CDZ Socialized care melt down. NHS in crisis.

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Andylusion, May 12, 2017.

  1. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    I think we've seen enough posts about how the NHS was already in dire trouble simply from the failure of socialism to magically provide the unlimited funds they need.

    But now things are much worse....

    NHS held to ransom: Hospitals in IT meltdown

    NHS cyberattack: Is your hospital affected?

    BBB4d1a.jpeg

    Operations being canceled. Delays at all levels of health care. People being turned away for treatment.

    Now of course, have us hospitals ever been hit by a cyber attack? Sure. But unlike the union-government-employees that run cyber-security at government run hospitals, our capitalist based profit-motivated hospitals seem to have a better time dealing with it.

    Of course that costs money. Thankfully the NHS is far cheaper. And we can see the results of that.

    But what makes this particularly humorous to me, is that this is one of the areas where the left-wing claims our system sucks.

    I have pointed out many times that various rankings used around the world to claim the US healthcare is terrible and everyone else has a better system, none of them actually look specifically at the quality of care.

    They look at nearly everything except quality of care. As if the quality and results of care is a static thing, and all that matters is cost and amenities, as if we can cut costs in half and the quality will remain the same.

    But related to this specific event, some rankings specifically look at how computerized the health care system is.

    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...rt/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf

    On page 22 of the Common wealth fund ranking they say:

    "Efficiency indicators from the 2012 survey include whether or not primary care practices have “multifunctional clinical information technology.” To be defined as a primary care practice with multifunctional IT functionality, the practice must have an electronic medical record (EMR) system with two or more functions for ordering, patient information, panel information, and decision support."

    In other words, if only we had computerized electronic medical record system, we could be as efficient as the NHS is now.

    Granted that has nothing to do with the quality of care... I'll take a high quality doctor writing notes on paper, who can see me in a week instead of year, over anything the NHS has. But that's a negative in their comparison, and so our health care sucks.

    If only we could be as computerized as the NHS.

    it-nhs-hack.jpeg

    By the way, doesn't this sound familiar? Like healthcare.gov?

    Funny how we keep getting the same results with government intervention, but then everyone is constantly surprised by problems.
     
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  2. Ringel05
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    Ringel05 Diamond Member

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    I can see why you put this in the CDZ............ :eusa_whistle:
     
  3. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    The OP is not framed in any way that encourages debate.
     
  4. miketx
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    miketx Gold Member

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    Not in the least of all when he proves you are all in denial, and told you so, right?
     
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  5. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    Where does it say that ? He has a lack of understanding of how our healthcare system works and attributes the problems to "socialism".
    Its as far off base as it could be.
     
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  6. miketx
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    miketx Gold Member

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    You know where it says it.
     
  7. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    First, my main point was that many of these ridiculous ranking systems, that all say US health care sucks, use how "computerized" the system is. Now that the very thing that these left-wing idiotic rankings point to (instead of quality of care), is the very thing that has crippled half the health care system in the UK.

    But ok Tommy. Here's your chance. Go ahead and provide your explanation of how it works.

    In a Capitalist system, we have the benefits of competition.

    Now what this means in practical terms, is that each hospital has a profit-motivated incentive to make sure their system, computerized or not, has enough redundancy and fail-safes, to ensure proper operation during any kind of problem.

    In this particular case, it means that each hospital has back-up servers, and some of the highest quality cyber-security on the market. That various systems are somewhat isolated from the rest of the system to reduce infection and hacking.

    Of course that costs money. But that's why you don't see US hospitals shutting down, or diverting patients.

    Now why is this worth it to hospitals?

    It's real simple. In America..... you are the customer. See, if the hospital has some castrophic event, that makes them unable to help their customers... the customers (you) will leave. If the customers leaves.... they don't get paid.

    If they don't get paid.... the hospital closes, and everyone is out of a job.

    That's competition. It forces hospitals and CEOs and employees, to provide the best stable service they can, or they don't get paid.

    Now think about that motivation at the NHS hospital. If you are sent away, do they lose money? No. If you are unhappy and leave, do they lose their job? No. If dozens of people die, and there is a massive tragedy, does anyone go out of business? No.

