The Dumbest Generation

[psikeyhackr]

Do children have a problem with both quality and quantity of information/infodrek today?

Children have to organize information and concepts in their minds to create a paradigm of reality. But how can they sort out how much of the information they get is drek or not? And it is coming at them faster than when we were kids. And the speed just keeps increasing.

I did some Google searches the other day.

+"artificial intelligence" About 10,800,000 results (0.30 seconds)

+"von neumann machine" About 73,400 results (0.16 seconds)

+"von neumann architecture" About 418,000 results (0.33 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann architecture" About 55,500 results (0.38 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann machine" About 38,000 results (0.29 seconds)

21 times as much BS as good information.

Nearly all of our computers are von Neumann machines but Artificial Intelligence doesn't really exist though it appears in movies from 2001: A Space Odyssey to Terminator to Wall-E. But you will have a hard time finding a good explanation of how a von Neumann machine works. So how can we expect kids to not be confused and seem DUMB?

psik

 

[Annie]

My wife works with special needs children in middle school. They are mandated to have those children pass the same tests as the non-special needs children which is completely asinine. That either dumbs down the tests or forces the numbers to be fudged.

That's a tough one. In my opinion, after a professional analysis that a child has "special needs," there should be special schools for them, apart from the din of 'normal' school curriculum AND 'normal' kid behavior. But that costs money, folks.

The alternative is special classes within the school system, but that's the way it used to be in the 50's and before, and the practice was deemed too humiliating for kids to be in the "B" class and not in the "A" class. So what's the solution? Kids especially today can never, ever be told they are losers. Only winners. Even on the soccer field.

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

Few are in a self-contained classroom, most are 'inclusion' in most, if not all subjects. Now the assumption is that the teachers, aware of their special needs, through their IEP's, will be able to accommodate their learning needs, along with the rest of the class. Often an aid is present, especially when there are multiple inclusion students. He/she are supposed to take notes to help the inclusion kids later, in their resource period. For some this is great, for others, not so much.

Sort of reminds me of the food stamps discussion: "Hey, we're 'letting you in the regular location, all you need to do is ....."

 

[MaggieMae]

My wife works with special needs children in middle school. They are mandated to have those children pass the same tests as the non-special needs children which is completely asinine. That either dumbs down the tests or forces the numbers to be fudged.

That's a tough one. In my opinion, after a professional analysis that a child has "special needs," there should be special schools for them, apart from the din of 'normal' school curriculum AND 'normal' kid behavior. But that costs money, folks.

The alternative is special classes within the school system, but that's the way it used to be in the 50's and before, and the practice was deemed too humiliating for kids to be in the "B" class and not in the "A" class. So what's the solution? Kids especially today can never, ever be told they are losers. Only winners. Even on the soccer field.

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

So are you saying that a special needs child (developmentally disabled) who can only learn at first grade level might be taking the same test as at the third (or higher) level maybe because the child is the same age as those in the higher levels? That's absurd.

What I was talking about regarding "A" and "B" classes referred to slower learners only. In high school, a lot of kids don't have advanced mathematical comprehensive skills (I was one of them), and did poorly in subjects like Algebra. But we were offered a choice of either going into a "B" class level of learning where all the course subjects were slower, or changing what they called the "college curriculum" to a "commerical curriculum" which included math, just not the heavy stuff, but still included all the other subjects like English, Civics, History at the "A" level. At the time, of course, that was the parents' decision. I happened to excel in English but not Math, so I switched majors but still had the benefit of keeping up with the "A" learning students for everything else. Some kids were slow learners at all subjects, and their parents would opt to put them into "B" in order to maintain their grades. Otherwise, they would have failed and kept back a year if put in with the "A" group.

 

[MaggieMae]

Do children have a problem with both quality and quantity of information/infodrek today?

Children have to organize information and concepts in their minds to create a paradigm of reality. But how can they sort out how much of the information they get is drek or not? And it is coming at them faster than when we were kids. And the speed just keeps increasing.

I did some Google searches the other day.

+"artificial intelligence" About 10,800,000 results (0.30 seconds)

+"von neumann machine" About 73,400 results (0.16 seconds)

+"von neumann architecture" About 418,000 results (0.33 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann architecture" About 55,500 results (0.38 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann machine" About 38,000 results (0.29 seconds)

21 times as much BS as good information.

