The dieity of christ

[tipofthespear]

THE DIEITY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

An excerpt from a Bible Study found on

www. jesusalonesaves.webs.com/deityofchrist.htm -

We are living in times in which an increasing number of theologians are rejecting the doctrines on the Holy Trinity and, particularly, the deity and eternal self-existence of the Lord Jesus. This problem is not only the product of modern theological thinking but emanates from age-old Christological errors. We will have to go back very far in church history to determine the origins of these doctrinal deficiencies and wrong teachings.
The Trinity

In the Old Testament there are two primary names used for God: Yahweh and Elohim. Each has a special significance. Elohim is the first name to be used, and is mentioned well over two thousand times. Though the name Yahweh (the eternal I AM) is paramount, there is a special significance about the name Elohim that God does not want us to miss. Dr. Richard Bennett (1998:45-46) explains the meaning of this name as follows: “In the English language we talk in the plural if we wish to speak of more than one. And we use the singular if we refer to just one. But the Hebrew language can be even more precise, for it uses the dual when referring to two and then the plural when referring to more than two.

The distinction between dual and plural (between ‘two’ and ‘three or more&#8217 is very significant in the first name in the Bible that is used for God. ‘Elohim’ is in the plural. However, in another clear statement about God the Bible also says: ‘The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). So in the very first verse in the Bible, which is God’s revelation of Himself to man, we are intro¬duced to a three-in-one and a one-in-three concept of God. ‘In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heaven and the earth’ (Gen. 1:1). This tri-unity has sometimes been called the Trinity.”

The term ‘one’ which is used in Deuteronomy 6:4 to describe the Lord (Yahweh) our God (Elohim), is echad in Hebrew, which refers to a composite unity as opposed to an absolute unity. God also uses the term echad to refer to the unification of the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah to become one nation (Ezek. 37:22). This is a com¬po¬site unity. The fact that ‘Elohim’ refers to one God in its singular form and to more than two in its plural form is clearly dem¬on¬strated by the personal pronouns used for God. Elohim said about the creation of humans: “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness… So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them” (Gen. 1:26-27). The Triune God can indeed say: “Let Us make man,” and then, “…male and female created He them” (emphasis added).

Before His incarnation as Son of God, Jesus was, and still is, the self-existent and eternal God. The apostle John refers to Him as the Logos, or the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (Jn. 1:1). He was with Elohim and He Himself was Elohim. The third Person is the Spirit of Elohim (Gen. 1:2). He is “the eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) who also has an eternal self-existence as a Person in the Godhead.

The three co-eternal, co-equal, and co-self-existent Persons in the Godhead are described as follows by the apostle John in his first Epistle: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 Jn. 5:7). All three Persons may be described and addressed as Lord (Heb. Yahweh; Gr. Kurios) and God (Heb. Elohim; Gr. Theos). Paul addressed the incarnate Lord on the road to

Damascus: “Who are You, Lord [Yahweh]? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting” (Acts 9:5). In Romans 9:5 Paul says of Him: “Christ… is over all, the eternally blessed God [Elohim].” These titles apply to Him in all periods of His timeless existence.
People who do not believe that the title Lord, or Yahweh (the eternal I AM), applies to Jesus cannot have their sins forgiven. He said to the unbelieving Jewish leaders: “If you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins… When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you shall know that I am… Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!” (Jn. 8:24,28,58 MKJV). The Amplified Bible renders John 8:58 as follows, including the cross-reference to Exodus 3 “Jesus replied, I assure you, I most solemnly tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exod. 3:14].” He was not only a human prophet but also God in a human body.

The creative work, pre-eminence and superiority of Christ

We need to seriously and thoroughly reflect on the deity of Jesus Christ and on his pre-eminence over all things. That can be done by objectively and honestly studying the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit: “For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God” (1 Cor. 2:10 NKJV). Paul made a great revelation of Jesus Christ when he said: “He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born over all creation. For by him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may have the pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in him all the fullness should dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to himself – by him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of his cross” (Col. 1:15-20 NKJV). In this section, seven unique characteristics pertaining to the creative work, pre-eminence and supremacy of Christ are mentioned. He is:

1. The image of God. He revealed God to humanity, as all who have seen Him have seen the Father (Jn. 14:9). When we hear the glorious gospel of the saving grace of the Lord Jesus the image of God shines on us (2 Cor. 4:4).


