Tamir rice (12 year-old boy) shooting "justified," experts say.

[MikeK]

Two consultants on police training and performance, a former prosecutor and a former FBI agent, have concluded the shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12 year-old Cleveland Black was "reasonable and justified." This opinion will be entered in evidence in the forthcoming trial of the cop who shot Rice and the outcome of the trial could be critical in terms of reaction by Cleveland's Black community.

Tamir Rice shooting was 'reasonable,' two experts conclude - CNN.com

What is your opinion?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Was this one where he was pulling the bb gun on passers by in a park? Woulda shot him myself.

 

[TNHarley]

I agree

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Easy to second guess long after the fact when you have a helluva lot more info than the officer in question did. But if all you have is "black male threatening people in a park" and arriving on the scene see the black male holding a gun, what you're gonna do is revert to your training where you have a fraction of a second to make a decision.

If you wait, you, your partner, or some innocent passer-by may get shot and killed.

Law's very clear. Suspect displays a weapon you can shoot them.

 

[MikeK]

Was this one where he was pulling the bb gun on passers by in a park? Woulda shot him myself.

I understand your position and I am not necessarily opposed to it, but the ultimate concern is whether or not police should be more circumspect in the use of deadly force.

The video shows the police car pulling up close to Rice, one cop exits and almost immediately shoots Rice. Would you say that, under all the known circumstances, the shooting was avoidable?

Rice was sitting on the bench when the police car arrived. The driver could have parked more strategically and the cops could have exited, taken up a safe position behind the car and, with guns drawn and trained on Rice, ordered him to lie down -- which seems to be current standard police procedure.

So the bottom-line question is, regardless of your feelings in this specific example, do you think it's generally okay for police to behave so precipitously? Or do you feel they should have behaved more cautiously and attempted to better assess the situation?

Keep in mind the issue here is not your personal feelings toward Rice but whether the careless behavior of "cowboy cops" represents a danger to society in general.

 

[waltky]

No true bill in Tamir Rice case...

No Charges for Cleveland Officers in Shooting
December 28, 2015 - A grand jury on Monday decided not to file charges against two officers involved in fatal shooting of Tamir Rice last year.

A grand jury on Monday decided not to file charges against the two Cleveland police officers involved in the controversial fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice last year. Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty called the Nov. 24, 2014 shooting "a perfect storm of errors" while clearing Officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback during a press conference on Monday, according to . The decision comes more than 13 months after the shooting. Over the span of nearly three months, the grand jury heard conflicting reports written by five experts in police use of force, statements read by the officers and testimony from Rice's relatives.

The officers each wrote that they saw the boy pulling what they thought was a real gun out of his waistband before Loehmann shot him from close range. The officers shot the boy at the Cudell Recreation Center after responding to a report of a armed person who a caller said was scaring people. It was later revealed that the boy had been playing with a replica pellet gun with the orange safety tip removed and the caller had told the dispatcher that the gun was "probably fake" and that the suspect was "probably a juvenile." Those important details were not relayed to the officers.

The entire interaction was captured by a city-owned surveillance camera and lasted less than two seconds. The Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office released three reports from national experts in police use of force that each found that the shooting was reasonable because the officers did not know the boy's age or that the gun was fake.

No Charges for Cleveland Officers in Fatal Shooting | Officer.com

 

[Dogtanian]

I've watched the video a dozen times. The police car pulls up, the cop gets out and shoots the kid. No warning, just bam, dead.
Whether the 12 year-old boy pointed the imitation gun at passers-by and threatened then I don't know, but the situation called for a minimum of three squad cars plus one more to stop more civilians entering that area of the park. That did not happen, I think the way the cops handled it was more like a drive-by shooting.

Black people do commit more violent crime that white people (Asians also commit more violent crimes than whites) but in this specific case I don't see "errors", I see a cop out of control.

 

[come and take it23]

Was this one where he was pulling the bb gun on passers by in a park? Woulda shot him myself.

I understand your position and I am not necessarily opposed to it, but the ultimate concern is whether or not police should be more circumspect in the use of deadly force.

The video shows the police car pulling up close to Rice, one cop exits and almost immediately shoots Rice. Would you say that, under all the known circumstances, the shooting was avoidable?

Rice was sitting on the bench when the police car arrived. The driver could have parked more strategically and the cops could have exited, taken up a safe position behind the car and, with guns drawn and trained on Rice, ordered him to lie down -- which seems to be current standard police procedure.

So the bottom-line question is, regardless of your feelings in this specific example, do you think it's generally okay for police to behave so precipitously? Or do you feel they should have behaved more cautiously and attempted to better assess the situation?

Keep in mind the issue here is not your personal feelings toward Rice but whether the careless behavior of "cowboy cops" represents a danger to society in general.