    You say that would never happen? In 2003 a heat wave hit Europe. In France thousands of people died. Now, that alone isn't surprising. What is absolutely insane to an American, is that hundreds on hundreds of these deaths were INSIDE..... French hospitals.

    If any hospital in the US had that happen, they would go out of business. No one would go to such a hospital. The people would be unemployed. The company would fold. Everyone would go to a different.... better hospital.

    Tell me... how many doctors and nurses at these government run hospitals are unemployed for letting hundreds on hundreds of people die INSIDE the hospital under their care? None. How many hospitals that let these people die, are closed? None.

    That's how that works. No competition. No threat of monetary loss. No reason to worry when patients die.

    See under capitalism you are valued customer. Under socialism.... well you are just a problem. If the problem goes away because you died... that just.... solves the problem.
     
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  8. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    I find it difficult dealing with ideological standpoints like this.

    The problems with the NHS stem from systematic underfunding by the current tory regime. By and large they hate the NHS. They opposed it when it was introduced and back an american "XXXX the poor" system of health care.

    So you see the problems in the NHS are directly attributable to right wing capitalists and it will be saved when decent socialists regain control.

    Apart from a few millionaires nobody wants an American type system. Its inhumane,expensive and lacks a spiritual grounding.
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2017
  9. Andylusion
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    Andylusion Gold Member

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    Several years back the UK government put up a bond sale, and the sale failed. People didn't buy the bonds.

    This shocked your government into the realization of what everyone else on the face of the Earth knew. You can't borrow endlessly.

    Of course your NHS would work better if you just had endless amounts of money to make it work. Obviously.

    The problem with all left-wing ideology is that you don't have endless amounts of money. And when you are faced with this universal problem of all left-wing ideology, you default to "it's so-and-so's fault".

    This is why every left-wing ideology ends with tyranny and oppression.

    The logical conclusion of your left-wing beliefs, is Venezuela. Instead of saying "price controls are not working" you send military troops to guard stores. Send police to confiscate farm land. Send investigators to track down black market food. There is always someone to blame.

    North Korea blames South Korea. Cube blames the US Embargo. Iran blames Israel.

    Socialism always runs out of other people's money to spend, but never accepts that it's flawed system, they simply turn into 2-year-olds pointing fingers and screaming that it's someone else's fault.

    So in the UK, it's not because the NHS is facing the same problems that every other socialized care system is facing.

    No no... that can't be it. It's not possible that the system itself is bad... nope... it's gotta be that the evil Tories (who are attempting to avert a possible UK sovereign default), they just hate the NHS, and they are trying to destroy the country.

    If only the Tories were not there, then magically all the money in the world would be able to pay for everything you want.

    They tried that once. Over in a European country. What was that name again? Oh, right right.... Greece. How did that work for them?
     
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  10. Dragonlady
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    The US system is rated so very low because it costs twice as much as everyone else is paying, and doesn't have quantifiable better results. In fact, prior to the ACA, 45,000 Americans per year died due to lack of access to quality health care. This doesn't happen in any other first world country because the rest of us have socialized medicine and universal coverage.

    The US and Canada have similar survival rates and outcomes for cancer, heart attack, and other illnesses, but we spend a little more than 50% per capita to the US.

    You have insurance companies dictating what tests and treatments you will receive, and even with good health insurance coverage, co-pays and lifetime caps will result in you going bankrupt if anyone in your family suffers a catastrophic illness or accident.

    Sucks to be you, if you get old and develop a ore-existing condition.

    Me, I have a knee replacement coming up, and a hip replacement. Not looking forward to either. Out of pocket hospital, doctors and rehab costs to me? $0.00. I have a $2.00 copayment on prescriptions.

    Paperwork and pre-approvals: None. I just have to turn up at my appointments and make arrangements for home care when I get out of hospital. In my case, that means staying with my daughter after I get out of hospital.

    All I have to worry about is following doctors orders, not pushing my luck, and doing my exercises.
     
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    Last edited: May 14, 2017

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