Student debt out of control???

[iamwhatiseem]

In 1975, when I started college, in-state tuition at a state university was much less in constant dollars than it is today, and the availability of non-loan financial aid was much greater. Also, the job market was much better (even though in the 1970s it was worse than it had been in the '60s, thanks to the oil problems) so that expectation of a good job awaiting a recent college graduate was more realistic.

These three things are the factors that have caused the problem with student loans today. Not the availability of student loans (without which many students simply couldn't attend school, period), not "the government getting involved" (without which we would have no state colleges or universities and everyone would have to pay private school tuition, which would make the problem even worse).

You can't possibly be this clueless.
Just as with the mortgage crises - the government is supplying loans and grants for a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE percentage of students - so what does this create? Artificial demand - and what does artificial demand create?.....ARTIFICIAL PRICES.
Tuition is sky high because of an enormous increase in students...and the enormous increase is not due to more college worthy kids - it is a direct result of government loans/grants paying for it REGARDLESS of the chances they have to actually graduate.

As well as college drop out rates are becoming pandemic. Good colleges are seeing as high as 40-50% drop out rates....many after 3-4 years of being there!!

 

[Si modo]

In 1975, when I started college, in-state tuition at a state university was much less in constant dollars than it is today, and the availability of non-loan financial aid was much greater. Also, the job market was much better (even though in the 1970s it was worse than it had been in the '60s, thanks to the oil problems) so that expectation of a good job awaiting a recent college graduate was more realistic.

These three things are the factors that have caused the problem with student loans today. Not the availability of student loans (without which many students simply couldn't attend school, period), not "the government getting involved" (without which we would have no state colleges or universities and everyone would have to pay private school tuition, which would make the problem even worse).

You can't possibly be this clueless.
Just as with the mortgage crises - the government is supplying loans and grants for a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE percentage of students - so what does this create? Artificial demand - and what does artificial demand create?.....ARTIFICIAL PRICES.
Tuition is sky high because of an enormous increase in students...and the enormous increase is not due to more college worthy kids - it is a direct result of government loans/grants paying for it REGARDLESS of the chances they have to actually graduate.

As well as college drop out rates are becoming pandemic. Good colleges are seeing as high as 40-50% drop out rates....many after 3-4 years of being there!!

Combine with that the grants the government dangled in front of C&Us to admit more students. Then, grants to government dangled in front of C&Us to retain those students after their first year.

So, to retain, the C&Us deflate grades.

Massive increase in capacities of C&Us from higher initial feeds AND higher retention times caused capital investments to handle capacity (an artificial capacity, at that), and someone has to pay for it.


The result? More money for lower quality.

Then the students drop out because they never should have been there in the first place, but for the government fucking up higher education with lame social engineering.

 

[Dragon]

It's a reality today that no one can achieve a good job without training beyond high school, and that our economy requires people with this advanced training. This has created an exploding market for college education. Either the government assists lower-income people to attend college, or college becomes exclusively a privilege of the children of the wealthy (and an occasional prodigy who is awarded a scholarship). In the latter case, we lack the trained personnel the economy needs and descend into being a third-world country.

Without government involvement in education, college tuition would be much, much higher, because there would be no such thing as a state school.

In a way, this discussion is not unlike the discussion about universal health care. Those on the right are speaking purely from theory, while those like myself can refer to actual other countries who do things differently than we do, and achieve better results. For example, in France, the tuition cost of a Licence Professionelle (equivalent to our bachelors degree) can be as low as €750 (a little over $1,000), and at a public school never more than €3,500 (around $4,800). Private school costs a lot more, of course. Education, like medical care, should be treated as a basic right.

 

[The Rabbi]

Average student debt is about $25,000, which is a new car note.

Mine is $70k

You must be smarter.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

It's a reality today that no one can achieve a good job without training beyond high school, and that our economy requires people with this advanced training. This has created an exploding market for college education. Either the government assists lower-income people to attend college, or college becomes exclusively a privilege of the children of the wealthy (and an occasional prodigy who is awarded a scholarship). In the latter case, we lack the trained personnel the economy needs and descend into being a third-world country.

