredictable, inconsistent, and sorry way to run any economy. But it is far better than ANYTHING else out there. I think it is our best shot to avoid the worst of turbulent times as we adapt to new ways to work, live, and engage in recreation and other pursuits.

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

Damn you're dumb. Stick to all things lesbian. It apparently is all you know about.

Takes one to know one I suppose.

Sweetheart - I was BORN a lesbian!! There is no one on this earth who loves women more than me!!

 

[Katzndogz]

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Nope. We will cease to exist.

It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.

Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.

Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.

All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.

Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.

While I am pretty darn sure that fewer than 6 or 7% of workers are earning minimum wage, shorter hours and reduced incomes is the result of the current administration's policies. And it is true that more people go to college, but it is also true, IMO, that fewer educated people with an understanding of what makes the world work effectively for the most people are being graduated.

But that is hardly the fault of technology or lack of possibilities and opportunity. If we would unencumber ourselves from the radical destructive progressive policies that have created the current economy, I have every confidence that the human spirit will go right back to solving problems and figuring out new ways to do things and make a living.

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%. This is down from 45% 15 years ago and 67% 30 years ago. Additionally, the percentage of "underemployed" graduates has risen 71% during that time period. Profits at Universities have risen 500% over the same time period. I will look up the study and post it - as soon as I can.

My Wife has a MSN (Nursing) and has worked in the field for 35 years. Right now, new graduates are having one hell of a time finding work as Nurse Practitioners and are working as RNs. Underemployed.

My Cousin's kids (graduated with degrees in Engineering) are making great money, on the other hand. Bottom line? Choose your major carefully.

The problem lies with those who probably should never be in College in the first place. Those who can't find apprentice programs (Electrician, Carpenter, Truck Driver, etc) are in deep trouble. Those guys USED to work in manufacturing - and making good money. They built automobiles, Washers, dryers, etc. They made good living wages. What do they do now? Mexico benefits from those jobs. China benefits from those jobs. And those products are built for peanuts - returned to this country for sale and the massive profits go back to the companies. Companies that pay little to no taxes.

For this country to make ANY kind of a comeback - those jobs MUST come back to the United States (thanks Bill Clinton). Without the jobs - we are doomed. It is easy to say "Well, we have to become more "technology based"" Right. Where are all those computers we use right now built? China. Apple, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, et al. Thanks Bill Clinton.

The only people who benefited from NAFTA were politicians and corporations.

If you want those jobs to come back to the United States you will have to get rid of the oppressive regulations that caused them to leave.

 

[candycorn]

Nope. Capitalism turned this wild country into the envy of every country on the planet. That is, until Barry arrived. If we allow business to work again - we will jump right back on top. But not until we rid ourselves of those like Obama.

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

Damn you're dumb. Stick to all things lesbian. It apparently is all you know about.

Takes one to know one I suppose.

Sweetheart - I was BORN a lesbian!! There is no one on this earth who loves women more than me!!

Or loves being a woman apparently....tell Bruce I said hi next time you see it at the clinic.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part? But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.

Yes by all means lets elect more brain surgeons like George W Bush who looks into the eyes of the enemy, answers to a "higher father", vetoes research, denies science exists, to avoid the "progressive oppression".

Dumbass.

Damn you're dumb. Stick to all things lesbian. It apparently is all you know about.

Takes one to know one I suppose.

Sweetheart - I was BORN a lesbian!! There is no one on this earth who loves women more than me!!

Or loves being a woman apparently....tell Bruce I said hi next time you see it at the clinic.

See? you make my point in it's entirety. A decent looking white guy (Jenner) decides to turn himself into one ugly ass woman and you folks are Okay with it. What is it with you perverts? For the love of god, give us some decent looking dykes for a change, will you?

 

[RandallFlagg]

Nope. We will cease to exist.

It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.

Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.

Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.

All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.

Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.

While I am pretty darn sure that fewer than 6 or 7% of workers are earning minimum wage, shorter hours and reduced incomes is the result of the current administration's policies. And it is true that more people go to college, but it is also true, IMO, that fewer educated people with an understanding of what makes the world work effectively for the most people are being graduated.

But that is hardly the fault of technology or lack of possibilities and opportunity. If we would unencumber ourselves from the radical destructive progressive policies that have created the current economy, I have every confidence that the human spirit will go right back to solving problems and figuring out new ways to do things and make a living.

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%. This is down from 45% 15 years ago and 67% 30 years ago. Additionally, the percentage of "underemployed" graduates has risen 71% during that time period. Profits at Universities have risen 500% over the same time period. I will look up the study and post it - as soon as I can.

My Wife has a MSN (Nursing) and has worked in the field for 35 years. Right now, new graduates are having one hell of a time finding work as Nurse Practitioners and are working as RNs. Underemployed.