Nearly all of our computers are von Neumann machines but Artificial Intelligence doesn't really exist though it appears in movies from 2001: A Space Odyssey to Terminator to Wall-E. But you will have a hard time finding a good explanation of how a von Neumann machine works. So how can we expect kids to not be confused and seem DUMB?

psik

I think you're missing the point here. We're talking about the lag in just basic Readin' Ritin' & Rithmetic!

 

[Wry Catcher]

Do children have a problem with both quality and quantity of information/infodrek today?

Children have to organize information and concepts in their minds to create a paradigm of reality. But how can they sort out how much of the information they get is drek or not? And it is coming at them faster than when we were kids. And the speed just keeps increasing.

I did some Google searches the other day.

+"artificial intelligence" About 10,800,000 results (0.30 seconds)

+"von neumann machine" About 73,400 results (0.16 seconds)

+"von neumann architecture" About 418,000 results (0.33 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann architecture" About 55,500 results (0.38 seconds)

+"artificial intelligence" +"von neumann machine" About 38,000 results (0.29 seconds)

21 times as much BS as good information.

Nearly all of our computers are von Neumann machines but Artificial Intelligence doesn't really exist though it appears in movies from 2001: A Space Odyssey to Terminator to Wall-E. But you will have a hard time finding a good explanation of how a von Neumann machine works. So how can we expect kids to not be confused and seem DUMB?

psik

I think you're missing the point here. We're talking about the lag in just basic Readin' Ritin' & Rithmetic!

Exactly. Reading and reading comprehension, writing clearly, computing both numbers and ideas, and the ability to speak properly and in public.
Teaching kids to be mentors and not bullies, giving 5th graders some responsibility to teach second graders and teaching the 5th graders how to teach - it may make them more effective parents in the future.
Teaching health, including nutrition and exercise and making extra-curricular activities no longer extra; making clubs (sports, music, art, chess, dance, drama, etc.) part of the educational system and manditory. Each child given the opportunity to FREELY choose what club they would like to join (how to remove peer pressure from such a choice is a problem).
Kids today are taught essentially the same way I was, my dad was and my kids were, the status quo doesn't work well and change is necessary.
Kids are born with a natural curiousity, why do we extinguish it?

 

[Annie]

That's a tough one. In my opinion, after a professional analysis that a child has "special needs," there should be special schools for them, apart from the din of 'normal' school curriculum AND 'normal' kid behavior. But that costs money, folks.

The alternative is special classes within the school system, but that's the way it used to be in the 50's and before, and the practice was deemed too humiliating for kids to be in the "B" class and not in the "A" class. So what's the solution? Kids especially today can never, ever be told they are losers. Only winners. Even on the soccer field.

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

So are you saying that a special needs child (developmentally disabled) who can only learn at first grade level might be taking the same test as at the third (or higher) level maybe because the child is the same age as those in the higher levels? That's absurd.

What I was talking about regarding "A" and "B" classes referred to slower learners only. In high school, a lot of kids don't have advanced mathematical comprehensive skills (I was one of them), and did poorly in subjects like Algebra. But we were offered a choice of either going into a "B" class level of learning where all the course subjects were slower, or changing what they called the "college curriculum" to a "commerical curriculum" which included math, just not the heavy stuff, but still included all the other subjects like English, Civics, History at the "A" level. At the time, of course, that was the parents' decision. I happened to excel in English but not Math, so I switched majors but still had the benefit of keeping up with the "A" learning students for everything else. Some kids were slow learners at all subjects, and their parents would opt to put them into "B" in order to maintain their grades. Otherwise, they would have failed and kept back a year if put in with the "A" group.

Regarding the bolded, if the child is in public school, he/she will be given the grade appropriate test, regardless of ability. Even if on a respirator, (unless they really have modified the NCLB law and I've missed it.) So, the child may be given reasonable accommodations regarding time limits or having someone 'bubble in' the answers, but that is it. If they cannot answer, say they are rarely conscious or terribly disabled some way, the district is out of luck.

 

[blu]

the dumbest generation thanks to the worst parents

 

[psikeyhackr]

I think you're missing the point here. We're talking about the lag in just basic Readin' Ritin' & Rithmetic!