JESUS IS GOD

(excerpt from: Jesus is God)

Jesus is God – What does the Bible say about Jesus’ deity?
Does the Bible, which is the earliest and most historically reliable source, actually say Jesus is God? What does it tell us about Jesus and His identity?

Let’s take a brief look at a few of the many passages that clearly and consistently answer that question, straight from the pages of Scripture. We’ll begin by going back an additional 700 years before the life of Christ, to the Old Testament book of Isaiah.
Jesus is God – Prophecies

• Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament

Isaiah 7 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1

“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”

• This Messiah would be born a human son, but have a higher nature
Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ.

• A couple hundred years later, but still more than half a millennium before Jesus walked the earth, more was predicted about the Messiah’s divine nature
Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.

Jesus is God – His Earthly Ministry

• The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
Matthew 2 “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”

Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.

• Jesus accepted worship from His disciples

Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”

In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh.

• Jesus’ claim about Himself

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

• Another of Jesus’ claims of deity

John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”

It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God!

• Thomas’ response to the resurrected Jesus

John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"

This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.

 

[Bezukhov]

Oh father high in heaven -- smile down upon your son
whose busy with his money games -- his women and his gun.

Oh Jesus save me!

And the unsung Western hero killed an Indian or three
and made his name in Hollywood
to set the white man free.

Oh Jesus save me!

If Jesus saves -- well, He'd better save Himself
from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death.

Oh Jesus save me!

I saw him in the city and on the mountains of the moon --
His cross was rather bloody --
He could hardly roll His stone.

Oh Jesus save me!

-"Hymn 43"-Ian Anderson

 

[t_polkow]

 

[t_polkow]

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.



Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.

6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

7) "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

8) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:

9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.

12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The cock shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the cock crowed after the first denial, not the third.

13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor." This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.

14) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also ("And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"--Genesis 5:24).

15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

1 6) Jesus says : "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy" (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth…"

17) Jesus is reported to say: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the world’s population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.

18) "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.

19) "Yea; have ye never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'" (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies…". "Perfect praise" has little to do with "ordaining strength because of thine enemies." Another misquotation!

20) "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him" (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

Jesus, in all his "God incarnate" wisdom, contradicts himself:

21) Jesus consistently contradicts himself concerning his Godly status. "I and my father are one." (John 14:28) Also see Philippians 2:5-6 Those verses lead us to believe that he is a part of the trinity and equal to his father being a manifestation of him. Yet, Jesus also made many statements that deny he is the perfect men, much less God incarnate. Take the following for example: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17). "My father if greater then I." (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Clearly, Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

22) Jesus said, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

23) Does Jesus support peace, or war? Matthew 5:39 "Resist not evil, but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Also note Matthew 6:38-42 & 26:52 where Jesus teaches non-resistance, Non-violence. Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

24) Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,". This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10). The contradiction lies in what Jesus later tells his followers: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

25) Can we hate our kindred? Luke 14:26 Jesus says "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple." John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer." Also see Ephesians 6:22, 5:25, & Matthew 15:4

26) Even many of the staunchest defenders of Jesus admit that his comment in Matthew 10:34 ("I came not to send peace but a sword") contradicts verses such as Matthew 26:52 ("Put up again thy sword into his place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword").

27) Deuteronomy 24:1 & 21:10-14 all say that divorce is allowed for the simple reason if a "man no longer delighteth in his wife". Yet Jesus comes along and breaks his father’s law by saying in Matthew 5:32 that adultery is the only way one can be divorced.

28) In Mark 8:35 Jesus said: "...but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s the same shall save it." How could Jesus have said this when there was no gospel when he lived? The gospel did not appear until after his death.

29) Matthew 6:13 Jesus recites a revised prayer and states, "Don’t bring us into temptation." God is the cause of everything, even Satan. God has been leading people into temptation since the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, the trees of life and knowledge would have never been there.

30) Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus thinks it’s okay to break his father’s laws, by breaking the Sabbath day. He states that he is basically exempt for such fiascoes and that he is Master of the Sabbath.

31) John 3:17 Jesus contradicts himself when he says, "God didn’t send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it." Jesus seems to forget his own stories.

32) James 4:3 If your prayers are not answered, it’s your own damned fault. This is in direct contradiction to where Jesus says "seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be known to you".