Without government involvement in education, college tuition would be much, much higher, because there would be no such thing as a state school.

In a way, this discussion is not unlike the discussion about universal health care. Those on the right are speaking purely from theory, while those like myself can refer to actual other countries who do things differently than we do, and achieve better results. For example, in France, the tuition cost of a Licence Professionelle (equivalent to our bachelors degree) can be as low as €750 (a little over $1,000), and at a public school never more than €3,500 (around $4,800). Private school costs a lot more, of course. Education, like medical care, should be treated as a basic right.

You prefer cherry or grape?

 

[Listening]

In 1975, when I started college, in-state tuition at a state university was much less in constant dollars than it is today, and the availability of non-loan financial aid was much greater. Also, the job market was much better (even though in the 1970s it was worse than it had been in the '60s, thanks to the oil problems) so that expectation of a good job awaiting a recent college graduate was more realistic.

These three things are the factors that have caused the problem with student loans today. Not the availability of student loans (without which many students simply couldn't attend school, period), not "the government getting involved" (without which we would have no state colleges or universities and everyone would have to pay private school tuition, which would make the problem even worse).

Garbage.

If you want to attend school, you will attend school. You may be working part time while you do it...but you will attend school. If there were no college loans from the government, banks might (I said might) offer them. But you can bet your firstborn that they would put plenty of stipulations in place to make sure they get their money back.

Education is an investment, not an entitlement.

Government not getting involved in student loads does not mean state universities would not exist. But I would be real curios to see what our educational system looked like if it had to stand on it's own two feet. College would be a much more serious place.

 

[Listening]

Yeah like president Obama....magna cum laude from Harvard.

Agreed.

The name is way overstated and they also let subpar affirmative action types graduate.

 

[DiamondDave]

It's a reality today that no one can achieve a good job without training beyond high school, and that our economy requires people with this advanced training. This has created an exploding market for college education. Either the government assists lower-income people to attend college, or college becomes exclusively a privilege of the children of the wealthy (and an occasional prodigy who is awarded a scholarship). In the latter case, we lack the trained personnel the economy needs and descend into being a third-world country.

Without government involvement in education, college tuition would be much, much higher, because there would be no such thing as a state school.

In a way, this discussion is not unlike the discussion about universal health care. Those on the right are speaking purely from theory, while those like myself can refer to actual other countries who do things differently than we do, and achieve better results. For example, in France, the tuition cost of a Licence Professionelle (equivalent to our bachelors degree) can be as low as €750 (a little over $1,000), and at a public school never more than €3,500 (around $4,800). Private school costs a lot more, of course. Education, like medical care, should be treated as a basic right.

Are you not an adult? ?Are college students (for the most part) legally adults?? What makes it the responsibility of society or our government to provide your training or education as an adult??

Can you not assume the risk of whatever loan if YOU FEEL IT IS WORTH IT?? Can you not save and go to school later?? Can you not OJT or choose a company with tuition benefits?? Can you not join the military for training?? Can you not advance in another job path and change careers when you are more settled??

Again.. why the fuck do you think, or should anyone else thing, this if fucking OWED to you??

 

[idb]

I remember seeing a quarter-page ad in a national paper here a few years ago advertising a course at a college.
It emphasised that the course was eleigible for student loans.
It was a year-long course and it was for....Circus Performing!!!

FFS!!!

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In 1975, when I started college, in-state tuition at a state university was much less in constant dollars than it is today, and the availability of non-loan financial aid was much greater. Also, the job market was much better (even though in the 1970s it was worse than it had been in the '60s, thanks to the oil problems) so that expectation of a good job awaiting a recent college graduate was more realistic.

These three things are the factors that have caused the problem with student loans today. Not the availability of student loans (without which many students simply couldn't attend school, period), not "the government getting involved" (without which we would have no state colleges or universities and everyone would have to pay private school tuition, which would make the problem even worse).

Garbage.

