The 5th column

[deaddude]

I find it difficult to believe that if the weapons were realy proven to be in Syria that the information would be restricted to this one site. If there are others than give me their addresses. You can put anything on the web.

And it doesnt matter who they say they are, I told you a didnt know PJ didnt make it true. Im sorry but I'm still skeptical.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by deaddude
I find it difficult to believe that if the weapons were realy proven to be in Syria that the information would be restricted to this one site. If there are others than give me their addresses. You can put anything on the web.

And it doesnt matter who they say they are, I told you a didnt know PJ didnt make it true. Im sorry but I'm still skeptical.

Debka has credibility if you cross reference as I said. You don't need many other sources, and I don't care if you are skeptical or not. They have far more credibility than an IP adress and they have been around a while.

Wether you accept proof or not is up to how much research you do. If you choose not to investigate, and then doubt, that is your issue, not mine.

 

[deaddude]

I would be suprised if we did not have Iraq under constant satalite survailence during the months leading up to the war. If we could spot nukes in Cuba during the missle crisis then I'd bet we could spot the Iraqis diging a bigass hole.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by deaddude
I would be suprised if we did not have Iraq under constant satalite survailence during the months leading up to the war. If we could spot nukes in Cuba during the missle crisis then I'd bet we could spot the Iraqis diging a bigass hole.

NOW you are beginning to get it.

Keep looking at things like that technology, and you will soon find there is not any politician in office TRULY in control of anything.

Funny how Germany and America both had their economies' banking system set up by 1 family. Paul and Max Warburg- both brothers set up fractionalized banking. They worked for the same company, an American one.

This company in question wanted to move money around and decided to do it by moving munitions. Right then, we experienced WWII.

Do some digging on THAT one.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by deaddude
Exactly, thats why I said the Intel was mistaken, not the President. And it is true that the search isnt over, but I do think that 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent and the upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Might have been a slight over estimate. That much of anything becomes difficult to hide.

I think you're forgetting one very important part, or are misinformed. Plenty of that stuff was accounted for in 1998 before inspectors were asked to leave. When they returned it simply disappeared. It was up to Iraq to prove that it was destroyed or account for it. They never did.

I suggest you read the ENTIRE reports by both Blix and Kay.

 

[jimnyc]

And here's some documentation for you to read about those very chemical weapons:

http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

 

[sitarro]

Originally posted by deaddude
I would be suprised if we did not have Iraq under constant satalite survailence during the months leading up to the war. If we could spot nukes in Cuba during the missle crisis then I'd bet we could spot the Iraqis diging a bigass hole.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/8/6/105528.shtml

It wouldn't take too many 18 wheelers to carry tons of bio or chemicals . Those same 18 wheelers could easily be underground in chambers that were created years ago . Didn't you see the photographs of the Mig fighters , around 30 of them , that were buried in the sand and were not found until a sand storm revealed a vertical fin . 30 Migs could wreak havoc on loaded airliners or carry missles that could destroy aircraft carriers , that would be over 5000 people in one shot .I think those alone qualify as mass destruction weapons . The point is that these fighters were buried and our satellites missed that . If an underground hiding place is prepared correctly one could just drive a number of 18 wheelers underground undetected , especially in a sand storm .

 

[deaddude]

Thank you for the link Jimnyc, I had not seen that report and it was very informative. Also, Sitarro your explanations of how satellites could have missed the aforementiioned bigass hole are plausible and acceptable.

However in the Link you gave me all of those estimates were given in the form of 0-maximum suspected amount. In his state of the Union Bush told us the maximums, he never said that his intelligence reports included the possibility of 0, however small it might be, which is plain throughout this report. Now that would not be a Lie because he used the word estimates, but it is not telling the whole truth.

However I also must agree that Hussien does share the majority of the resonsablitiy for the war. If he had the wmd then he should have admitted it and gotten rid of them under UN supervision.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by deaddude
Thank you for the link Jimnyc, I had not seen that report and it was very informative. Also, Sitarro your explanations of how satellites could have missed the aforementiioned bigass hole are plausible and acceptable.

However in the Link you gave me all of those estimates were given in the form of 0-maximum suspected amount. In his state of the Union Bush told us the maximums, he never said that his intelligence reports included the possibility of 0, however small it might be, which is plain throughout this report. Now that would not be a Lie because he used the word estimates, but it is not telling the whole truth.

None of that changes the fact that chemical weapons WERE accounted for and visually seen by inspectors in 1998. They disappeared by the time inspectors came back. What happened to them? Why did Iraq refuse repeatedly to provide there whereabouts or proof of their destruction?

 

[insein]

Originally posted by jimnyc
None of that changes the fact that chemical weapons WERE accounted for and visually seen by inspectors in 1998. They disappeared by the time inspectors came back. What happened to them? Why did Iraq refuse repeatedly to provide there whereabouts or proof of their destruction?

Seriously. If Sadaam had simply destroyed them and given proof, then there would have been no need to go into Iraq. Sadaam would still be in power until he fucked up on something and his sons Uday and Kusay would still be alive to rape and murder all the iraqis they want.

 

[jimnyc]

"The outstanding questions remained, however – well known to Iraq -- concerning anthrax, the nerve agent VX and long-range missiles. Iraqi documents, for example, left some 1,000 tons of chemical agents unaccounted for and the issue must be resolved either by presenting such items for elimination, or by presenting convincing evidence that they had been eliminated."

