The Dumbing Down of America? No more SAT/ACT scores?

[Foxfyre]

Hmm...when I was in school we had take this test, I think it was called "CLEP", regardless of SAT scores.

Maybe CLEP wasn't it. It was for the college to see what kind of classes to put you in, or if you were college material at all.

CLEP is something different. That is when a college allows you to demonstrate competence in whatever subject, and if you do that you are awarded credit for that course without actually having to take it.

ACT and SAT measures a level of knowledge in various subjects that is then interpreted as ability and likelihood of being able to master the coursework and a higher percentage of graduation. Good universities who have to limit the number of students who enroll accept those who score highest on the ACT and/or SAT tests first. Or at least they used to.

 

[Foxfyre]

I read somewhere that GPA’s are as good an indicator of a students ability to succeed as standardized test scores. The problem with those tests are that there is an entire industry built around them. Students can take classes on passing them, get tutors,etc. That’s great unless you are student in a school without the resources to offer that or can’t afford it. That is why I prefer GPA along other measures such as writing skills etc.

(…do writing skills even exist anymore?)

That is probably true in many schools. But too many schools these days just pass the kids on through whether or not they do the coursework. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't have any problem with GPA being the gauge EXCEPT in the case where one student takes all really difficult subjects to prepare for college while others fly through 'bird' courses where they make A's but aren't learning nearly as much. The SAT and ACT scores are a better equalizer in that regard.

 

[Missourian]

That isn't the point though. When you lower the standard so that more of this or that group can qualify, it becomes grossly unfair to those who put in the effort to qualify according to the higher standards.

I am not qualified to play pro football (or any football actually) and if they lowered the standards so I could qualify, how pitiful would pro football be? I am very qualified to manage small businesses or supervise various kinds of occupations. But I am not qualified to be the CEO of Walmart or General Electric. If they lowered the standards for those jobs so that I could be considered, I can assure you those companies would suffer mightily as would all the people now working in them.

I am a proponent of excellence. All people should be taught what the criteria for success is and to utilize their aptitude to the fullest and strive for excellence. Anything else encourages incompetence, substandard performance, mediocrity and we all are diminished.

By screwing up the plan, the likely outcome is the abandonment of the plan.

The plan is intended to produce outcome x. If the result is instead outcome y, the plan is scrapped.

In our current iteration of reality, logic and rational discussion is all but useless. The only way to create change is to subvert agendas. Moves and counter moves. Workarounds.

That's my opinion.

 

[Foxfyre]

By screwing up the plan, the likely outcome is the abandonment of the plan.

The plan is intended to produce outcome x. If the result is instead outcome y, the plan is scrapped.

In our current iteration of reality, logic and rational discussion is all but useless. The only way to create change is to subvert agendas. Moves and counter moves. Workarounds.

That's my opinion.

I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, but would need more context to evaluate it.

 

[fncceo]

...and suddenly the value of a higher education drops

Is that a recent thing?

 

[James California]

~ The dumbing-down of society continues unabated ...

 

[The Duke]

CLEP is something different. That is when a college allows you to demonstrate competence in whatever subject, and if you do that you are awarded credit for that course without actually having to take it.

ACT and SAT measures a level of knowledge in various subjects that is then interpreted as ability and likelihood of being able to master the coursework and a higher percentage of graduation. Good universities who have to limit the number of students who enroll accept those who score highest on the ACT and/or SAT tests first. Or at least they used to.

Must have been ACT then. I know I only saw it the 1 time, and it wasn't SAT. Idk, it might have been some state-specific thing.

It was only new students that took it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Must have been ACT then. I know I only saw it the 1 time, and it wasn't SAT. Idk, it might have been some state-specific thing.

It was only new students that took it.

Hard to say. When I was in high school students could opt out of taking the ACT--I can't recall that any did--but otherwise I think it was given to everybody fairly early in our senior year. (That was a looooong time ago. ) Then some weeks later we got our scores and the students started receiving academic scholarship offers.

And of course those with the higher GPAs AND higher SAT scores got some really good offers. And for those who want to make this about racism, there weren't many black people in New Mexico back in those days but our two black students, both brilliant, both in the Honor Society, got two of the best scholarship offers as did many among our majority Hispanic students. I don't recall that the Anglo students had any advantage whatsoever there.

Of course that was back when the federal government and even the state government pretty much stayed out of the school systems at all levels and merit was something that was worked for and honored and rewarded.

 

[The Duke]

Hard to say. When I was in high school students could opt out of taking the ACT--I can't recall that any did--but otherwise I think it was given to everybody fairly early in our senior year. (That was a looooong time ago. ) Then some weeks later we got our scores and the students started receiving academic scholarship offers.

And of course those with the higher GPAs AND higher SAT scores got some really good offers. And for those who want to make this about racism, there weren't many black people in New Mexico back in those days but our two black students, both brilliant, both in the Honor Society, got two of the best scholarship offers as did many among our majority Hispanic students. I don't recall that the Anglo students had any advantage whatsoever there.

Of course that was back when the federal government and even the state government pretty much stayed out of the school systems at all levels and merit was something that was worked for and honored and rewarded.

