The Cracks Appear

[Yurt]

only imbeciles think the federal government is the problem....

unchecked corporatists are the problem...

how about unchecked government?

 

[jillian]

only imbeciles think the federal government is the problem....

unchecked corporatists are the problem...

how about unchecked government?

I would object to that, too.

What's better run, though...

Social Security (which has administrative costs of only 4% of its income) or General Motors?

The US military or Blackwater?

Walter Reed Hospital when it was government operated or after its maintenance was contracted out to the same people who couldn't get ice to New Orleans?

The guv'ment haters need to do better before they have credibility.

 

[Yurt]

you compared a small sampling of businesses...i would say overall, corporations are run far superior than the government. no corporation could survive the massive debt load and reckless spending that the government indulges in every single year.

as to blackwater...why do diplomats, including US senators, choose blackwater over us military for their protection over there?

 

[jillian]

you compared a small sampling of businesses...

It's not a small sampling... it's a sampling which represents the difference

the anti-govt folk want everyone to think anything govt run is like waiting on line at DMV (which is state operated, btw).

i would say overall, corporations are run far superior than the government. no corporation could survive the massive debt load and reckless spending that the government indulges in every single year.

I'd disagree 100%....otherwise, after 8 years of de-regulated corporatocracy, our economy wouldn't have been such a mess.

as to blackwater...why do diplomats, including US senators, choose blackwater over us military for their protection over there?

over where? Iraq? You mean where they aren't allowed to operate anymore and changed their name to Xe because the locals object to being used for target practice by testosterone overloaded and unregulated mercenaries?

 

[Yurt]

you compared a small sampling of businesses...

It's not a small sampling... it's a sampling which represents the difference

the anti-govt folk want everyone to think anything govt run is like waiting on line at DMV (which is state operated, btw).

i would say overall, corporations are run far superior than the government. no corporation could survive the massive debt load and reckless spending that the government indulges in every single year.

I'd disagree 100%....otherwise, after 8 years of de-regulated corporatocracy, our economy wouldn't have been such a mess.

as to blackwater...why do diplomats, including US senators, choose blackwater over us military for their protection over there?

I don't believe that to be the case.

you listed 3 corporations jillian...how is that not a small sampling? our economy is not in a mess solely due to deregulation. there a myriad of factors, not the least of which is people spending money they don't have.

you don't believe it to be the case...lol, ok, who does the state dept use to protect diplomats world wide jillian? who does the state dept use to protect diplomats in iraq jillian?

 

[Annie]

you compared a small sampling of businesses...

It's not a small sampling... it's a sampling which represents the difference

the anti-govt folk want everyone to think anything govt run is like waiting on line at DMV (which is state operated, btw).



I'd disagree 100%....otherwise, after 8 years of de-regulated corporatocracy, our economy wouldn't have been such a mess.

as to blackwater...why do diplomats, including US senators, choose blackwater over us military for their protection over there?

I don't believe that to be the case.

you listed 3 corporations jillian...how is that not a small sampling? our economy is not in a mess solely due to deregulation. there a myriad of factors, not the least of which is people spending money they don't have.

you don't believe it to be the case...lol, ok, who does the state dept use to protect diplomats world wide jillian? who does the state dept use to protect diplomats in iraq jillian?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/magazine/17wwln-lede-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine

May 17, 2009
THE WAY WE LIVE NOW
Diminished Returns

By NIALL FERGUSON
If financial crises were distributed along a bell curve — like traffic accidents or people’s heights — really big ones wouldn’t happen very often. When the hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management lost 44 percent of its value in August 1998, its managers were flabbergasted. According to their value-at-risk models, a loss of this magnitude in a single month was so unlikely that it ought never to have happened in the entire life of the universe. Just over a decade later, many more of us now know what it’s like to lose 44 percent of our money. Even after the recent stock-market rally, that’s about how much the Standard & Poor’s 500 index is down compared with October 2007.

Financial crises will happen. In the 1340s, a sovereign-debt crisis wiped out the leading Florentine banks of Bardi, Peruzzi and Acciaiuoli. Between December 1719 and December 1720, the price of shares in John Law’s Mississippi Company fell 90 percent. Such crashes can also happen to real estate: in Japan, property prices fell by more than 60 percent during the ’90s.