Is the UN a reliable enough source?

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7664.doc.htm

 

[insein]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Is the UN a reliable enough source?

There in lies the real question.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by insein
There in lies the real question.

Actually, the problem is that there were too many questions, and the most important ones went unanswered. They had plenty of time to answer these questions, somebody had to go in and forcibly make sure the threat disappeared - and they did.

 

[jimnyc]

Chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix has said Iraq's new declaration contains little information that had not been declared by Baghdad before 1998 when UN arms experts were last in Iraq.

The US and UK have long had concerns about what is described as unaccounted for chemical, biological and nuclear material. Their assessments were partly based on a report by the weapons inspections organisation Unscom, predecessor to Unmovic.

In early 1999, Unscom gave the Security Council its own assessment of what Iraq had destroyed and what remained unaccounted for.

The US and UK want a full explanation of what happened to the following:

* 360 tonnes of chemical warfare agents, including 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent;

* 3,000 tonnes of chemical precursors (which are developed into chemical weapons) including 300 tonnes uniquely used for VX.

The 1999 Unscom report said:

"According to Iraq, 1.5 tonnes of VX were discarded unilaterally by dumping on the ground. Traces of one VX-degradation product and a chemical known as a VX-stabilizer were found in the samples taken from the VX dump sites. A quantified assessment is not possible."


Biological

Britain and America want to know about:

# Growth media for 20,000 litres of biological warfare agents. Any Iraqi claims that this will have degenerated will not be accepted as mustard gas found in shells in 1997 was active;

# Shells for use in biological warfare - 20,000 are missing say the British, 15,000 say the Americans;

Unscom said in 1999:

"The commission has little or no confidence in Iraq's accounting for proscribed items for which physical evidence is lacking or inconclusive, documentation is sparse or nonexistent, and coherence and consistency is lacking.

These include, for example: quantities and types of munitions available for biological weapons (BW) filling; quantities and types of munitions filled with BW agents; quantities and type of bulk agents produced; quantities of bulk agents used in filling; quantities of bulk agents destroyed; quantities of growth media acquired for the programme; and quantities of growth media used/consumed.

In addition, the commission has no confidence that all bulk agents have been destroyed; that no BW munitions or weapons remain in Iraq; and that a BW capability does not still exist in Iraq."

Chemical warfare munitions

Washington and London demand disclosure on:

# 6,000 chemical warfare bombs.

Unscom said:

The commission has accepted the destruction of about 34,000 munitions on the basis of multiple sources, including physical evidence, documents provided by Iraq etc. However, it has not been possible to achieve a numerical accounting of destroyed munitions due to heavy bomb damage of the CW storage facilities, where these munitions had been stored during the Gulf war. The destruction of about 2,000 unfilled munitions remain uncertain, 550 filled munitions remain unaccounted for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2590265.stm

 

[deaddude]

"Actually, the problem is that there were too many questions, and the most important ones went unanswered. They had plenty of time to answer these questions, somebody had to go in and forcibly make sure the threat disappeared - and they did."

Yes that particular threat dissapeared but we have other threats, and not all of them are as obvious as Al Queada and Iraq. Nor will they be as easily delt with.

Now I'll accept that the war in Iraq was eventualy neccesary, if only to remove a Stalinisitc dictator, however, it wasnt the most opportune time for it to happen. Perhaps after a few more months of Saddam Interfereing with inspections would have won over more international support. The United States already has anough enemies, we dont need to antagonize Europe and the entire Middle East as well.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by deaddude
Yes that particular threat dissapeared but we have other threats, and not all of them are as obvious as Al Queada and Iraq. Nor will they be as easily delt with.

Now I'll accept that the war in Iraq was eventualy neccesary, if only to remove a Stalinisitc dictator, however, it wasnt the most opportune time for it to happen. Perhaps after a few more months of Saddam Interfereing with inspections would have won over more international support. The United States already has anough enemies, we dont need to antagonize Europe and the entire Middle East as well.

I agree we don't need to make enemies of allies. But, who's to say additional months would have provided results. And additional time 'could' have proven to be disastrous. Iraq knew they were teetering on the edge of war since 1998 and spent the next 5 years playing cat and mouse games with inspectors. I don't see a point in allowing them more time to possibly hide and/or use weapons.

 

[deaddude]

I agree that time was somthing that we didnt have alot of but sometimes you have to way that risk with the need for diplomatic support. It also seems that they didnt need any more time to hide the stuff. If its there at all, it seems to be well hidden.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by deaddude
I agree that time was somthing that we didnt have alot of but sometimes you have to way that risk with the need for diplomatic support. It also seems that they didnt need any more time to hide the stuff. If its there at all, it seems to be well hidden.

Or moved...

Jordan made a WMD bust within the past few weeks. It's been verified those weapons came from Syria. Where has the US stated Iraq moved some of their banned weapons to from day#1?

I admit there's no concrete proof, but you have to admit it's all a bit suspicious. I'd really love to know what happened to all those chemical weapons that were accounted for in '98. I hope we, or one of our allies, don't find out the hard way.

 

[deaddude]

Admited in the suspicion and agreed on the hope

 

[Palestinian Jew]

NewGuy, debka.com looks like an interesting site, but I couldn't find the reporting about weapons into Syria. I clicked on the history of the US-Iraq war, then I went to day 1, then clicked "in full" and I came up with nothing. Its such a big site you'll have to give me a direct link.