The death of Judas Iscariot

[BluePhantom]

Let me just follow up a bit here and point out that the perception one has about the nature and personality of God can be strongly influenced by one's interpretation. If we look at the Lot example again for a second:

And so a literal interpreter views the story and concludes "wow God is one mean SOB...he turned that bitch into salt for disobeying"

Someone who views it that way is going to take the final lesson "don't fuck with God. He will kick your ass if you disobey."

where an allegorical interpreter says "ahhhh.....when the past is gone one should focus on the future to avoid bitterness and unhappiness."

Someone who views it this way is going to reach the final lesson "learn to let things go."

Well what a huge difference in not only the lesson, but in the perception of God that results from it. In the former, God is a pretty vindictive, tyrannical prick. In the latter, He doesn't have to be that way at all.

 

[ABikerSailor]

That's the second time someone (maybe it was you before) has mentioned that show to me, I'll have to check it out!

There's fodder for a lifetime of reading in the bible. I used to say if I could have only one book forever, I'd have the bible, because I had faith that it would be enough, over time, to get me through anything. I didn't have a lot of faith of staying INTERESTED in it for eternity, though, if I had no other reading material. But as I've gotten older, I realize more and more how incredibly complex it is, and how it seems to change each time I read it; how it changes ME each time I read it. I find it fascinating, and now not only do I have faith that it would be enough, I know I would find it interesting forever as well, too.

If you've got the time to go hunting for the episode on the web, it's called "Hanging With Judas".

 

[BluePhantom]

Another thing I might point out though; just some ideas to chew on, is that prior to the Councils of Nicaea and the Council of Carthage there was disagreement among Christians regarding whether or not Judas actually "betrayed" Jesus. The Gnostics (who eventually lost the debate) were compelled by the idea that Judas was among the most trusted and closest disciple of Jesus. He was also the one with the greatest ability to understand what Jesus was talking about. There are some scriptures in the Bible to support that but I don't have time to look it up right now as I am on my way out the door to do some shopping. Anyhow, in their view Jesus knew his place was on the cross and so he asked Judas to go get the Romans so he could fulfill his destiny and God's wishes. So according to the Gnostics, Judas was simply doing what was required of him and indeed we should be grateful to him for helping Jesus fulfill His purpose and save mankind. If you accept that idea then it becomes more reasonable to assume his death was likely an accident (as discussed in Acts) because he would not have viewed himself as one who had betrayed Jesus and therefore would not find a need to hang himself.

If on the other hand you view it from the traditional perspective: that it was a true betrayal, then the suicide version makes a lot more sense.

Personally, I am of many minds on that question (true betrayal vs. all part of the plan) but it's an interesting topic of discussion nonetheless.

Ok off to shop

 

[koshergrl]

I don't know if there's a difference between "true" betrayal and any other betrayal..betrayal is betrayal, whether at the request of the person you're betraying or not.

But I think that's a fascinating and compelling concept, and it fits in with my desire to believe that Judas is not damned, but saved by right of his repentance, and in heaven.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I don't know if there's a difference between "true" betrayal and any other betrayal..betrayal is betrayal, whether at the request of the person you're betraying or not.

But I think that's a fascinating and compelling concept, and it fits in with my desire to believe that Judas is not damned, but saved by right of his repentance, and in heaven.

Actually, Judas was the most trusted of the disciples, and there was even talk of a bit of jealousy among the other disciples because of Judas' favored status.

According to some, Yeshua asked Judas to get Him to the high priests so that He could talk to them, and a deal was agreed to, but when Judas turned over Yeshua, the priests then immediately turned Him over to the Romans.

Which is why Judas went and hung himself in front of the tomb, because he wanted to exact payback on the priests for what they did.

 

[koshergrl]

I have heard that he was most beloved, too.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I have heard that he was most beloved, too.

He was also the most trusted, as he was the guy carrying all the money.

 

[BluePhantom]

I don't know if there's a difference between "true" betrayal and any other betrayal..betrayal is betrayal, whether at the request of the person you're betraying or not.

But I think that's a fascinating and compelling concept, and it fits in with my desire to believe that Judas is not damned, but saved by right of his repentance, and in heaven.

I personally do not think Judas is damned for several reasons (not the least among them that I reject the concept of "hell" to begin with) but think of it like this:

- If it was all part of the master plan then Judas was acting within the will and grace of God and as such he will be blessed.

- If he betrayed Jesus with malice in his heart, the scriptures say he repented and through repentance he would be forgiven and would be blessed.