Idk, this was at college and there was no warning we had to take this test prior.

It was like "If you want to go to school here, you have to take this test."

 

[Coyote]

That is probably true in many schools. But too many schools these days just pass the kids on through whether or not they do the coursework. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't have any problem with GPA being the gauge EXCEPT in the case where one student takes all really difficult subjects to prepare for college while others fly through 'bird' courses where they make A's but aren't learning nearly as much. The SAT and ACT scores are a better equalizer in that regard.

I’m not so sure. Another article I read (and I’ll have to find it again) looked at students in a state college that automatically accepted the top X % of every highschool. What they found was if those who came the poorer highschool and were less academically prepared we’re given support, tutoring etc their first year they quickly caught up and were indistinguishable from the other students.

Not all schools can offer the same opportunities for their students such the opportunity to take advanced college placement courses for example. What I think is shown by this is that being in the top percent is indicative of hard work and good habits which in turn predict success regardless of the quality of the school. They are able to overcome any deficiencies with a little extra help in the beginning. So I don’t see that as dumbing down.

This is another interesting article that points to GPA as a better indicator of success than test scores:

Itâs GPAs Not Standardized Tests That Predict College Success

A new study has overturned the conventional wisdom that standardized tests are an objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

www.forbes.com

 

[James California]

~ The more I read, see and hear the more convinced I am that this is indeed the dumbest time to be alive on planet earth ...

 

[Foxfyre]

I’m not so sure. Another article I read (and I’ll have to find it again) looked at students in a state college that automatically accepted the top X % of every highschool. What they found was if those who came the poorer highschool and were less academically prepared we’re given support, tutoring etc their first year they quickly caught up and were indistinguishable from the other students.

Not all schools can offer the same opportunities for their students such the opportunity to take advanced college placement courses for example. What I think is shown by this is that being in the top percent is indicative of hard work and good habits which in turn predict success regardless of the quality of the school. They are able to overcome any deficiencies with a little extra help in the beginning. So I don’t see that as dumbing down.

This is another interesting article that points to GPA as a better indicator of success than test scores:

Itâs GPAs Not Standardized Tests That Predict College Success

A new study has overturned the conventional wisdom that standardized tests are an objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

www.forbes.com

That is interesting and maybe even relevant and pertinent. I don't care at all what criteria the universities use to judge whether a student merits admission, but do think lowering standards to achieve 'diversity' is counter productive for all.

It has been my experience that a black student earning a 3.85 GPA in high school is likely to do pretty darn well on an ACT or SAT exam as will any other student. Those who cheat to get scores, whether GPA or ACT/SAT likely aren't going to do as well in whatever they do as will those who honestly earn their achievements along with a solid work ethic.

Then again correlation is not always a reliable component. Before we closed our business I interviewed high school graduates who claimed 3.0 or higher GPA, but turned out to be wholly inadequate to learn basic skills in a job and almost illiterate when it came to writing a simple report. The D and C student who took more advanced math, maybe a course in Shakespeare, and other more challenging coursework were far better equipped to learn technical skills necessary to the job.

It isn't the method of choice that bothers me, but eliminating a method for no other reason than not enough of the 'right' people are qualifying. To eliminate excellence in favor of 'diversity' hurts and diminishes everybody.

 

[Coyote]

That is interesting and maybe even relevant and pertinent. I don't care at all what criteria the universities use to judge whether a student merits admission, but do think lowering standards to achieve 'diversity' is counter productive for all.

It has been my experience that a black student earning a 3.85 GPA in high school is likely to do pretty darn well on an ACT or SAT exam as will any other student. Those who cheat to get scores, whether GPA or ACT/SAT likely aren't going to do as well in whatever they do as will those who honestly earn their achievements along with a solid work ethic.

Then again correlation is not always a reliable component. Before we closed our business I interviewed high school graduates who claimed 3.0 or higher GPA, but turned out to be wholly inadequate to learn basic skills in a job and almost illiterate when it came to writing a simple report. The D and C student who took more advanced math, maybe a course in Shakespeare, and other more challenging coursework were far better equipped to learn technical skills necessary to the job.

It isn't the method of choice that bothers me, but eliminating a method for no other reason than not enough of the 'right' people are qualifying. To eliminate excellence in favor of 'diversity' hurts and diminishes everybody.

I’m not so sure that eliminating standardized tests IS eliminating excellence, I think that remains to be seen. The goal of any admissions process is largely to select students most likely to succeed right? Then we should be looking at outcomes and graduation rates and if GPA is a better predictor, why have standardized tests?

I’ve never liked the concept of standardized tests because they really aren’t the great equalizer anymore when there is an entire built around it that isn’t accessible to less priveleged kids just as advanced placement courses aren’t. If you want diversity (which I support) GPA’s might be the better way to go and you aren’t feeding commercial testing industry in the process.

But in all honesty, regardless of the above standards do seem to be lowered in terms of things like basic writing skills for example

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I hate to belabor the obvious here, folks, but those who cry the most about S.A.T.s are inevitably those who did not score well on them.

Oh, who am I kidding? I don't hate pointing that out at all!