33) "If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true" John 8:14, "If I bear witness of myself it is not true." John 5:31

34) "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20), versus "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always" (Matthew 26:11 , Mark 14:7, John 12:8) and "Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am thither ye cannot come" (John 7:34). Is this the kind of friend one can rely on?

35) "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11 & Luke 6:18), versus "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery" (Matthew 19:9). In the book of Matthew, Jesus said a man could put away his wife if one factor-- fornication--is involved. In Mark and Luke he allowed no exceptions.

36) Jesus is quoted: "Judge not, and ye shall be not judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" (Luke 6:37 & Matthew 7:1), versus "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). Jesus stated men are not to judge but, then, allowed it under certain conditions. As in the case of divorce, he can’t seem to formulate a consistent policy.

37) "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46, (also note the time before crucification where Jesus prays for the "cup to passeth over me") versus "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, for this purpose I have come to this hour" (John 12:27 RSV). Jesus can’t seem to decide whether or not he wants to die. One moment he is willing; the next he isn’t.

38) In Luke 23:30 ("Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, fall on us, and to the hills, cover us") Jesus quoted Hosea 10:8 ("...and they shall say to the mountains, cover us; and to the hills, fall on us"). And, like Paul, he often quoted inaccurately. In this instance, he confused mountains with hills.

39) "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they know him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist" (Matthew 17:11-13). John the Baptist was beheaded, but Jesus was not. And what did John the Baptist restore? Nothing!

40) We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.

41) In Luke 12:4 Jesus told his followers to "Be not afraid of them that kill the body." But Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

42) Matthew 5:28 says to sin in "your heart" is considered a sin in itself. The messiah is supposed to be God incarnate, not able to sin, yet in Matthew 4:5 & Luke 4:5-9, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, which is sinning in his heart. Jesus also took upon all the sins of the world during his crucifixion, so how can it be said that "Jesus was the perfect man without sin"? This would lead one to believe he was not the Messiah.

43) Jesus told us to "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 23:17 ("Ye fools and blind"), Matthew 12:34 ("0 generation of vipers"), and Matthew 23:27 (". . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .") are excellent examples of hypocrisy.

44) Did the people of Jesus’ generation see any signs? (Matthew 12:38-40) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation except the Resurrection itself. (Mark 8:12-13) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. (Mark 16:20) They went out preaching, and the Lord confirmed the word through accompanying signs. (John 20:30) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 2:22) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 5:12 & 8:13) many signs and wonders were done through the apostles.

45) Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10 Jesus commands the disciples to "tarry in Jerusalem" immediately after the resurrection.

46) Matthew 28:18 & John 3:35 both tell that Jesus said he could do anything. Yet Mark 6:5 says Jesus was not all powerful.

47) Jesus says in Luke 2:13-14 that he came to bring peace on earth. Matthew 10:34 Jesus back peddles and says he did not come to bring peace on earth.

48) Did Christ receive testimony from man? "Ye sent unto John and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man." John 5:33-34 "And ye shall also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15:27

49) Christ laid down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies. Romans 5:10

50) Deuteronomy 23:2 says that bastards can not attend church unto the tenth generation. If Jesus was spawned by Mary and Jehovah as the Bible claims then he is technically a bastard and should not be the leader of the church.

 

[tipofthespear]

to "credit" the source you QUOTED? Aren't you suppose to give credit to whoever wrote the response you posted? Anyway, no matter, it's just more of the same.........

And one simple example of the failure of whoever wrote the original comment to understand Scripture is clearly shown in the following information provided.......

Immanuel:

Immanuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us") is a symbolic name which appears in chapters 7 and 8 of the Book of Isaiah as part of a prophecy assuring king Ahaz of Judah of God's protection against enemy kings; it is quoted in the Gospel of Matthew as a sign verifying the divine status of Jesus

The Gospel of Matthew quotes the Immanuel prophesy from Isaiah, although it uses a Greek translation rather than the original Hebrew. It begins with a genealogy from Abraham through David to Joseph, establishing Joseph as the "son of David", the rightful heir to Judah. But verse 1:16 makes clear that Jesus is not Joseph's son, and Matthew is careful never to refer to Joseph as Jesus's father. Verses 1:18-25 turn to Mary, the future mother of Jesus, betrothed (engaged) to Joseph, but "found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit" before she and Joseph have "come together". Joseph is about to break the engagement, but an angel appears to him in a dream and tells him of the child's divine origins, and Matthew 1:22-23 explains how this is the fulfillment of Scripture: "All this happened to fulfill what had been declared by the Lord through the prophet, who said, 'Look, the virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will give him the name Immanuel' - which is translated, 'God with us'".[6]