My Cousin's kids (graduated with degrees in Engineering) are making great money, on the other hand. Bottom line? Choose your major carefully.

The problem lies with those who probably should never be in College in the first place. Those who can't find apprentice programs (Electrician, Carpenter, Truck Driver, etc) are in deep trouble. Those guys USED to work in manufacturing - and making good money. They built automobiles, Washers, dryers, etc. They made good living wages. What do they do now? Mexico benefits from those jobs. China benefits from those jobs. And those products are built for peanuts - returned to this country for sale and the massive profits go back to the companies. Companies that pay little to no taxes.

For this country to make ANY kind of a comeback - those jobs MUST come back to the United States (thanks Bill Clinton). Without the jobs - we are doomed. It is easy to say "Well, we have to become more "technology based"" Right. Where are all those computers we use right now built? China. Apple, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, et al. Thanks Bill Clinton.

The only people who benefited from NAFTA were politicians and corporations.

If you want those jobs to come back to the United States you will have to get rid of the oppressive regulations that caused them to leave.

Couldn't agree more. Since that clown took over - he has added an estimated 200,000 new regulations that affect business directly. No one is coming back here in the near future - until that asshole is gone and everything he has done has been reversed.

 

[Skylar]

Something has been bothering me lately and has challenged my base political beliefs is capitalism's ability to deal with the long term future as a valid economic system for us to follow. For those of you that do not know me I am an avid advocate for both free market capitalism in as pure a sense as we can reasonably attain and libertarian ideals. I do not believe government interference leads to desirable outcomes in most situations. There is a very long term problem that I face with this belief structure though.

The reality that we face today is that more and more sectors are being automated. Workers in these fields are becoming more and more productive as a result. This is, at its base, a very good thing as we are getting more out of our work we will have to do less of it. Hundreds of years ago work would have consumed virtually 100 percent of peoples time. Better tools, automation and increased productivity have allowed us a great deal of freedom in our lives where we are able to work far less and even have almost 40% of our population not working at all. This is a good thing.

The actual value of labor becomes a problem when you have so much productivity though. Increased productivity does not necessarily increase the value of labor even though that labor produces more goods. The increased productivity might do so IF you are not increasing the labor pool. As labor is a commodity like any other, steeply decreasing the number of jobs will devalue even skilled labor as everyone is pushed into those few remaining jobs. I think this is somewhat reflected in today's society as we see so many young people with degrees making very little - literally everyone needs a degree these day simply because there are so many people looking for those few jobs.


I think that we are coming to a tipping point though where labor is going to become so rare that a capitalist system can no longer be reasonably sustained. Automation has been occurring for a long time and it really has not been that big of an issue because there were always other areas that people could move into - more high tech jobs or entirely new industries created from such automation. That was all fine and well as long as the automated machines were simple and narrow. If you go to an assembly line where cars are manufactured you will see many machines that replaced many workers. Those machines, however, are a FAR cry from actual human labor. They are repetitive and can only do a single task though they do it well. There is no intelligence there.


Today, the automation is completely different. Machines are no longer simple minded or extremely narrow. Cars are already capable of being completely controlled by computers - the entire transportation industry essentially no longer needs people to move product. As soon as society catches up, you are going to see thousands of jobs gone from the transportation industry. Such vehicles do not sleep, require medical care breaks or 401K's and (most importantly) do not get in accidents. They are FAR cheaper and they are poised to replace the largest employment sector in the nation right now. Even pilots are essentially passengers on automated aircraft these days. Aircraft take off, fly to their destination and land without a single command from the pilot. And as a side bonus, they never crash into the side of a mountain when they get depressed.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a guy pitching Skynet.

So far these machines have been fairly narrow machines but the truth is that machines are even getting into skilled professional jobs like writing or doctors or even creative endeavors like composing music. They are expanding into those specialized sectors as well eliminating need for highly skilled labors as well. In the video below it talks about WATSON - a diagnosis machines that is superior to a doctor for basic diagnosis.

I think that it is a given that machines are going to take a huge chunk out of modern employment. The question that we face is how to deal with a population that is largely unemployed simply because there is little to no need for those jobs to exist. This is a given - we see it happening all around us. Can capitalism cope with the future or are we going to need to come up with something different?

Capitalism's primary advantages are 1) its efficient 2) it rewards innovation 3) it does these two things without centralization or central planning.

That's pretty much it. There's nothing in capitalism that guarantees a lifestyle, a standard of living, fairness, equity, education, liberty, safety, or any of what we would consider the benefits of a modern civilization.

