The death of Judas Iscariot

[JoeB131]

Oh my, and he's a lightweight, lol...it's when you have them ratatat that it gets really disheartening.

We were talking about this very topic TODAY in church...yet more support for my own personal faith, because it NEVER fails that when something biblical strikes me and I start thinking about it, it will come up in a sermon or Sunday school or someone will bring it up. It's a continuing revelation to me.

Anyway, we were discussing how awful people are specifically about Christians, particularly at the Christmas season...the horrible things they say...and it's all about them being unhappy, and searching, without knowing it, for God.

And we were also talking not about Judas specifically, but about how important it is to love people who aren't necessarily easy to love, and who might not love (and may actively hate) you, and who may have done horrible things (Judas!) or just not be people you, personally, like.

Man, seriously, my other great love of Bible thumpers... the WHININESS. They aren't allowed to impose their stupidity without someone pointing it out, people are just being MEAN to them.

What we established is that you were actually pretty ignorant of the actual verses in question, that Luke and Matthew gave contradictory accounts of how Judas died. (One of hundreds of contradictions in the Bible, BTW) That you knowledge comes from whatever the pastors of your church told you, and you probably never bothered to look the verses up yourself.

Then you go into what I call "Biblical disconnnect mode", that is when someone points out something in the bible that is truly ludicrous, you immediately go into a defensive stance that merely by pointing out the silliness, you are being oppressed.

If there is a God... he is not the Bible God, a needy, sociopathic, evil creature that is not worthy of anyone's worship.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes, you already said that. Thank you.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, you already said that. Thank you.

Yes, I have... and it horrifies and keeps you up at night, I'm sure.

 

[koshergrl]

Good heavens no. I don't fear you, I pity you.

 

[theliq]

So, I'm re-reading Acts, and it seems to me that Judas bought some land with his betrayal of Christ earnings, then either fell or threw himself off a cliff, and BROKE IN HALF, and all his bowels (!) spilled out of him, resulting in the field being called "the field of blood" or some such thing.

Now I don't know why I thought Judas hung himself, so I'm curious if anybody else has any other take on the fate of Judas. Anybody except biblical retards like ABS, Loki, and Dragon, that is. Though I'm sure they'll have something supremely idiotic to say.

So did Judas commit suicide, or did he fall from a cliff, jump from a cliff, or hang himself? When? Years after the death of Christ? Shortly after? He had time to buy land, if I'm reading the passage correctly. It's maddeningly and miraculously ambiguous, as much of the bible is until you really start digging. And do we know his fate in the hereafter? Are there references to it? There is a vague reference to it in the Acts but I haven't really researched it yet.

I read recently that Judas was in fact not the individual he has been made out to be,it made very interesting reading...I will try to find the article and give you the details.tl Which is...www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/?fs=www9...com

It describes the lost gospel of JUDAS

 

[koshergrl]

Jesus loved him. How horrible it must have been to love him, to know he is going to betray you and be responsible for your death...and to suffer because of it himself.

I think I speak for most Christians when I say that the thing that bothers us most isn't the thought that other people don't like our religion or have misconceptions about us based upon their own bias...it's the fact that those misconceptions can cause them great suffering, not just in this life, but in the next. And we all have family members that we love so much who are not saved. We can only keep trying and hope that they reach salvation before they are out of chances. It breaks my heart that people I know personally and love very much do not know nor understand the joy and peace that comes just from asking Christ into your heart, and turning all your sins and sorrows over to God. They won't even try it, and it's so sad. It's such a little thing, and affords such comfort...but pride and maybe fear, or hate, or I don't know, prevents them. For whatever reason, they don't want to reach out for comfort. They prefer to keep their pain to themselves.

 

[koshergrl]

And honestly, for the sake of Christ, and Judas himself, and every one of us who are saved and yet who commit sin KNOWING we are sinning, I really, REALLLLLY hope that Judas begged forgiveness before he jumped, and I hope I see him in heaven. I hope I see everybody there.

 

[theliq]

And honestly, for the sake of Christ, and Judas himself, and every one of us who are saved and yet who commit sin KNOWING we are sinning, I really, REALLLLLY hope that Judas begged forgiveness before he jumped, and I hope I see him in heaven. I hope I see everybody there.

This is a lovely post kosher,and very poignant for this time but Judas is much maligned,like so many in the annals of history.steve

 

[Iridescence]

Again, he sends his "son" or maybe himself (because he was his own father, which is just kind of freaky, really) to save us from a punishment/curse he himself imposed.

Because a woman listened to a talking snake and ate an apple from a magic tree.

Really.

And honestly, you can't prove that God created all life... or any life, for that matter.

OMGorsh. Your posts have proven provoking.... Ironically more to discredit your avid stance against Christianity.

As soon as Christian start actually doing what Jesus said to do, I'll stop mocking them....

Um, well... How is it that you are so well informed and yet so condescending? Out of the mulltitudes how many diciples did Christ have? I don't know, for even as much as they knew and were exposed to... they struggled with understanding things even coming directly from Him. From what seems evident, Joel, the more enlightened one becomes the less they question.

