Zone1 The abortion debate - Understanding Both Sides

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Do women who have abortions have the right to deny getting the Covid Vaccine

Yes, and they always have. Duh.

 

[Leweman]

Yes, and they always have. Duh.

Without repercussions right?

 

[Couchpotato]

Maybe more people would become Christians in America and stop fornicating if the so-called Christians were actually Christians. With few exceptions, you're all just a bunch of lawless hypocrites. In your perfect world, women would only get pregnant when they're ready to be mothers. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. We live in a place where people are struggling to survive and most "Christians" in America don't give a hoot about the poor or working class. All they care about is their own good, not that of others. It's just a lot of "talk" with them, no action.W

Why are you bringing religion into this? Do you think people are intentionally getting pregnant and having abortions to piss of the local Christian church because they were mean to them or something? Im not sure what a belief in God or not has to do with a person's refusal to be responsible and not get pregnant if they dont want children.

 

[Couchpotato]

How does an infant magically become an adult? If something or someone possesses certain attributes and properties then it's reasonable to identify that thing or person with whatever those qualities are determined to define. If society determines that to be an adult one must be 18 years old, then we should be at least that age and if there are other qualifying qualities, we must meet those qualifications to be considered adults. Who determines in our society when one is an adult? Society, the community, determines through its values and culture, what something is and isn't. We define and label things as individuals and as a community, in order to facilitate constructive interaction and relationships in the world that contribute to our survival and wellbeing.

So when does a zygote become an embryo and when does an embryo become a fetus and when does a fetus in the womb become a human being or baby in the womb? That's up to people to decide (i.e. society). I'm not for women willy-nilly getting an abortion eight months gestation, that's wrong, if not outright murder. If what is in her stomach is viable, healthy, and able to live outside of the womb with a little help from society, then I see it as immoral, if not a crime for a woman to kill an eight-month fetus. We still call it a fetus, even when it's been eight months in the womb, but that's in my opinion and in the opinion of most health professionals, a pre-natal human being with a brain, most likely with a degree of consciousness and the ability to experience pain. So I would be against such abortions. Why didn't she get an abortion earlier, why now eight months into gestation? Just because she feels like it? No, I'm against those types of abortions. 93% of all abortions occur before 15 weeks. The remaining abortions occur due to medical reasons, with the exception of 1% of late-term abortions. So-called "willy-nilly" late-term abortions are practically unheard of. It occurs, but it's extremely rare.

So when do we determine that a fetus is a pre-natal human being (a.k.a. baby)? That's up to society to decide. I believe viability is part of it, the ability of what is in the womb to survive outside of it, without the woman. I also would add a brain and a few other properties with that, including the amount of time in the womb. Society can come to a reasonable definition of what constitutes a pre-natal baby. I'm for that. but what I'm not for is pre-tending that a zygote or embryo or even a fetus in the earliest stages of development has rights comparable to that of an actual human being, namely, the woman that conceived it. I prioritize, at the beginning of pregnancy, the rights, needs, and interests of the woman (the actual human being), not what she has in her womb (i.e. body). She has sovereignty over her pregnancy, her reproductive system, and her body, early in the pregnancy. The more that the life in her womb develops into a human being, the less sovereignty she has to determine the course of her pregnancy.


Conservatives, especially the religious ones, completely disregard the needs and interests of the pregnant female. For them, it's all about the life in her womb, not the life of the woman. She's the human being that is pregnant and many of these religious conservatives completely dismiss the woman's concerns. Women can lose their jobs, their ability to support themselves financially, when they're pregnant. These same conservatives passionately argue for the rights of fetuses (they're the champions of fetuses), showing so much concern for pre-natal life, but then express that they have no responsibility for what is born from that pregnancy. The mother must bear the cost of pregnancy and the expense of raising her child, alone.

Where is the same love and concern that conservatives so vocally and passionately expressed for the zygote, embryo or fetus, for the baby and his or her mother? These conservatives vote for Republican politicians that often defund government social programs that help single mothers raise their children. These programs provide housing assistance, foodstamps, job training, employment opportunities, daycare vouchers, school lunches, after-school care, school supplies and clothing for the children..etc. Why are these "born again" and "spirit filled" Pentecostals and Southern Baptists, FOX News conservatives, so passionately championing, supporting and defending the lives of zygotes, embryos and fetuses, yet showing so much contempt and flippant disregard for the needs of single mothers and their babies? This is not the spirit of YHWH or His Son, these "Christian" conservatives are not the true disciples of Jesus Christ. The Living God cares not just for fetuses, but for the women and their babies as well. They're hypocrites.

When I was younger and homeless, the Christian homeless shelters would only provide me with the help that I needed to get back on my feet, if I joined the Christian discipleship program. I wasn't interested at the time in religion or spirituality. I had to sign in for my bed at the shelter by 5pm, so that meant I had to be standing in line for at least 30 minutes before that. How is a homeless person suppose to find a job, if they have to be back at the shelter by 4:30pm? There was poor security in the shelters, people using drugs and playing music all night. People coughing on you with TB, farting, stinky feet..etc. That's the solution to homelessness in America? These supposed Christians claim the church should run all of the social programs. That doesn't work. The so called "church", has way too many people worshiping money and the "good life" in this world. They're spiritually dead and unable to solve these social ills. They don't obey The Son of The Living God. They're not filled with the Holy Ghost and Power. The VA got me out of homelessness. The US federal government, not the "church" (i.e. circus).


We need our government to serve the people, and that includes single mothers and their babies. Don't pretend to care about zygotes and embryos when you're so indifferent to the needs of single mothers and their children.

You took 7 paragraphs to say, well it's always a human it's just inconvenient for my argument if we call it a human when it's an embryo....