No i don't think the shooting could have been avoided. And you're wrong he was not sitting down when the car pulled up. he got up when he saw the cop car,put his gun in the waistband and covered it with his shirt. started to walk away. but he then turned around and approached the car. he put his right hand on the gun and if you look at the shirt it will lift up from the gun being drawn. i don't care if you say he was showing the police it was a toy. they don't have audio to see if the officer spoke or not but i would say the the police officer told him to show his hands. also pellet guns can be lethal, i know that no one has mentioned that but they are. i have some myself and have seen the power they have. all im saying is that the world is pulling the race card, the child card and the toy card. here are some pics of a real 1911http://www.centerfiresystems.com/images/products/detail/RI1911TACABotLeftD.jpg vs. the bb 1911http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2132916!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/cleveland-police-shoot-boy.jpg he had. have a good life seeing everything how they aren't!!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What isn't justified is how so many on the right completely miss the point, attempting to contrive this tragic event into a partisan issue.

 

[MikeK]

No i don't think the shooting could have been avoided.

Why not?

Even if what you've said about Rice's movements is factual, if those cops had followed procedure there would have been no reason to shoot him.

The circumstances in this incident are not unique. I have seen news video, and it's likely you have too, of police confronting and eventually arresting armed subjects at a reasonably safe distance without needing to shoot them -- the difference being they followed procedure.

And that is my only complaint.

 

[TNHarley]

Justified.
The kid shouldn't have pointed the gun at them.
His parents should have tried raising their child.
You don't point guns at people.
And you don't let your kid rip off the part of the toy that distinguishes it as being a toy.
Cops have a right to life just as much as any other citizen. Their job is to protect the GENERAL welfare. People pointing guns at civilians is against the general welfare.

 

[anotherlife]

Slow news day?

 

[Dogtanian]

Justified.
The kid shouldn't have pointed the gun at them.
His parents should have tried raising their child.
You don't point guns at people.
And you don't let your kid rip off the part of the toy that distinguishes it as being a toy.
Cops have a right to life just as much as any other citizen. Their job is to protect the GENERAL welfare. People pointing guns at civilians is against the general welfare.

Children have no legal obligation to be smart, in fact it's rather expected that a 12 year-old will do dumb things. This particular 12 year old may have looked older than his age, but he still looked like a young teen, and there were no reports of gunshots fired. Cops get lots of reports every day of teenagers carrying guns that turn out to be BB guns, so it's not like there was a reasonable expectation of this being a real gun.

Even if it had been an adult with a real gun, the suspect should be given opportunity to lay down the weapon. You've seen how they do it in the movies; a cop with a rifle and another cop with a loudhailer. But if you watch the CCTV video, it's a case of blink and you missed it. I don't even see any real apprehension or fear from the police officers, they pull up right next to the kid, get out of the car and open fire. I'd say they were pumped-up on adrenalin and looking for trouble.

 

[TNHarley]

Justified.
The kid shouldn't have pointed the gun at them.
His parents should have tried raising their child.
You don't point guns at people.
And you don't let your kid rip off the part of the toy that distinguishes it as being a toy.
Cops have a right to life just as much as any other citizen. Their job is to protect the GENERAL welfare. People pointing guns at civilians is against the general welfare.

Children have no legal obligation to be smart, in fact it's rather expected that a 12 year-old will do dumb things. This particular 12 year old may have looked older than his age, but he still looked like a young teen, and there were no reports of gunshots fired. Cops get lots of reports every day of teenagers carrying guns that turn out to be BB guns, so it's not like there was a reasonable expectation of this being a real gun.

Even if it had been an adult with a real gun, the suspect should be given opportunity to lay down the weapon. You've seen how they do it in the movies; a cop with a rifle and another cop with a loudhailer. But if you watch the CCTV video, it's a case of blink and you missed it. I don't even see any real apprehension or fear from the police officers, they pull up right next to the kid, get out of the car and open fire. I'd say they were pumped-up on adrenalin and looking for trouble.

Screw that. If someone points a gun at a cop, they deserve what they get. A cop has no obligation to put his life on the line for a stupid person with a gun.

 

[Papageorgio]

What isn't justified is how so many on the right completely miss the point, attempting to contrive this tragic event into a partisan issue.

Like you have just done.

 

[mgh80]

A 12 year old kid can shoot and kill somebody with a gun. The fact that individuals cite his age as something police should take into consideration is ridiculous.

 

[MikeK]

A 12 year old kid can shoot and kill somebody with a gun. The fact that individuals cite his age as something police should take into consideration is ridiculous.

What Rice did or didn't do is not the issue. The issue is how the police responded to the situation. Because if they had followed procedure and approached Rice cautiously this costly and potentially destructive incident would not have happened.

No shots had been fired. Those cops had no concrete idea what was going on there. They had a vague idea that the subject of the gun report was an individual who was lying on a bench. So rather than driving right up to him and getting out of their car, risking being shot, themselves, they could have remained a relatively safe distance away, shielded by their car doors, and issued gunpoint commands for the suspect to disarm and lie face down -- which is the established procedure in such situations.

Instead, they rolled up like movie heroes and did what was completely avoidable, thereby creating a major incident which ultimately will cost millions of dollars and is reflecting badly on all cops, including those who would not have behaved so stupidly.