For reasons to do with human psychology and the failure of most educational institutions to teach financial history, we are always more amazed when such things happen than we should be. As a result, 9 times out of 10 we overreact. The usual response is to introduce a raft of new laws and regulations designed to prevent the crisis from repeating itself. In the months ahead, the world will reverberate to the sound of stable doors being shut long after the horses have bolted, and history suggests that many of the new measures will do more harm than good. The classic example is the legislation passed during the British South-Sea Bubble to restrict the formation of joint-stock companies. The so-called Bubble Act of 1720 remained a needless handicap on the British economy for more than a century.

Human beings are as good at devising ex post facto explanations for big disasters as they are bad at anticipating those disasters. It is indeed impressive how rapidly the economists who failed to predict this crisis — or predicted the wrong crisis (a dollar crash) — have been able to produce such a satisfying story about its origins. Yes, it was all the fault of deregulation.

There are just three problems with this story. First, deregulation began quite a while ago (the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act was passed in 1980). If deregulation is to blame for the recession that began in December 2007, presumably it should also get some of the credit for the intervening growth. Second, the much greater financial regulation of the 1970s failed to prevent the United States from suffering not only double-digit inflation in that decade but also a recession (between 1973 and 1975) every bit as severe and protracted as the one we’re in now. Third, the continental Europeans — who supposedly have much better-regulated financial sectors than the United States — have even worse problems in their banking sector than we do. The German government likes to wag its finger disapprovingly at the “Anglo Saxon” financial model, but last year average bank leverage was four times higher in Germany than in the United States. Schadenfreude will be in order when the German banking crisis strikes.

We need to remember that much financial innovation over the past 30 years was economically beneficial, and not just to the fat cats of Wall Street. New vehicles like hedge funds gave investors like pension funds and endowments vastly more to choose from than the time-honored choice among cash, bonds and stocks. Likewise, innovations like securitization lowered borrowing costs for most consumers. And the globalization of finance played a crucial role in raising growth rates in emerging markets, particularly in Asia, propelling hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

The reality is that crises are more often caused by bad regulation than by deregulation....[/QUOTE]

 

[Meister]

the anti-govt folk want everyone to think anything govt run is like waiting on line at DMV (which is state operated, btw).

Jillian, our Veterans Administration Hospitals are run just that way. This is the part that really makes me second guess any type of national healthcare from our governement. I am all for the government to be part of the solution with healthcare, but private enterprise is the key for a successful healthcare.
I certainly don't want my coverage to be cut back due to age, or certain afflictions with my health. This is certainly a possibility with our government.
I just look at social security, medicare, and welfare with all the overages, fraud, and lobbyists, to where I can come to my conclusion.

 

[MaggieMae]

The ability of the government to do things right is seldom seen as a possibility let alone a probability. Essentially all universal health coverage does is replace lawyers with bureaucrats at best and at worst gives us more of each.

Once again, for the umpteenth time, THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE. This is NOT what Congress will be debating.

 

[MaggieMae]

Owwwwww, that one is going to leave a mark.

"Wall Street" (i.e., corporations who invest) will navigate to whichever party is in power. Why on earth would they do otherwise? Hello??? Is the losing party going to grant them favors?

thanks for making my point.

The question becomes what has been granted for their efforts? Do you know of something? If so, please share.

 

[del]

"Wall Street" (i.e., corporations who invest) will navigate to whichever party is in power. Why on earth would they do otherwise? Hello??? Is the losing party going to grant them favors?

thanks for making my point.

The question becomes what has been granted for their efforts? Do you know of something? If so, please share.

i'm sure they expect nothing in return.

virtue is its own reward.

 

[MaggieMae]

Informative post, Bfgrn.


But it doesn't matter how many times you correct the mtyhology of some of these people, they are going to continue to insist things which are not true, anyway.

Like for example, everyone who is poor gets medicade.

Or that every hospital will accept medicade patients.

Or that most people are satisfied with the health coverage they're getting at work.

Or that nobody in America ever dies due to the pisspoor insurance they have.

They'll keep lying because that's all they have, mostly.

Lies that they find comforting. Lies designed to make them feel comfortable, and lies that make them feel superior to others

Lies that make them feel good about themselves, basically. That's why they embrace them so tenaciously, too.

They're tools, and they know it.

And that is why they hate people who aren't tools, you know.

Slaves, even slaves that sold themselves into bondage like most of these tools have, simply hate people who don't wear that slaves' collar.

If a healthcare bill is going to be passed, we need it to be done right. It does need to be done with a bipartisan effort. Obama is OK with no republican input, just to get it done in his timeline. I'm sure nan, and harry would want it this way, also. Unfortunatley, politicians egos get in the way of good legislation. This is a bill that needs to be done right the first time, with a lot of thought process. We can't afford to keep trying. I don't think anyone would want it pushed through like the TARP, and the stimulus packages. There was no transparency in these bills. If it is pushed through, and shoved down our throats...we will probably end up getting a Veteran Administration type of healthcare coverage. This is government at its worst. If it isn't done right, both sides of the isle will suffer from it.