- If, as Biker alludes to, he was simply duped by the Pharisees then the blame is not on his head and he would be blessed.

Regardless of which event you look at he seems to be in pretty good shape and not wallowing in the ninth level of hell as Dante imagines. But again regardless of which scenario it was I personally like to focus on the idea that if he had not played his role, then mankind could not be saved and as such I tend to agree with the Gnostics that we should be thanking Judas instead of vilifying him. Let's face it...regardless of which scenario above is the accurate one, if we accept the principle of Jesus' sacrifice...Jesus won and He has Judas to thank for being the catalyst through which His victory was achieved.

 

[koshergrl]

Well that's the free will thing that gives so many non-believers (and many believers) fits. My personal take is that yes we have free will, and we're accountable for it. And God knows what our will is, and has accounted for it in his plan. That doesn't let us off the hook.

But it sounds to me like Judas repented as well. And isn't the basis of salvation repentence? Believing in Christ, asking for mercy for your sins, and being granted it?

 

[BluePhantom]

Well that's the free will thing that gives so many non-believers (and many believers) fits. My personal take is that yes we have free will, and we're accountable for it. And God knows what our will is, and has accounted for it in his plan. That doesn't let us off the hook.

Well I could argue that point but 1) that's not the purpose of this thread, 2) it would take a VERY long time, and 3) it would only piss you off. Let's just say I respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

But it sounds to me like Judas repented as well. And isn't the basis of salvation repentence? Believing in Christ, asking for mercy for your sins, and being granted it?

On this we can certainly agree.....Christ almighty there is hope after all.

 

[koshergrl]

I know, that's the way I feel, too.

I know I'm forgiven for the sins I committed BEFORE I was saved.

The ones that keep me up at night are the ones I've committed in the years since. Yikes.

 

[strollingbones]

in 'conversations with god' there is no hell....everyone gets a free pass to heaven

 

[BluePhantom]

I know, that's the way I feel, too.

I know I'm forgiven for the sins I committed BEFORE I was saved.

The ones that keep me up at night are the ones I've committed in the years since. Yikes.

I am really biting my tongue here. You and I are making great strides here, Koshergirl. We might want to quit while we are ahead.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm not trying to be objectionable.

 

[BluePhantom]

in 'conversations with god' there is no hell....everyone gets a free pass to heaven

That's a very good series of books. I am not sure I completely buy that it was God he was talking to, but who am I to say it wasn't? On the other hand my perception of God is such that even an internalized discussion with yourself is in many ways a "conversation with God". I guess I would say that I found those books to be very thought provoking.

 

[BluePhantom]

I'm not trying to be objectionable.

I don't think you are being objectionable. I just know that when I get going it's going to be a long day.

 

[koshergrl]

Maybe for you.

 

[BluePhantom]

Maybe for you.

For me and everyone around me. I really try not to force my religious beliefs on others (usually with an appalling lack of success) so I find it's best if I refrain from getting too deep into what I happen to believe.

 

[Iridescence]

Blue Phantom... for some reason, and remembering I am not a biblical scholar... but I seem to recall some interesting information from some point in time that referred to Judas as being very close to Jesus in the way of understanding. It isn't so much that they were competitively influenced, necessarily, but that one represented one type of sacrifice while the other another. Could you add anything to this?

 

[BluePhantom]

Blue Phantom... for some reason, and remembering I am not a biblical scholar... but I seem to recall some interesting information from some point in time that referred to Judas as being very close to Jesus in the way of understanding. It isn't so much that they were competitively influenced, necessarily, but that one represented one type of sacrifice while the other another. Could you add anything to this?

Yeah.....wow I haven't heard that discussed in a very long time and frankly I am having to dig very deep into my memory to bring up the line of reasoning. If memory serves I believe it was that Jesus made a physical sacrifice in order to protect the spirit while Judas made a spiritual sacrifice in order to protect the physical. But the argument was that both worked in tandem...both were necessary and vital to the success of the concept as a whole. What I mean is that on the surface one looks and says "well sacrificing the spirit for the material as was the lesson of Judas represents the wrong way to go" but the argument I think you are referring to makes a very compelling point that no, that was actually very important in the grand scheme and that Judas served a valuable purpose in that regard and not necessarily one of "what not to do". It was about the dichotomy of God and how it relates to man.

I think I know what you are referring to but boy I am really having to search my brain for it. Let me do some research and get back to you because it's a really interesting argument. I think it was an argument from Thomas Aquinas. Let me research it. I know what you are talking about.