 

[The Professor]

So, I'm re-reading Acts, and it seems to me that Judas bought some land with his betrayal of Christ earnings, then either fell or threw himself off a cliff, and BROKE IN HALF, and all his bowels (!) spilled out of him, resulting in the field being called "the field of blood" or some such thing.

Now I don't know why I thought Judas hung himself, so I'm curious if anybody else has any other take on the fate of Judas. Anybody except biblical retards like ABS, Loki, and Dragon, that is. Though I'm sure they'll have something supremely idiotic to say.

So did Judas commit suicide, or did he fall from a cliff, jump from a cliff, or hang himself? When? Years after the death of Christ? Shortly after? He had time to buy land, if I'm reading the passage correctly. It's maddeningly and miraculously ambiguous, as much of the bible is until you really start digging. And do we know his fate in the hereafter? Are there references to it? There is a vague reference to it in the Acts but I haven't really researched it yet.

There are many contradictions in the Bible regarding Judas. I will first address the conflicting accounts in Matthew and Acts. Here is what Matthew tells us about Judas in the purported complete, inerrant and inspired word of God (quotes are verbatim, but I have eliminated verse numbers for easier reading):

“And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

“And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me” (Matthew 27:2-10, KJV, emphasis my own).

And now, let's examine the second account of the story of Judas as presented in the book of Acts. You will immediately see several discrepancies.

“Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out” (Acts 1:16-18, KJV, emphasis my own).

Comparing the account given in Matthew with the account given in Acts, we discover several contradictions:

First, Matthew says Judas give the 30 pieces of silver back to the priests, and the priest used it to buy a field; however, Acts says Judas kept the money and he himself purchased the field. Second, Matthew says Judas died by hanging himself (there is no other interpretation of the words used by Matthew); however, Acts said he fell headlong [headfirst] and burst asunder so that his bowels gushed out. So there are several contradictions between Matthew and Acts.

Now let us examine other parts of Matthew's account to see if they jive with the rest of the Bible. Of course they do not.

First contradiction between Matthew and the Old Testament:

Matthew said, “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.” However, there is no mention in the book of Jeremy (Jeremiah) of thirty pieces of silver, and Matthew is clearly wrong. Christians point to Jeremiah 32:6-9 to show that a prophecy was fulfilled by Judas; however these verses say nothing about 30 pieces of silver (although they do mention 17 pieces (shekels) of silver. Here are the relevant verses:

“And Jeremiah said, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Behold, Hanameel the son of Shallum thine uncle shall come unto thee saying, Buy thee my field that is in Anathoth: for the right of redemption is thine to buy it. So Hanameel mine uncle's son came to me in the court of the prison according to the word of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the word of the LORD. And I bought the field of Hanameel my uncle's son, that was in Anathoth, and weighed him the money, even seventeen shekels of silver” (Jeremiah 32:6-9). The only place in the Old Testament that 30 pieces of silver are mentioned is in Zechariah 11:12-13; however, Matthew said the 30 pieces of silver was mentioned in Jeremiah, not Zechariah.

Second contradiction between Matthew and the Old Testament:

Matthew sees every word written in the Old Testament as a prophecy. However, a casual reading of EITHER Jeremy 32:6-9 or Zechariah 11:12-13 will show there is not a hint of prophecy within the verses. Both prophets are clearly describing events which have already occurred, and there is nothing which anyone of normal intelligence would view to be prophetic. I call this a contradiction because, unlike Matthew I know what a prophecy is. How any one could read the above quoted verses and see a prophecy involving Judas is beyond me. However, I do know that many Christians, even very intelligent ones, seem to disengage their brains when discussing the Bible.

OK, time for fun: Question: How many ways did Judas die? Answer: four!!

First, according to Matthew, he hanged himself.

Second, according to Acts, he fell and was disemboweled.

Third, according to Paul, he didn't die at all!!! What, you say?? Wait, wait, wait, let me prove what I say. Here is something Paul said in the complete, inerrant and inspired word of God:

“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God” (1 Corinthians 15:4-9).

Paul unequivocally says that AFTER the crucifixion, but BEFORE the ascension Christ was seen by all twelve apostles. However other Biblical accounts make it clear that there were only eleven apostles at the time. Matthias was not appointed to replace Judas until after the ascension (Acts 1-26, read in context of entire chapter), so that Paul's reference to “the twelve” included Judas! Paul says Judas was alive after the resurrection, and therefore no one knows when or how he died!

Fourth, but I have to go outside the Bible for this one, Judas was run over by a wagon. Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, one of the chief Christian authorities of the second century, and who wrote before the books of Matthew and Acts were written, gives the following account of the fate of Judas:

"Judas walked about in the world a great example of impiety; for his body having swollen so that, on an occasion, when a wagon was moving on its way, he could not pass it, he was crushed by the chariot and his bowels gushed out" The Christ, by John E. Remsberg, Item 279).

I hope I have answered your question. I apologize for being so wordy, but there are indeed many problems regarding the Biblical account of Judas Iscariot. I have not mentioned all the contradictions, just enough to let you know that the Biblical stories of Judas are not reliable.