The societies that tend to see the broadest benefit from what capitalism can bring to the table are those that channel what capitalism does remarkably well with the needs of the people working in it. Take....Canada. Their middle class is the wealthiest on earth. And they have state healthcare that saves each family about $4000 a year over what a similar American family gets. That's after we've measured middle class wealth to middle class wealth.

Yet their college graduation rates are slightly better than our own, teen pregnancy rates lower, their lifespans longer, their mortality and morbidity rates lower, they are considered a freer society by most metrics, they're frequently happier, there's more class mobility, less violence, less crime, lower infant mortality, marginally higher literacy rates, and infrastructure that's in better shape. Their banking industry is more trusted by its own people, and hasn't had the cycle of boom and bust that is typical of a more free market US style system.

And they're overwhelmingly capitalistic, while being closer to a meritocracy than we are.

They've mitigated the inherent instability of unrestrained capitalism, marginally lowering its efficiency, but vastly improving its ability to benefit society. And as the world becomes more mechanized and automated they're still able to keep standards of living relatively high, their middle class not only surviving but thriving.

I'd say there may be portions of their approach that would be useful here.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Something has been bothering me lately and has challenged my base political beliefs is capitalism's ability to deal with the long term future as a valid economic system for us to follow. For those of you that do not know me I am an avid advocate for both free market capitalism in as pure a sense as we can reasonably attain and libertarian ideals. I do not believe government interference leads to desirable outcomes in most situations. There is a very long term problem that I face with this belief structure though.

The reality that we face today is that more and more sectors are being automated. Workers in these fields are becoming more and more productive as a result. This is, at its base, a very good thing as we are getting more out of our work we will have to do less of it. Hundreds of years ago work would have consumed virtually 100 percent of peoples time. Better tools, automation and increased productivity have allowed us a great deal of freedom in our lives where we are able to work far less and even have almost 40% of our population not working at all. This is a good thing.

The actual value of labor becomes a problem when you have so much productivity though. Increased productivity does not necessarily increase the value of labor even though that labor produces more goods. The increased productivity might do so IF you are not increasing the labor pool. As labor is a commodity like any other, steeply decreasing the number of jobs will devalue even skilled labor as everyone is pushed into those few remaining jobs. I think this is somewhat reflected in today's society as we see so many young people with degrees making very little - literally everyone needs a degree these day simply because there are so many people looking for those few jobs.


I think that we are coming to a tipping point though where labor is going to become so rare that a capitalist system can no longer be reasonably sustained. Automation has been occurring for a long time and it really has not been that big of an issue because there were always other areas that people could move into - more high tech jobs or entirely new industries created from such automation. That was all fine and well as long as the automated machines were simple and narrow. If you go to an assembly line where cars are manufactured you will see many machines that replaced many workers. Those machines, however, are a FAR cry from actual human labor. They are repetitive and can only do a single task though they do it well. There is no intelligence there.


Today, the automation is completely different. Machines are no longer simple minded or extremely narrow. Cars are already capable of being completely controlled by computers - the entire transportation industry essentially no longer needs people to move product. As soon as society catches up, you are going to see thousands of jobs gone from the transportation industry. Such vehicles do not sleep, require medical care breaks or 401K's and (most importantly) do not get in accidents. They are FAR cheaper and they are poised to replace the largest employment sector in the nation right now. Even pilots are essentially passengers on automated aircraft these days. Aircraft take off, fly to their destination and land without a single command from the pilot. And as a side bonus, they never crash into the side of a mountain when they get depressed.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a guy pitching Skynet.

So far these machines have been fairly narrow machines but the truth is that machines are even getting into skilled professional jobs like writing or doctors or even creative endeavors like composing music. They are expanding into those specialized sectors as well eliminating need for highly skilled labors as well. In the video below it talks about WATSON - a diagnosis machines that is superior to a doctor for basic diagnosis.

I think that it is a given that machines are going to take a huge chunk out of modern employment. The question that we face is how to deal with a population that is largely unemployed simply because there is little to no need for those jobs to exist. This is a given - we see it happening all around us. Can capitalism cope with the future or are we going to need to come up with something different?

Capitalism's primary advantages are 1) its efficient 2) it rewards innovation 3) it does these two things without centralization or central planning.

That's pretty much it. There's nothing in capitalism that guarantees a lifestyle, a standard of living, fairness, equity, education, liberty, safety, or any of what we would consider the benefits of a modern civilization.

The societies that tend to see the broadest benefit from what capitalism can bring to the table are those that channel what capitalism does remarkably well with the needs of the people working in it. Take....Canada. Their middle class is the wealthiest on earth. And they have state healthcare that saves each family about $4000 a year over what a similar American family gets. That's after we've measured middle class wealth to middle class wealth.