It was common in Jewish writing of the time to reinterpret the scriptures in order to signify a new meaning.[7] This is what Matthew has done with Isaiah 7 the Hebrew has the child being given the name Immanuel by "she" (presumably its mother), while the commonly-used Greek translation of the time (the Septuagint) has "you" (presumably king Ahaz, to whom the prophecy was addressed). The change from "she" or "you" to "they" allows Matthew to have Joseph give the name "Jesus" to the child, thus signalling the God-born Messiah's formal adoption into the House of David, while at the same time he is "Immanuel", God with us, the Son of God.[8]

The gospel of Matthew was probably written in the last two decades of the 1st century, by a highly educated Jew who believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah, "God with us".[9][10] At first, titles such as "Messiah" and "son of God" had described Jesus's future nature at the "parousia", the Second Coming; but very soon he came to be recognised as having become the Son of God at the resurrection; then, in Mark, he becomes Son of God at his baptism; and finally Matthew and Luke add infancy narratives in which Jesus is the Son of God from the very beginning, conceived of a virgin mother without a human father.[11]

Immanuel - Meaning Of Immanuel In The Bible



Definition: Immanuel is a Hebrew word meaning "God is with us."

When Mary and Joseph were betrothed, Mary was found to be pregnant, but Joseph knew that the child was not his because he had not had relations with her. To explain what happened, an angel appeared to him in a dream and said,

"Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:20-21, NIV)

The Promise of Immanuel

The Gospel writer Matthew, who was addressing primarily a Jewish audience, then referred to a prophecy from the Old Testament, more than 700 years before the birth of Jesus, in Isaiah 7

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:22-23, NIV)

Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled that prophecy because he was fully man yet still fully God. He came to live in Israel with his people, as Isaiah had foretold. The name Jesus, incidentally, or Yeshua in Hebrew, means "the LORD is salvation."

John 10:22) And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 .) And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 .) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 .) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 .) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 .) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 .) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 .) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 .) I and my Father are one.

John 17;20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 .) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 .) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The rest of the misinformation you posted is just as untrue in that whoever wrote it has not the slightest understanding of Scripture..........

 

[amrchaos]

But still--besides the quote in the new testament, which was taken from the old testament, only makes reference to what Jesus was to be named. Jesus was not named Immanuel.

Also, if Jesus was god, would they not have named him "God" instead of "God with us"? The name Immanuel suggest a person that god is with, not someone that is god.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's really, really, really hard to put any stock in to stories that were told orally for 70 years before they were written down.

Which do you think took precedence when the Gospels were finally put to paper, accuracy or agenda?

 

[tipofthespear]

But still--besides the quote in the new testament, which was taken from the old testament, only makes reference to what Jesus was to be named. Jesus was not named Immanuel.

Also, if Jesus was god, would they not have named him "God" instead of "God with us"? The name Immanuel suggest a person that god is with, not someone that is god.

Jesus is GOD THE SON, PART OF THE HOLY TRINITY.......to unbelievers this is impossible to even begin to understand, so it is simply useless to explain to them. As well, from what I have read here, there is ONLY an intent to ridicule anything Godly, Jesus, Christianity, which assures that the minds of the folks are CLOSED as are their hearts.

Please quote the Scriptures in their "proper context," otherwise people are simply being intellectually dishonest, and there is simply no reason to discuss Scriptures in that instance.

Matthew 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 .) Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 .) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 .) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 .) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 .) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

At least try and seek to understand what is being said…….”CALL” His name Jesus…………and………”CALL” His name Emmanuel,” is an interchangeable “CALLING.” Even the Scriptures show this in vs. 22..............

Jesus is KNOWN by MANY names………..PRINCE OF PEACE……GOOD SHEPHERD…….SON OF GOD…..WORD….LORD OF LORDS…….KING OF KINGS…..I AM……CHIEF CORNERSTONE…….TEACHER… LAMB OF GOD………ALPHA AND OMEGA…..JESUS CHRIST……SAVIOUR…..REDEEMER, MESSIAH…..SERVANT……..MASTER……..ROSE OF SHARON…..MORNING STAR……
Throughout the years, from that time to this, Jesus Christ is “CALLED” by all of these NAMES. Now, those who ONLY DESIRE TO ridicule Christ, Christianity will “fuss ‘n’ such,” but that does not change the TRUTH.