Exactly. Reading and reading comprehension, writing clearly, computing both numbers and ideas, and the ability to speak properly and in public.
Teaching kids to be mentors and not bullies, giving 5th graders some responsibility to teach second graders and teaching the 5th graders how to teach - it may make them more effective parents in the future.

Our educational system tries to tell kids what to be interested in and it is mostly boring garbage. Not much need to teach reading if the reading material sucks the kid in.

If it contains information and clues to more then the teachers become redundant at best.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU[/ame]

When I was in grade school one good science fiction book had more information than a months worth of EDUCATION. School is over rated. People are constantly trying to fix an inherently defective system. The changes necessary to fix it would be so traumatic they would probably break it and most of the traditionalists would resist.

These cheap computers which most people don't comprehend the power of are the potential solution for the problem but I think most educators want to use technology to prop up their traditional methods not use them to develop entirely new methods.

Even this site:

Homeschooling

makes no mention of netbooks. But they are more powerful than 1980 mainframes.

The question is what software and what database of information.

I thought Catcher in the Rye was boring drivel in the 60s and I was talking to a high school kid that had to read it a few years ago. This is better than that and only 7 years newer.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33660/33660-h/33660-h.htm

psik

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The same way you need to reconsider "Change" when thinking about Obama, that is, you're incorrect to suppose that he meant a change for the better, you need to alter you definition of success and failure when evaluating the American educational system

I consider this a huge success of the Progressive Educational system. You see, the Progressive educational system is designed to disconnect students from their root, from their ability to think critically, and ultimately from their ability to think at all.

The UFT is crying tears of joy that they are breeding so many future Democrat wards of the state.

It's a rousing success story

 

[Richard O. Clay]

Change for change sake has no vailidation . The law of physic states for ever action there is an opposite reaction . No one in their right mind can believe that we have any inherit rights to anything . In most cases a baby must me popped on the bottom to make it take its' first breath .

 

[chanel]

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

So are you saying that a special needs child (developmentally disabled) who can only learn at first grade level might be taking the same test as at the third (or higher) level maybe because the child is the same age as those in the higher levels? That's absurd.

What I was talking about regarding "A" and "B" classes referred to slower learners only. In high school, a lot of kids don't have advanced mathematical comprehensive skills (I was one of them), and did poorly in subjects like Algebra. But we were offered a choice of either going into a "B" class level of learning where all the course subjects were slower, or changing what they called the "college curriculum" to a "commerical curriculum" which included math, just not the heavy stuff, but still included all the other subjects like English, Civics, History at the "A" level. At the time, of course, that was the parents' decision. I happened to excel in English but not Math, so I switched majors but still had the benefit of keeping up with the "A" learning students for everything else. Some kids were slow learners at all subjects, and their parents would opt to put them into "B" in order to maintain their grades. Otherwise, they would have failed and kept back a year if put in with the "A" group.

Regarding the bolded, if the child is in public school, he/she will be given the grade appropriate test, regardless of ability. Even if on a respirator, (unless they really have modified the NCLB law and I've missed it.) So, the child may be given reasonable accommodations regarding time limits or having someone 'bubble in' the answers, but that is it. If they cannot answer, say they are rarely conscious or terribly disabled some way, the district is out of luck.

Yes, however now there are "alternative proficiency assessments" for the severely disabled (2%) where portfolios are compiled to see if the goals of the IEP are being met. It's a sham and depends solely on the presentation of the facilitator, not the portfolio of the students. Don't get me started on that...

NJ will soon be giving "exit exams" in every subject. A mainstreamed special ed student taking Physics must pass the same state exam as the regular ed kids or they will not get credit for the course. This should be interesting. I am anticipating 21 year old freshmen in the next few years.

 

[Douger]

The most dumb are the current generation of white haired right wingers.
The don't believe in science.
They believe everything from Fox news.
They depend on Social Security and Medicare yet want to vote for people who want to end Social Security and Medicare.

Dumb, dee dumb dumb.

Dumb.

They're referred to as murkinz.

 

[MaggieMae]

I think you're missing the point here. We're talking about the lag in just basic Readin' Ritin' & Rithmetic!