We just witnessed how incompetent Federal government is. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac a government controlled program--is GROUND ZERO for this economic collapse. Right now--every day 2100 homes are being foreclosed upon. Social Security/Medicare is on the brink of collapse.

Now can you imagine what our incompetent Federal Government would do with health care in this country? The federal government creates disasters--when Americans start realising that "Government is not the solution--they're the problem"--is when we will get competitive free market solutions to health care & all of our other problems.

Look at California today--this is where the entire nation is headed.

California isn't the only one in trouble, just the biggest. I think the last I read, 32 states were in the red, and it is difficult for the states to borrow in order to fill the voids. Many states are collecting significantly less revenue than they had counted on when they drafted their budgets. They weren’t planning on the loss in sales tax, corporate income tax and personal income tax that came along with the downturn in the economy.

Sometimes I don't think a lot of you have a clue what's really been happening in this economy. You just shout out a bunch of repititious platitudes and think you've got the solutions to everything. So how exactly are your ideas helping if you're so much wiser? Oh wait...you have no ideas to contribute, just meaningless drivel.

 

[MaggieMae]

thanks for making my point.

The question becomes what has been granted for their efforts? Do you know of something? If so, please share.

i'm sure they expect nothing in return.

virtue is its own reward.

Nice spin. Translation: I can't think of a damned thing.

 

[del]

The question becomes what has been granted for their efforts? Do you know of something? If so, please share.

i'm sure they expect nothing in return.

virtue is its own reward.

Nice spin. Translation: I can't think of a damned thing.

nice spin. translation: he's right.

try the grape. the joneses swear by it.

 

[Meister]

If a healthcare bill is going to be passed, we need it to be done right. It does need to be done with a bipartisan effort. Obama is OK with no republican input, just to get it done in his timeline. I'm sure nan, and harry would want it this way, also. Unfortunatley, politicians egos get in the way of good legislation. This is a bill that needs to be done right the first time, with a lot of thought process. We can't afford to keep trying. I don't think anyone would want it pushed through like the TARP, and the stimulus packages. There was no transparency in these bills. If it is pushed through, and shoved down our throats...we will probably end up getting a Veteran Administration type of healthcare coverage. This is government at its worst. If it isn't done right, both sides of the isle will suffer from it.

We just witnessed how incompetent Federal government is. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac a government controlled program--is GROUND ZERO for this economic collapse. Right now--every day 2100 homes are being foreclosed upon. Social Security/Medicare is on the brink of collapse.

Now can you imagine what our incompetent Federal Government would do with health care in this country? The federal government creates disasters--when Americans start realising that "Government is not the solution--they're the problem"--is when we will get competitive free market solutions to health care & all of our other problems.

Look at California today--this is where the entire nation is headed.

California isn't the only one in trouble, just the biggest. I think the last I read, 32 states were in the red, and it is difficult for the states to borrow in order to fill the voids. Many states are collecting significantly less revenue than they had counted on when they drafted their budgets. They weren’t planning on the loss in sales tax, corporate income tax and personal income tax that came along with the downturn in the economy.

Sometimes I don't think a lot of you have a clue what's really been happening in this economy. You just shout out a bunch of repititious platitudes and think you've got the solutions to everything. So how exactly are your ideas helping if you're so much wiser? Oh wait...you have no ideas to contribute, just meaningless drivel.

Nor do you maggie....like I said before, if I was getting paid to do the job, it would have been done. Your just being a partisan hack when you state the crap you do. You haven't a clue either. My idea is watching the tax payers money to make sure it's spent prudently. Yours is to throw it out there "willy nilly" and hope for the best. Just like your democratic politicians. So quit coming off like your in the know

 

[garyd]

Jillian we didn't deregulate anything. There are as many rules and regs now as there were before Bush took office. This wasn't caused by corporations this was caused by a perfect storm of regulation from the lowest level of government to the highest. neighbor hood rules that saw to it that house in a certain neighbor hood had to be at least a given number of square feet to the never ending pressure from the feds on mortgage companies to put out more and more loans to people for house they couldn't afford simply because we don't build small cheap homes anymore because everything from city building codes and zoning laws to federal redlining laws have pushed us inexorably to bigger pricier homes. I've been in the peripherals of the home building business for about half my life. The system is broken and it is broken far worse than anyone surmises just yet. And the current set of bandaids aren't going to do much for a situation that has been approaching the catastrophic for years.