I don't care if you "believe" or not, that is your choice (using the generic "you" here), but if people aren't going to be intellectually honest enough to quote Scripture in context and seek some understanding of it........what's the point in discussing it with them?

 

[tipofthespear]

It's really, really, really hard to put any stock in to stories that were told orally for 70 years before they were written down.

Which do you think took precedence when the Gospels were finally put to paper, accuracy or agenda?

I choose to "bet" my eternity on the Word of God............what exactly are you "betting" your eternity on?

DO YOU have one SHRED of evidence to PROVE that "agenda" took precedence OVER ACCURACE in the Writing of the Four Gospels, the various Epistles? Please provide it if you do, it should be a good read.

 

[tipofthespear]

for someone to give proper credit to the author of the post that POLKOW published here.....

 

[amrchaos]

But still--besides the quote in the new testament, which was taken from the old testament, only makes reference to what Jesus was to be named. Jesus was not named Immanuel.

Also, if Jesus was god, would they not have named him "God" instead of "God with us"? The name Immanuel suggest a person that god is with, not someone that is god.

Jesus is GOD THE SON, PART OF THE HOLY TRINITY.......to unbelievers this is impossible to even begin to understand, so it is simply useless to explain to them. As well, from what I have read here, there is ONLY an intent to ridicule anything Godly, Jesus, Christianity, which assures that the minds of the folks are CLOSED as are their hearts.

Please quote the Scriptures in their "proper context," otherwise people are simply being intellectually dishonest, and there is simply no reason to discuss Scriptures in that instance.

Matthew 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 .) Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 .) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 .) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 .) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 .) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

At least try and seek to understand what is being said…….”CALL” His name Jesus…………and………”CALL” His name Emmanuel,” is an interchangeable “CALLING.” Even the Scriptures show this in vs. 22..............

Jesus is KNOWN by MANY names………..PRINCE OF PEACE……GOOD SHEPHERD…….SON OF GOD…..WORD….LORD OF LORDS…….KING OF KINGS…..I AM……CHIEF CORNERSTONE…….TEACHER… LAMB OF GOD………ALPHA AND OMEGA…..JESUS CHRIST……SAVIOUR…..REDEEMER, MESSIAH…..SERVANT……..MASTER……..ROSE OF SHARON…..MORNING STAR……
Throughout the years, from that time to this, Jesus Christ is “CALLED” by all of these NAMES. Now, those who ONLY DESIRE TO ridicule Christ, Christianity will “fuss ‘n’ such,” but that does not change the TRUTH.

I don't care if you "believe" or not, that is your choice (using the generic "you" here), but if people aren't going to be intellectually honest enough to quote Scripture in context and seek some understanding of it........what's the point in discussing it with them?

First off--you quoted scriptures before I commented, so we are referring to your quote.

So the issue of dishonesty is more of your creation, uless you are only referring to polk..

2nd, These names that you quote, some of them contradict other names. For instance, when is GOD = Lamb of God? How can God also be Son of god.

The problem here is that you are taking the opinions of several different men on their beliefs who Jesus is. Some think he was a man, some think he was the Messiah/Prophet, and then there is John who claims that God is the Word is Jesus Christ.

3rd--because I or someone else is not a believer does not mean we do not understand your argument. What we do not understand we tend to ask questions about. Like why not name Jesus "God" instead of "God with us"? Come to thi8nk about it, Emmanual is the english equivalent of that name. Does that mean everyone named "Emmanual" is also god?(I don't think so. I think that is a blessing extended from the parents to their sons company!)

 

[tipofthespear]

But still--besides the quote in the new testament, which was taken from the old testament, only makes reference to what Jesus was to be named. Jesus was not named Immanuel.

Also, if Jesus was god, would they not have named him "God" instead of "God with us"? The name Immanuel suggest a person that god is with, not someone that is god.

Jesus is GOD THE SON, PART OF THE HOLY TRINITY.......to unbelievers this is impossible to even begin to understand, so it is simply useless to explain to them. As well, from what I have read here, there is ONLY an intent to ridicule anything Godly, Jesus, Christianity, which assures that the minds of the folks are CLOSED as are their hearts.