Yet their college graduation rates are slightly better than our own, teen pregnancy rates lower, their lifespans longer, their mortality and morbidity rates lower, they are considered a freer society by most metrics, they're frequently happier, there's more class mobility, less violence, less crime, lower infant mortality, marginally higher literacy rates, and infrastructure that's in better shape. Their banking industry is more trusted by its own people, and hasn't had the cycle of boom and bust that is typical of a more free market US style system.

And they're overwhelmingly capitalistic, while being closer to a meritocracy than we are.

They've mitigated the inherent instability of unrestrained capitalism, marginally lowering its efficiency, but vastly improving its ability to benefit society. And as the world becomes more mechanized and automated they're still able to keep standards of living relatively high, their middle class not only surviving but thriving.

I'd say there may be portions of their approach that would be useful here.

And your second paragraph demonstrates why the left is so rabidly anti-capitalist. They expect to be "taken care" of and despise the idea of actually earning on their own. Their rule of thumb is "You didn't build that". Remember?

 

[Skylar]

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%.

I think you've gotten the stats reversed a bit. The UNemployment rate of new graduates is about 8.5%

For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is currently 8.5 percent (compared with 5.5 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 16.8 percent (compared with 9.6 percent in 2007).

The Class of 2014 The Weak Economy Is Idling Too Many Young Graduates Economic Policy Institute

An 83% unemployment rate for new grads is ludicrously off. By about an order of magnitude.

 

[Skylar]

And your second paragraph demonstrates why the left is so rabidly anti-capitalist. They expect to be "taken care" of and despise the idea of actually earning on their own. Their rule of thumb is "You didn't build that". Remember?

Not at all. I'm not saying any of what you just posted. I'm simply noting that there's nothing inherent to capitalism and a high standard of living. Or a fair society. Or equity. Or education. Or liberty. Or safety. Or any of the other benefits of a modern society that I've mentioned.

If you expect that the 'market' will produce these for you, you're looking in the wrong place. Capitalism is about efficiency, rewards for innovation and no need for centralization.

That's it.

Its no more a criticism of capitalism than saying that a screw driver is great for screw driving, but isn't the best tool for sanding a piece of wood. If you want to sand wood.....maybe sandpaper would be better.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%.

I think you've gotten the stats reversed a bit. The UNemployment rate of new graduates is about 8.5%

For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is currently 8.5 percent (compared with 5.5 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 16.8 percent (compared with 9.6 percent in 2007).

The Class of 2014 The Weak Economy Is Idling Too Many Young Graduates Economic Policy Institute

An 83% unemployment rate for new grads is ludicrously off. By about an order of magnitude.

I have spent the last couple of hours trying to find that study - haven't yet - but rest assured, I will. The 17% are BEING employed - according to that study - the rest are (apparently) sitting on their hands.

Point? We have far too many kids hanging out in College, rather than looking for trades. Not everyone in this country is destined for College - regardless of what the money hungry Universities say. Hell, when I graduated High School in the 60s - few kids went on to College - it was too damned hard to get in. Now? ANYONE who applies and qualifies financially, is admitted. What a waste.

 

[Skylar]

I recently read a study about higher education and the changes it has gone through over the last 30 years. Today, newly graduated University students are being employed at a rate of 17%.

I think you've gotten the stats reversed a bit. The UNemployment rate of new graduates is about 8.5%

For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is currently 8.5 percent (compared with 5.5 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 16.8 percent (compared with 9.6 percent in 2007).

The Class of 2014 The Weak Economy Is Idling Too Many Young Graduates Economic Policy Institute

An 83% unemployment rate for new grads is ludicrously off. By about an order of magnitude.

I have spent the last couple of hours trying to find that study - haven't yet - but rest assured, I will. The 17% are BEING employed - according to that study - the rest are (apparently) sitting on their hands.

That's not what the EPI says. Even taking into account under employment, we're still talking less than 17%. The literal opposite of the mysterious 'study'.

Point? We have far too many kids hanging out in College, rather than looking for trades. Not everyone in this country is destined for College - regardless of what the money hungry Universities say. Hell, when I graduated High School in the 60s - few kids went on to College - it was too damned hard to get in. Now? ANYONE who applies and qualifies financially, is admitted. What a waste.

About a third are college graduates. About 35 million have some college but no degree. The former isn't who you're talking about. And of the latter, most of those went to community college or some variant. CC's are designed to weed out those ready for college from those who aren't. And channel those who are to decent schools.

I agree about trade schools. Not everyone is suited for college. And trades can pay well. The problem is we're importing outsourced labor. From illegals who dominate the landscaping and construction industries to Disney's recent H1 visa fiasco where they had their current IT team teach the folks they brought in....before firing the US team......the value of a trade is diminished.