 

[koshergrl]

Anyway, I hope he repented before he died.

 

[The Professor]

Anyway, I hope he repented before he died.

Well, according to the Book of Matthew, he did:

"And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:3-5).

 

[koshergrl]

Good.
I don't find the so called contradictions disturbing at all. It gives me something to ponder. They're part of a whole picture. We'll eventually have the whole album.

 

[JoeB131]

Anyway, I hope he repented before he died.

Oh, why would you hope that.

What makes you bible thumpers really sick and worthy of all the contempt I inflict on you is that you kind of get off on the idea that you are finally going to 'get even' when you are in heaven and all the unbelievers are in Hell.

Which is what makes your religion contemptable.

 

[JoeB131]

Um, well... How is it that you are so well informed and yet so condescending? Out of the mulltitudes how many diciples did Christ have? I don't know, for even as much as they knew and were exposed to... they struggled with understanding things even coming directly from Him. From what seems evident, Joel, the more enlightened one becomes the less they question.

Who's "Joel"?

I think that the enlightened people are the ones who never stop asking questions.

My problem with Christianity is that the contradictions and illogic were always too much for me to accept at face value, no matter how many times the psychotic nuns hit me with wooden rulers.

Give you an example. They gave us all our own little copies of the New Testement around fifth grade.

(They pretty much kept the Old Testement a secret until High School, and no wonder why, all the juicy insanity in there. They just gave us bowlderized versions of the OT stories. They told us all about Mrs. Lot being turned into salt. They left out the part about homosexuality, offering daughters for gang rape and drunken incest.)

Anyway, first thing I notice is that they give this geneology of Jesus in Matthew. So I ask why they traced his linage through Joseph (My patron saint) if God was his father. Then I asked why there was a different geneology in Luke. Pretty soon Sr. Mary Butch's answer came in the form of a ruler for asking too many logical questions.

KosherGirl would have made a fine nun. Unthinking, mean, and totally fanatical.

 

[Sunni Man]

Um, well... How is it that you are so well informed and yet so condescending? Out of the mulltitudes how many diciples did Christ have? I don't know, for even as much as they knew and were exposed to... they struggled with understanding things even coming directly from Him. From what seems evident, Joel, the more enlightened one becomes the less they question.

Who's "Joel"?

I think that the enlightened people are the ones who never stop asking questions.

My problem with Christianity is that the contradictions and illogic were always too much for me to accept at face value, no matter how many times the psychotic nuns hit me with wooden rulers.

Give you an example. They gave us all our own little copies of the New Testement around fifth grade.

Sounds like you still have bitterness and unresolved issues from elementary school.

As an adult you really should be over them and have moved on by now.

 

[JoeB131]

Sounds like you still have bitterness and unresolved issues from elementary school.

As an adult you really should be over them and have moved on by now.

No, I've totally resolved the problems.

1) There is no God.
2) The bible (as well as every other holy book) was written by assholes who were just making shit up to fool less smart people.
3) All those nuns were frustrated lesbians who couldn't deal with being gay, and took it out on kids. Once it became hip to be a lesbian, the only nuns you see any more are transies at costume parties.

So all that money my parents spend on religious education was well spent.

 

[Sunni Man]

Maybe you and the other poster Cammmpbell could get a group discount with a local mental health professional for your unresolved childhood trama issues.

 

[JoeB131]

And honestly, for the sake of Christ, and Judas himself, and every one of us who are saved and yet who commit sin KNOWING we are sinning, I really, REALLLLLY hope that Judas begged forgiveness before he jumped, and I hope I see him in heaven. I hope I see everybody there.

Again, but you see, that's the problem.

Let's say all 7 billion of us died in a cosmic accident.

Welp, only you folks who believed in Jay-a-zus get in. So the 5 billion of you who are Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Daoists, Buhddists, Hindus, whatever.... Straight down to the firy pits of hell you go. You might have been an okay person, but screw it... down to hell you go.

Okay, so now we are down to the 2 billion of you who happen to be Christians. But you have to be the RIGHT KIND of Christian, and what you got right on the whole list of questions about sacrements and transubstantiaion and other doctrinal bullshit has a role to play.

So if we are really lucky, the Catholics got the right answers, and maybe a billion of us have a good shot at getting in. Because the rest of you are pretty much screwed.

Then and only then do we get into the whole 'which sins did you commit and how sorry were you really for them?" Bit. Except most of us aren't murderers and rapists, the only sins I would consider actually serious enough for any real punishment. Not the Bible God, though. He's got a whole list of sins he's gonna burn your ass for.

You get why I see this theology and anyone who believes in it as being totally messed up?

 

[JoeB131]

Maybe you and the other poster Cammmpbell could get a group discount with a local mental health professional for your unresolved childhood trama issues.

Maybe you can stop being such a whiny, snivelly little twit, but you can't hold out too much hope.

Anyway, I consider myself lucky. I got through 12 years of Catholic schools and didn't get ass-raped by a priest.

Can't say that for the rest of my fellow Catholics....