Please quote the Scriptures in their "proper context," otherwise people are simply being intellectually dishonest, and there is simply no reason to discuss Scriptures in that instance.

Matthew 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 .) Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 .) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 .) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 .) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 .) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

At least try and seek to understand what is being said…….”CALL” His name Jesus…………and………”CALL” His name Emmanuel,” is an interchangeable “CALLING.” Even the Scriptures show this in vs. 22..............

Jesus is KNOWN by MANY names………..PRINCE OF PEACE……GOOD SHEPHERD…….SON OF GOD…..WORD….LORD OF LORDS…….KING OF KINGS…..I AM……CHIEF CORNERSTONE…….TEACHER… LAMB OF GOD………ALPHA AND OMEGA…..JESUS CHRIST……SAVIOUR…..REDEEMER, MESSIAH…..SERVANT……..MASTER……..ROSE OF SHARON…..MORNING STAR……
Throughout the years, from that time to this, Jesus Christ is “CALLED” by all of these NAMES. Now, those who ONLY DESIRE TO ridicule Christ, Christianity will “fuss ‘n’ such,” but that does not change the TRUTH.

I don't care if you "believe" or not, that is your choice (using the generic "you" here), but if people aren't going to be intellectually honest enough to quote Scripture in context and seek some understanding of it........what's the point in discussing it with them?

First off--you quoted scriptures before I commented, so we are referring to your quote.

So the issue of dishonesty is more of your creation, uless you are only referring to polk..

2nd, These names that you quote, some of them contradict other names. For instance, when is GOD = Lamb of God? How can God also be Son of god.

The problem here is that you are taking the opinions of several different men on their beliefs who Jesus is. Some think he was a man, some think he was the Messiah/Prophet, and then there is John who claims that God is the Word is Jesus Christ.

3rd--because I or someone else is not a believer does not mean we do not understand your argument. What we do not understand we tend to ask questions about. Like why not name Jesus "God" instead of "God with us"? Come to thi8nk about it, Emmanual is the english equivalent of that name. Does that mean everyone named "Emmanual" is also god?(I don't think so. I think that is a blessing extended from the parents to their sons company!)

I stated that I was using the generic "you," and was not speaking of YOU personally, thought YOU would understand that......

None of the names Jesus is known as "contradict" the others.......if one understands Scripture, this is quite clear.........

I didn't say YOU or unbelievers DON'T understand MY argument, I said (as does the Bible) that unbelievers will not understand the Word of God.........and given the lack of understanding shown thus far by many here...........I'd say it's SPOT ON!.

The only PROBLEM is that YOU and nonbelievers DENY Christ, deny God, and deny the Word of God...........that is where the problem lies..........

I will be happy to answer your question posed about "why not name Jesus God?......." and will do so in another comment............

FIRST.........I want to make perfectly clear that polkow HAS NOT RESPONDED and PROPERLY CREDITED/IDENTIFIED WHO THE AUTHOR OF THE article he posted here is........and in my opinion that constitutes plagiarism on his part.

Links to the article he cherrypicked:

Jesus is a False Messiah

Jesus Christ is a False Messiah

 

[tipofthespear]

JESUS IS GOD

To separate properly the comments/Scripture posted here, I will post Scripture in black, and Scripture spoken by Jesus in red, and my personal thoughts in blue.

Jesus Christ:

JOHN 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 .) The same was in the beginning with God. 3 .) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 .) In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 .) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not……….29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 .) This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 .) And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 .) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 .) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 .) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

JOHN 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

JOHN 10:23) And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 .) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 .) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 .) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 .) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 .) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 .) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 .) I and my Father are one.

John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.[/color\ 8 .) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 .) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 .) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

JOHN 17:17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 .) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 .) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 .) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 .) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 .) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

(excerpt from article)

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us") is a symbolic name which appears in chapters 7 and 8 of the Book of Isaiah as part of a prophecy assuring king Ahaz of Judah of God's protection against enemy kings; it is quoted in the Gospel of Matthew as a sign verifying the divine status of Jesus. (link below)

Immanuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(excerpt from article)

Jesus Christ

Smith's Bible Dictionary

"The life and character of Jesus Christ," says Dr. Schaff, "is the holy of holies in the history of the world." → NAME.-The name Jesus signifies saviour . It is the Greek form of Jehoshua (Joshua). The name Christ signifies anointed. Jesus was both priest and king. Among the Jews priests were anointed, as their inauguration to their office. (1 Chronicles 16:22) In the New Testament the name Christ is used as equivalent to the Hebrew Messiah (anointed), (John 1:41) the name given to the long-promised Prophet and King whom the Jews had been taught by their prophets to expect. (Matthew 11:3; Acts 19:4) The use of this name, as applied to the Lord, has always a reference to the promises of the prophets. The name of Jesus is the proper name of our Lord, and that of Christ is added to identify him with the promised Messiah. Other names are sometimes added to the names Jesus Christ, thus, "Lord," "a king," "King of Israel," "Emmanuel," "Son of David," "chosen of God."