If you want to attend school, you will attend school. You may be working part time while you do it...but you will attend school. If there were no college loans from the government, banks might (I said might) offer them. But you can bet your firstborn that they would put plenty of stipulations in place to make sure they get their money back.

Education is an investment, not an entitlement.

Government not getting involved in student loads does not mean state universities would not exist. But I would be real curios to see what our educational system looked like if it had to stand on it's own two feet. College would be a much more serious place.

Agreed...there probably wouldn't be classes such as "oragami"...I couldn't believe some of the stupid classes that kids can take...it's not the girl or boy scouts for Pete's sake.

 

[DiamondDave]

Nothing like majoring in a 3000 year old dead language... taxpayer subsidized

 

[The Rabbi]

Nothing like majoring in a 3000 year old dead language... taxpayer subsidized

Hey I resemble that remark!

 

[syrenn]

Agreed...there probably wouldn't be classes such as "oragami"...I couldn't believe some of the stupid classes that kids can take...it's not the girl or boy scouts for Pete's sake.

Are you sure? I could be classed as asian art or asian folk art.

 

[Cammmpbell]

The entire problem, as several of us obviously agree, is the government getting involved.
When parents and the child themselves are footing the bill - there wouldn't be any of these career students meandering between one class to another.
Hell no.
When my daughter finished her pre-reqs and began her major we had her sit out for a semester, one was to work as many hours as she could get to build up her savings - but more importantly to giver her 6 months to be sure this is what she wants. I have told her numerous times that this is it...no changing her mind now. This is a ton of money we are investing and we cannot spend $17,000 this year and she decides it isn't that fun.
But with the government (as in taxpayers) paying for it - who gives a rats ass right? Hell...who cares if they even graduate?

Yeah and that's what makes this country a lot different than it used to be. People in the old days were nearly all poor or of modest means. They all cared for and helped one another. Now those who are better off look down on those who are poor and less fortunate. I wish all of them(the ones who look down on others) a good, sound case of stomach cancer though I hope their pain isn't totally unbearable.

 

[DiamondDave]

The entire problem, as several of us obviously agree, is the government getting involved.
When parents and the child themselves are footing the bill - there wouldn't be any of these career students meandering between one class to another.
Hell no.
When my daughter finished her pre-reqs and began her major we had her sit out for a semester, one was to work as many hours as she could get to build up her savings - but more importantly to giver her 6 months to be sure this is what she wants. I have told her numerous times that this is it...no changing her mind now. This is a ton of money we are investing and we cannot spend $17,000 this year and she decides it isn't that fun.
But with the government (as in taxpayers) paying for it - who gives a rats ass right? Hell...who cares if they even graduate?

Yeah and that's what makes this country a lot different than it used to be. People in the old days were nearly all poor or of modest means. They all cared for and helped one another. Now those who are better off look down on those who are poor and less fortunate. I wish all of them(the ones who look down on others) a good, sound case of stomach cancer though I hope their pain isn't totally unbearable.

Yeah.. those evil rich never give to charities or research... ...

Y'know... as I state constantly to the other wingers... where are you owed a goddamn thing as an adult anyway??

I personally don't look down on the poor... I worked my way up from it.... I look down on "gimme gimme gimme" entitlement junkies and socialist principle supporters such as yourself

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Out of control? No, people are out of control... Hey, wanna go to college? Fine. Wanna borrow $100,000 to gt a "Latin Studies" degree? Fine. So, you can't find a job that requires a "Latin Studies" degree? Too bad. Pay the money back.

 

[Defiant1]

According to the link below, American students in debt to educational loans has reached a trillion dollars...

Paul would ax five agencies, hits focus on Romney's lawn - Washington Times

Worse, they can't get jobs due to the miserable state of the American economy. The interest alone on these educational debts must be substantial. Is it time to bring back the smokestack industry of manufacturing to get real jobs back in country instead of tax funded government pencil pushing jobs???

The graduates don't owe debts to public schools. Universities have become corporations. Students pay for salaries, maintenance, research, bonuses, pensions etc. It's the same damn thing that wrong from one end of this country to the other. GREED. We're slowly dividing into a society made up of the haves and the have nots.