 

[MaggieMae]

We just witnessed how incompetent Federal government is. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac a government controlled program--is GROUND ZERO for this economic collapse. Right now--every day 2100 homes are being foreclosed upon. Social Security/Medicare is on the brink of collapse.

Now can you imagine what our incompetent Federal Government would do with health care in this country? The federal government creates disasters--when Americans start realising that "Government is not the solution--they're the problem"--is when we will get competitive free market solutions to health care & all of our other problems.

Look at California today--this is where the entire nation is headed.

California isn't the only one in trouble, just the biggest. I think the last I read, 32 states were in the red, and it is difficult for the states to borrow in order to fill the voids. Many states are collecting significantly less revenue than they had counted on when they drafted their budgets. They weren’t planning on the loss in sales tax, corporate income tax and personal income tax that came along with the downturn in the economy.

Sometimes I don't think a lot of you have a clue what's really been happening in this economy. You just shout out a bunch of repititious platitudes and think you've got the solutions to everything. So how exactly are your ideas helping if you're so much wiser? Oh wait...you have no ideas to contribute, just meaningless drivel.

Nor do you maggie....like I said before, if I was getting paid to do the job, it would have been done. Your just being a partisan hack when you state the crap you do. You haven't a clue either. My idea is watching the tax payers money to make sure it's spent prudently. Yours is to throw it out there "willy nilly" and hope for the best. Just like your democratic politicians. So quit coming off like your in the know

When did I say I was "in the know"?? I've simply said I understand what needed to be done in order to stave off a complete collapse of the economy. Apparently you do not.

If you're so good at watching to make sure the taxpxpayers' money is spent prudently, where were you and others like you for the last 8 years? Perhaps you were doing your best, but obviously that wasn't good enough. So now you're ready to lay the entire blame on the current administration? Is that because the old familiar "tax and spend liberals" label fits better for communicating the right's political agenda? In a way, that's true: It is more difficult to convince an unenlightened public that the traditionally tax-friendly "conservatives" were, in fact, bamboozling us with a don't-tax-but-spend-anyway agenda.

And one more thing--how come I keep getting accused of being a partisan "hack"?? What makes me any more of a "hack" than you are? Or any of the others who have opposing positions? Is the term "hack" supposed to mean something more ominous?

 

[garyd]

Maggie delaying the inevitable by a few months is not a good thing and make make it worse.

 

[MaggieMae]

Jillian we didn't deregulate anything. There are as many rules and regs now as there were before Bush took office. This wasn't caused by corporations this was caused by a perfect storm of regulation from the lowest level of government to the highest. neighbor hood rules that saw to it that house in a certain neighbor hood had to be at least a given number of square feet to the never ending pressure from the feds on mortgage companies to put out more and more loans to people for house they couldn't afford simply because we don't build small cheap homes anymore because everything from city building codes and zoning laws to federal redlining laws have pushed us inexorably to bigger pricier homes. I've been in the peripherals of the home building business for about half my life. The system is broken and it is broken far worse than anyone surmises just yet. And the current set of bandaids aren't going to do much for a situation that has been approaching the catastrophic for years.

I think you're citing only one piece of the puzzle. What caused the FINANCIAL collapse was not building standards, but lack of regulatory oversight, to which Alan Greenspan has admitted, as has Christopher Cox.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/b...mc_ev=click&WT.mc_id=BI-S-E-GG-NA-S-greenspan

[Greenspan] noted that the immense and largely unregulated business of spreading financial risk widely, through the use of exotic financial instruments called derivatives, had gotten out of control and had added to the havoc of today’s crisis. As far back as 1994, Mr. Greenspan staunchly and successfully opposed tougher regulation on derivatives.

But on Thursday, he agreed that the multitrillion-dollar market for credit default swaps, instruments originally created to insure bond investors against the risk of default, needed to be restrained.

“This modern risk-management paradigm held sway for decades,” he said. “The whole intellectual edifice, however, collapsed in the summer of last year.”

 

[MaggieMae]

i'm sure they expect nothing in return.

virtue is its own reward.

Nice spin. Translation: I can't think of a damned thing.

nice spin. translation: he's right.

try the grape. the joneses swear by it.

Nah, Kool-aid sucks, even spiked with vodka. You might try it in one of your own RED flavors, though.

 

[MaggieMae]

Maggie delaying the inevitable by a few months is not a good thing and make make it worse.

Do you use a crystal ball? How do you know these things? You don't.