CDZ Socialized care melt down. NHS in crisis.

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Andylusion, May 12, 2017.

  1. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    You approach this from an ideological stance that blinds you to the truth.
    This little pic explains the way that the Tories have squeezed the NHS.

    [​IMG]

    When you also factor in that almost all the cabinet have interests in private health providers it is clear to see why things have collapsed under the tories.
    Its great to live in a country where medical treatment doesnt cause you to lose your house. A year ago I broke my ankle. I was off work for 6 months and I estimate that I got $55k of treatment had I been charged under the American system.

    I didnt receive a bill for any of it.

    But heres the thing. It wasnt free. I have been paying a small amount of tax every year since I started work. Everybody does.

    And for that I get peace of mind. Whatever happens I know that my family is covered. Even better, my neighbour and his family is covered.

    Rich or poor we all get a great service.

    No insurance companies making huge profits. No private hospitals giving us drugs we dont need.Oh, and no pharma companies screwing us. Our medication costs a fraction of the cost in the US where your systems are bizarre to say the least.

    You point to Venezuela as an example of a failed system. I could point to the NHS or Sweden or Norway as examples of how it works.

    I could also point to the US as an example of a health service that does not meet the needs of its society and is going to get worse.

    It is a moral and ethical issue.We all pay in and we all benefit. It binds us together as a society. It is light years ahead of your beggar my neighbour philosophy.
     
  2. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    How much was your average wage over the last 10 working years?
     
  3. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    Funny that you claim it is difficult dealing with an ideological standpoint right before launching into an ideological standpoint...
     
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  4. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    Its not ideological. Its an accurate summary of the problems facing our right to healthcare.
     
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  5. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    Yeah, everyone says that. Everything you claimed I have seen and read, and heard the endless problems that counter it.

    I have already posted some on this thread, and dozens more throughout this forum.

    The only thing I can't counter is that your system is cheaper. Of course you get worse care. So I would expect crappy care to be cheaper.

    But I'm even wondering how true that is.

    I want answer to my prior question. I want to know just how much money you make, to give me an estimate on how much in taxes you pay.

    My bet is that you paid far more in taxes, than I have ever paid in insurance premiums.

    Even then, your taxes are not all the taxes you pay. Wages in the UK are lower than in the US. People who immigrate to the US from the UK, routinely say they get a pay-hike coming here.

    The primary reason for that, is the higher taxes you levy against employers, results in them paying employees less.

    So you are in effect paying taxes that you never actually see on your pay stub. My bet is that UK citizens pay a ton more than most Americans for your lesser quality care. And I am almost 100% certain that YOU as individual have paid tons more than I have for care.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  6. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    A lot of guessing going on here Andy. US healthcare is more expensive because it is s complicated and there are so many people who need to make a profit out of your illness.
    Thats why the cost of medication in the US dwarfs the cost of those countries with sensible health policies. Just google it.
     
  7. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    All you have to do is look at the VA that our gov't runs to provide HC to our Vets. It's disgraceful and how anyone can think a national version of gov't run HC would be any different is beyond me. And then there's this, every country that has sociaIized medicine has to pay through the nose for it, and not just the rich guys either. It's EVERYBODY that pays, via higher income taxes or a VAT to the tune 20-25%. Or both. All I ask is, be straight with the American people about what it's going to cost them when you tell them what a great deal a single payer system is.
     
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  8. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    First you haven't actually proven the claim.

    How much were your last 10 years of wages on average?

    I want to see how much you have spent in taxes, paying for the NHS, and compare that to how much I have paid for private health insurance.

    I'll give you a hint. My private insurance is $80 a month. How much are your taxes?

    Every time I compare the numbers, I'm not seeing that your system is all that much cheaper.

    The average wage in the UK is just £27,600. That's only $35,800 a year. The average here in $50,000.

    And most of that can be traced to taxes on business, the largest of which goes to NHS.

    Additionally out of your income, you'll pay £3,000 in income taxes, and an additional £2200 in national insurance "contributions"... The irony is that your "contributions" do not pay for the majority of NHS care. Your income taxes do. So most of that money is all for health care.

    That doesn't include services and fees on patients at the time they get health care.

    Nor does it include people who pay money to get expedited services. Thousands of UK citizens pay the fees, to get their surgeries and needs, pushed to the front of line.

    Nor does it include the hundreds of thousands of UK citizens that travel outside the UK for health care.
    prices.jpeg

    Treatment costs in the UK, are vastly more expensive than elsewhere in Europe. Is it because of all the profiteering that is happening in the NHS?

    Even better, most of the hospitals these patients are going to, are private explicitly for-profit hospitals. Interesting that you claim it's the for profit motive that is driving up prices, when in reality, it's the for-profit hospitals that people in YOUR country are going to.

    I have already given a detailed answer on why US care is more expensive. And the biggest reason is government programs. Medicare and Medicaid do not pay enough money to cover the cost of treatment. This is by design. In order for hospitals to stay open, they must charge private patients a higher price.

    Every time you see a quoted price from an American hospital, that's the price of care, plus covering the cost of all the hospitals government patients.

    Regardless, my point still remains. You are paying far more in taxes, than I ever have for health insurance. By a massive margin I wager.
     
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  9. westwall
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    westwall USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    If single payer were so great why would Canadian politicians come to the USA for their lifesaving operations? On two seperate occasions that is what they have done rather than use their "free" healthcare. So... Tell us why they would come to the USA and pay out of their own pocket instead of using their "free" oh so great healthcare system.
     
  10. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    Andy you make a lot of assumptions. Back them up with links.
     

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