Exactly. Reading and reading comprehension, writing clearly, computing both numbers and ideas, and the ability to speak properly and in public.
Teaching kids to be mentors and not bullies, giving 5th graders some responsibility to teach second graders and teaching the 5th graders how to teach - it may make them more effective parents in the future.

Our educational system tries to tell kids what to be interested in and it is mostly boring garbage. Not much need to teach reading if the reading material sucks the kid in.

If it contains information and clues to more then the teachers become redundant at best.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU[/ame]

When I was in grade school one good science fiction book had more information than a months worth of EDUCATION. School is over rated. People are constantly trying to fix an inherently defective system. The changes necessary to fix it would be so traumatic they would probably break it and most of the traditionalists would resist.

These cheap computers which most people don't comprehend the power of are the potential solution for the problem but I think most educators want to use technology to prop up their traditional methods not use them to develop entirely new methods.

Even this site:

Homeschooling

makes no mention of netbooks. But they are more powerful than 1980 mainframes.

The question is what software and what database of information.

I thought Catcher in the Rye was boring drivel in the 60s and I was talking to a high school kid that had to read it a few years ago. This is better than that and only 7 years newer.

The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones.

psik

Well that's you, I guess. But your opinion hardly is representative of the millions of children who would remain completely in a fantasy world because they couldn't comprehend what the science fiction might imply. Kids need to first learn by ROTE, and at some point they "get it" and reading/writing becomes a learning tool. It's a fact that apparently you don't believe.

 

[MaggieMae]

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

So are you saying that a special needs child (developmentally disabled) who can only learn at first grade level might be taking the same test as at the third (or higher) level maybe because the child is the same age as those in the higher levels? That's absurd.

What I was talking about regarding "A" and "B" classes referred to slower learners only. In high school, a lot of kids don't have advanced mathematical comprehensive skills (I was one of them), and did poorly in subjects like Algebra. But we were offered a choice of either going into a "B" class level of learning where all the course subjects were slower, or changing what they called the "college curriculum" to a "commerical curriculum" which included math, just not the heavy stuff, but still included all the other subjects like English, Civics, History at the "A" level. At the time, of course, that was the parents' decision. I happened to excel in English but not Math, so I switched majors but still had the benefit of keeping up with the "A" learning students for everything else. Some kids were slow learners at all subjects, and their parents would opt to put them into "B" in order to maintain their grades. Otherwise, they would have failed and kept back a year if put in with the "A" group.

Regarding the bolded, if the child is in public school, he/she will be given the grade appropriate test, regardless of ability. Even if on a respirator, (unless they really have modified the NCLB law and I've missed it.) So, the child may be given reasonable accommodations regarding time limits or having someone 'bubble in' the answers, but that is it. If they cannot answer, say they are rarely conscious or terribly disabled some way, the district is out of luck.

That's unbelievable. Unless I'm not understanding the concept, it looks like borderline child abuse.

 

[MaggieMae]

The same way you need to reconsider "Change" when thinking about Obama, that is, you're incorrect to suppose that he meant a change for the better, you need to alter you definition of success and failure when evaluating the American educational system

I consider this a huge success of the Progressive Educational system. You see, the Progressive educational system is designed to disconnect students from their root, from their ability to think critically, and ultimately from their ability to think at all.

The UFT is crying tears of joy that they are breeding so many future Democrat wards of the state.

It's a rousing success story

Oh sure, it's all some grand conspiracy. What a crock. It couldn't possibly be as simple as public schools being totally overwhelmed by the ratio of teacher to student, and no amount of money is EVER allocated to attempt to fix the problem. Nah, that's just not reasonable, according to an extremist who sees a dark agenda to everything (no pun intended).

 

[editec]

The technology that was supposed to make young adults more astute, diversify their tastes, and improve their minds had the opposite effect.

According to recent reports from government agencies, foundations, survey firms, and scholarly institutions, most young people in the United States neither read literature (or fully know how), work reliably (just ask employers), visit cultural institutions (of any sort), nor vote (most can’t even understand a simple ballot). They cannot explain basic scientific methods, recount foundations of American history, or name any of their local political representatives. What do they happen to excel at is – each other. They spend unbelievable amounts of time electronically passing stories, pictures, tunes, and texts back and forth, savoring the thrill of peer attention and dwelling in a world of puerile banter and coarse images.