(link to article below)

Jesus Christ definition | Bible Dictionary

I hope this gives you an understanding of who Jesus is, what His name is, and why He is known by different names. I know it is hard to understand the Holy Trinity. Even believers struggle with this when they first give their lives to Christ, however, with study of Scripture and an earnest desire to know the truth, they come to understand the Holy Trinity. God the Father (God of man), God the Son (God as man), and God the Holy Spirit (God within man). If you are serious in asking your questions, and not just "fishing' for the opportunity to ridicule, I will be happy to try and answer any questions you may have concerning Scripture. By no means am I the "absolute authority" on Scripture, so don't think that I am suggesting that. I am simply giving you my opinion of what Scripture says based on my study of Scripture.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's really, really, really hard to put any stock in to stories that were told orally for 70 years before they were written down.

Which do you think took precedence when the Gospels were finally put to paper, accuracy or agenda?

I choose to "bet" my eternity on the Word of God............what exactly are you "betting" your eternity on?

DO YOU have one SHRED of evidence to PROVE that "agenda" took precedence OVER ACCURACE in the Writing of the Four Gospels, the various Epistles? Please provide it if you do, it should be a good read.

Do you have one shred of evidence to prove that the ancient stories (or any one of the ancient stories) is any more 'sacred' than the words you're reading right now?

I mean, of course, anything in addition to what the ancient stories have to say about themselves.



The letters to the early church were written 50+ years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth... The Gospels were finally put to paper 70+ years after the events...

Knowing Monkeys the way you know Monkeys, which do YOU think took precedence in the writings, accuracy (such as it was after 70 years of 'fish tales'), or the agenda of those who commissioned the work?

 

[tipofthespear]

It's really, really, really hard to put any stock in to stories that were told orally for 70 years before they were written down.

Which do you think took precedence when the Gospels were finally put to paper, accuracy or agenda?

I choose to "bet" my eternity on the Word of God............what exactly are you "betting" your eternity on?

DO YOU have one SHRED of evidence to PROVE that "agenda" took precedence OVER ACCURACE in the Writing of the Four Gospels, the various Epistles? Please provide it if you do, it should be a good read.

Do you have one shred of evidence to prove that the ancient stories (or any one of the ancient stories) is any more 'sacred' than the words you're reading right now?

I mean, of course, anything in addition to what the ancient stories have to say about themselves.



The letters to the early church were written 50+ years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth... The Gospels were finally put to paper 70+ years after the events...

Knowing Monkeys the way you know Monkeys, which do YOU think took precedence in the writings, accuracy (such as it was after 70 years of 'fish tales'), or the agenda of those who commissioned the work?

See......it's the merry-go-round thing........It comes down to what one chooses to believe. What confuses me is that I and other Christians are quite happy to state publically what we believe, who we believe in, yet when I ask those who do not believe in God or Jesus or Christianity what they believe in, I can't get a straight answer of any value. I don't understand why folks can't just say what they believe in........or, just state they don't believe in anything........but that seems impossible to me, for everyone HAS to believe in something do they not? Even if it is ONLY themselves.

For me what took precedent was the "inspired Word of God." I firmly believe the Word of God, the Holy Bible to be TRUTH. Now, choose as you wish, that is certainly your right. However it is also TRUTH that while I cannot disprove whatever you believe in, neither can you disprove the Word of God. (the generic "you" here)

Odd thing is it really comes down to this.............IF you are right, that there is no God, no Christ, no Eternal Reward..............so what? My believing that there is caused no harm, no foul........and the Christian faith is a very good way for people to strive to live is it not? As the Laws of mankind and the moral standards of mankind are based on the Word of God this would ring true.

So, question is: WHAT IF I AM RIGHT? Where does that leave you?

(again, the generic "you" here)