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Without repercussions right?

Irrelevant. Having a right to do something doesn't mean having a right to be free of any and all consequences. Else you could tell your boss to fuck himself and then sue him, when you get fired.

 

[Red Front]

Do women who have abortions have the right to deny getting the Covid Vaccine. Granted the vaccine has been a huge failure (as predicted, like everything else democrat) but many people lost their jobs because of it. Does this apply though?

The vast majority of people in hospitals now and dying are unvaccinated. A woman having the right to determine whether she remains pregnant or not at least early in the pregnancy has nothing to do with her refusing to become vaccinated and putting others at risk of contracting a deadly virus. A private business or a government has the right to require its employees to vaccinate themselves, especially in the middle of a nationwide, deadly pandemic.

 

[Couchpotato]

Irrelevant. Having a right to do something doesn't mean having a right to be free of any and all consequences. Else you could tell your boss to fuck himself and then sue him, when you get fired.

Pretty sure we are talking government repercussions.

 

[Couchpotato]

How is the vaccine? The vast majority of people in hospitals now and dying are unvaccinated. A woman having the right to determine whether she remains pregnant or not at least early in the pregnancy has nothing to do with her refusing to become vaccinated and putting others at risk of contracting a deadly virus. A private business or a government has the right to require its employees to vaccinate themselves, especially in the middle of a nationwide, deadly pandemic.

100% of abortions end with someone dead. 99% of people who dont get a covid vaccine dont die, of COVID anyway... So there's that.

 

[Red Front]

You took 7 paragraphs to say, well it's always a human it's just inconvenient for my argument if we call it a human when it's an embryo....

You missed the point, like always, but others won't.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Pretty sure we are talking government repercussions.

Indeed!

Who was jailed or fined for not getting vaccinated?

Correct answer: nobody

 

[Couchpotato]

Indeed!

Who was jailed or fined for not getting vaccinated?

Correct answer: nobody

I didn't say they were. Your example of telling your boss to fuck off wasn't pertinent to the conversation regarding repercussions. There are plenty of government workers who dont have their jobs who think there were repercussions though I bet.

 

[Couchpotato]

You missed the point, like always, but others won't.

No I got your point. It's just a bad one.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I didn't say they were.

I know.i made my very own big boy point.

You should try it!

And my analogy was spot on.

 

[Red Front]

100% of abortions end with someone dead. 99% of people who dont get a covid vaccine dont die... So there's that.

A zygote or embryo isn't "someone" yet. It's a potential someone, even according to the Hebrew Bible, which you claim is the word of God. More than half a million Americans have died from Covid. Actual human beings, not zygotes and embryos. Your 1% mortality figure is inaccurate, it's more like 2.5% in the US. About 18% of people who get infected need hospitalization and the mortality figure only applies if they get medical treatment. If we would've ignored COVID which is essentially what you country bumpkins want to do, the mortality rate would soar to around 12%. The hospitals would become overwhelmed with patients unable to get the medical care they need to survive the sickness. So now you're looking at a much higher mortality rate. That's what you "conservatives" fail to realize. You're all just a bunch of miscreant sociopaths unable to live in human society.

 

[Red Front]

No I got your point. It's just a bad one.

You ignore all of the points and just keep repeating your nonesense.

 

[Couchpotato]

I know.i made my very own big boy point.

You should try it!

And my analogy was spot on.

How? Me telling my boss to fuck off has nothing to do with a Government bringing repercussions down on me. Unless your analogy was simply there are repercussions for you actions. To which I would agree. You know like getting pregnant is a repercussion of having sex......

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Me telling my boss to fuck off has nothing to do with a Government bringing repercussions down on me

Right, you're finally catching g up.

Just as there were no gubmint repercussions to not getting vaccinated.

As appropriately pointed out in response to the original question asked.

 

[Couchpotato]

A zygote or embryo isn't "someone" yet. It's a potential someone, even according to the Hebrew Bible, which you claim is the word of God. More than half a million Americans have died from Covid. Actual human beings, not zygotes and embryos. Your 1% mortality figure is inaccurate, it's more like 2.5% in the US. About 18% of people who get infected need hospitalization and the mortality figure only applies if they get medical treatment. If we would've ignored COVID which is essentially what you country bumpkins want to do, the mortality rate would soar to around 12%. The hospitals would become overwhelmed with patients unable to get the medical care they need to survive the sickness. So now you're looking at a much higher mortality rate. That's what you "conservatives" fail to realize. You're all just a bunch of miscreant sociopaths unable to live in human society.

You can try to make that argument but it terrible.

You are really bad at math. For there to be a mortality rate of 2.5% only 40 million people could have been infected in the US. Do you believe that only 12% of the US population has had COVID?

 

[Red Front]

How? Me telling my boss to fuck off has nothing to do with a Government bringing repercussions down on me. Unless your analogy was simply there are repercussions for you actions. To which I would agree. You know like getting pregnant is a repercussion of having sex......

No one gives a shit how you feel about life in other people's wombs, especially when that life is just a zygote or embryo, or an undeveloped fetus. You're a fucking hypocrite, pretending to be so concerned with life in people's wombs but then not giving a rat's ass about the baby and her mother. Just like you flippantly disregard the needs and concerns of pregnant women or single mothers and their children, society should disregard your religious opinion regarding life in the womb. Go fuck yourself.

 

[Couchpotato]

Right, you're finally catching g up.

Just as there were no gubmint repercussions to not getting vaccinated.

As appropriately pointed out in response to the original question asked.

Except losing your job if you were a Government employee right?

BTW I love how you quote only parts of what Im saying so you dont have to actually deal with what Im saying...