Dumbest Generation Home

Comments?

I don't 6hink these younger generations are any dumber than we were.

They can just show us how dumb they are in ways we never could, thanks to the internet.

I have complete confidence as my generation shuffles off our mortal coils, the generations that follow will make all new mistakes that will piss off the younger generations that are following them.

Societies change, human nature doesn't.

 

[MaggieMae]

Change for change sake has no vailidation . The law of physic states for ever action there is an opposite reaction . No one in their right mind can believe that we have any inherit rights to anything . In most cases a baby must me popped on the bottom to make it take its' first breath .

In the lower animal species, maybe. But humans were provided with brains having the capability of rational thought, not just instinct. Your theory would actually end at the moment of birth, because from that point on that human baby will be influenced all its life by its environment, as that changes over time. The veil of ignorance stops at birth.

 

[MaggieMae]

The technology that was supposed to make young adults more astute, diversify their tastes, and improve their minds had the opposite effect.

According to recent reports from government agencies, foundations, survey firms, and scholarly institutions, most young people in the United States neither read literature (or fully know how), work reliably (just ask employers), visit cultural institutions (of any sort), nor vote (most can’t even understand a simple ballot). They cannot explain basic scientific methods, recount foundations of American history, or name any of their local political representatives. What do they happen to excel at is – each other. They spend unbelievable amounts of time electronically passing stories, pictures, tunes, and texts back and forth, savoring the thrill of peer attention and dwelling in a world of puerile banter and coarse images.

Dumbest Generation Home

Comments?

I don't 6hink these younger generations are any dumber than we were.

They can just show us how dumb they are in ways we never could, thanks to the internet.

I have complete confidence as my generation shuffles off our mortal coils, the generations that follow will make all new mistakes that will piss off the younger generations that are following them.

Societies change, human nature doesn't.

So how do you erase a generation with a character flaw that has it labeled the ME Generation so that they don't pass that along to their offspring?

 

[jeffrockit]

That's a tough one. In my opinion, after a professional analysis that a child has "special needs," there should be special schools for them, apart from the din of 'normal' school curriculum AND 'normal' kid behavior. But that costs money, folks.

The alternative is special classes within the school system, but that's the way it used to be in the 50's and before, and the practice was deemed too humiliating for kids to be in the "B" class and not in the "A" class. So what's the solution? Kids especially today can never, ever be told they are losers. Only winners. Even on the soccer field.

These children are in their own class. Some of them are on a 1st grade level and some are very low functioning. I don't think that any of them have concerns of humiliation. They are definitely not losers and I think the competition thing is not really relevant to them.
I don't agree with the PC logic (?) on winning and losing, keeping score and etc.

The other problem is with some of the parents. They just want the school to take care of their children and not be hassled with any of the problems that are part of the special needs child.

Few are in a self-contained classroom, most are 'inclusion' in most, if not all subjects. Now the assumption is that the teachers, aware of their special needs, through their IEP's, will be able to accommodate their learning needs, along with the rest of the class. Often an aid is present, especially when there are multiple inclusion students. He/she are supposed to take notes to help the inclusion kids later, in their resource period. For some this is great, for others, not so much.

Sort of reminds me of the food stamps discussion: "Hey, we're 'letting you in the regular location, all you need to do is ....."

You obviously are not aware of the classes I am referring to. Some of these children are non verbal, some are what would have been labeled "retarded" 20 years ago and one has a degenerative brain disease. Some have deep mental problems. No way they can even function in a regular classroom with or without an aid. My point is that the teachers are mandated that the students pass the CRT testing which is not possible with students with these issues.

 

[squeeze berry]

did not have time to read all the posts.

IMO the kids are not any dumber. they learn some advanced stuff earlier.

the problem is that.

1. everyone is expected to go to a 4 year college. Too much pressure on the kids, parents and teachers to get to university.

2. related to above. Not enough trade schools. only 25 % ever get a 4 year degree

3. learned helplessness. most kids are used to having parents and teachers do too much for them.

4. excuses for failure. It's never the kids fault. it's environment, poor diet, racist teachers etc.

5. unrealistic parents. an apple doesn't fall far from the tree. the parents that are lazy and stupid should expect similar results from their kids.