Works for me as long as the have nots can't lay claim to what I have.

 

[Katzndogz]

In 1975, when I started college, in-state tuition at a state university was much less in constant dollars than it is today, and the availability of non-loan financial aid was much greater. Also, the job market was much better (even though in the 1970s it was worse than it had been in the '60s, thanks to the oil problems) so that expectation of a good job awaiting a recent college graduate was more realistic.

These three things are the factors that have caused the problem with student loans today. Not the availability of student loans (without which many students simply couldn't attend school, period), not "the government getting involved" (without which we would have no state colleges or universities and everyone would have to pay private school tuition, which would make the problem even worse).

Garbage.

If you want to attend school, you will attend school. You may be working part time while you do it...but you will attend school. If there were no college loans from the government, banks might (I said might) offer them. But you can bet your firstborn that they would put plenty of stipulations in place to make sure they get their money back.

Education is an investment, not an entitlement.

Government not getting involved in student loads does not mean state universities would not exist. But I would be real curios to see what our educational system looked like if it had to stand on it's own two feet. College would be a much more serious place.

Agreed...there probably wouldn't be classes such as "oragami"...I couldn't believe some of the stupid classes that kids can take...it's not the girl or boy scouts for Pete's sake.

I knew a woman who graduated college yet could not find a job doing anything. She couldn't even get a job as a hotel maid. She had been married, as a term in her settlement her husband would pay completely for a college education that would make her employable. The decision on what to take was hers. She chose "Basketweaving and Pottery Among Indigenous Peoples" as her major for an Art and Design degree.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Garbage.

If you want to attend school, you will attend school. You may be working part time while you do it...but you will attend school. If there were no college loans from the government, banks might (I said might) offer them. But you can bet your firstborn that they would put plenty of stipulations in place to make sure they get their money back.

Education is an investment, not an entitlement.

Government not getting involved in student loads does not mean state universities would not exist. But I would be real curios to see what our educational system looked like if it had to stand on it's own two feet. College would be a much more serious place.

Agreed...there probably wouldn't be classes such as "oragami"...I couldn't believe some of the stupid classes that kids can take...it's not the girl or boy scouts for Pete's sake.

I knew a woman who graduated college yet could not find a job doing anything. She couldn't even get a job as a hotel maid. She had been married, as a term in her settlement her husband would pay completely for a college education that would make her employable. The decision on what to take was hers. She chose "Basketweaving and Pottery Among Indigenous Peoples" as her major for an Art and Design degree.

She sounds like a genius.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Garbage.

If you want to attend school, you will attend school. You may be working part time while you do it...but you will attend school. If there were no college loans from the government, banks might (I said might) offer them. But you can bet your firstborn that they would put plenty of stipulations in place to make sure they get their money back.

Education is an investment, not an entitlement.

Government not getting involved in student loads does not mean state universities would not exist. But I would be real curios to see what our educational system looked like if it had to stand on it's own two feet. College would be a much more serious place.

Agreed...there probably wouldn't be classes such as "oragami"...I couldn't believe some of the stupid classes that kids can take...it's not the girl or boy scouts for Pete's sake.

I knew a woman who graduated college yet could not find a job doing anything. She couldn't even get a job as a hotel maid. She had been married, as a term in her settlement her husband would pay completely for a college education that would make her employable. The decision on what to take was hers. She chose "Basketweaving and Pottery Among Indigenous Peoples" as her major for an Art and Design degree.

As the husband I would have tried to stay on good terms with her during school, attended graduation and then offered her a ride. Then drive to the nearest unemployment office and tell her "have fun, the gravy train is over."


With two kids in college Mom & I laid down the law. Degree choice is yours, you can get any degree you want. On the other hand if I don't think it's employable I don't have to pay for it and you are on your own. You want a degree in "Obscure Middle Ages Literature" go for it, on your own dime. Both decided to pursue technical degrees with a high degree of employability - go figure.



>>>>>