"So What If We're Terrorists? You Mishandled the Koran"

[IControlThePast]

My friend who was in the Army said that Basic was a piece of cake and he has a harder time mountain biking than he ever did in Basic. Just a bunch of mind games he said, but maybe it's just because he's been through some pretty extreme stuff outside of the Army, like having to give CPR to someone for 45 minutes without assistance until EMS arrived.

I don't understand why people insist on using a bastardization of the Golden Rule for their moral starting point on these Gitmo tortures. It's not "do unto others as they have done unto you." Also you can't claim someone is a Terrorist until they've been convicted of being one or confessed. Feeding the prisoners kosher meals but then performing immoral actions against them doesn't count as moral. Now I'm not raging against the mistreatment of ink and paper, but what I'm hearing here is a pretty poor defense for our actions.

 

[archangel]

Since i never served in the military im not fully aware of what occured in Basic. But according to many military friends and people that have been on these talk shows and TV, Basic training is far more grueling then ANYTHING these prisoners are going through.

In Basic, soldiers are expected to stand in 110 degree heat for 5+ hours at full attention with 110lb pack of equipment, perfectly ordered on their backs without flinching. Any flinching cause their drill sergeant to get about a mm from their face screaming at the top of their lungs. Spit flying from their mouths into the soldiers face of which you can not wipe away. Then you must do 20, 30, 50 perfect pushups with the pack on and the sergeants boot heel in your back. In other branches, you must endore hours of freezing cold ocean, running in and out of the water and subzero temps. You must show no signs of fatigue or you must do it all again.

Your food consists of a fine gruel or gruel like substance. If youve never eaten gruel, then you havent truely felt pain. Once you grow hungry enough though, according to my friends, it tastes like filet mijon. Thats of course after the first few days of puking it up because of its repulsiveness to your body.

You then sleep in a room with 20 to 30 other men, in bunks the size of a childrens bed. You wake up at 5am and do it all again. You must have your bed made to perfection or you drop and give 50 perfect pushups. Your uniform has to be in perfect order or you drop and give 50 perfect pushups.

Sounds to me like these prisoners have it pretty fucking easy compared to basic training.

Damn you dredged up fond memories.............

 

[insein]

My friend who was in the Army said that Basic was a piece of cake and he has a harder time mountain biking than he ever did in Basic. Just a bunch of mind games he said, but maybe it's just because he's been through some pretty extreme stuff outside of the Army, like having to give CPR to someone for 45 minutes without assistance until EMS arrived.

I don't understand why people insist on using a bastardization of the Golden Rule for their moral starting point on these Gitmo tortures. It's not "do unto others as they have done unto you." Also you can't claim someone is a Terrorist until they've been convicted of being one or confessed. Feeding the prisoners kosher meals but then performing immoral actions against them doesn't count as moral. Now I'm not raging against the mistreatment of ink and paper, but what I'm hearing here is a pretty poor defense for our actions.

What immoral acts have been done to them? If anything they are treating them too well. Because they are going to complain anyway knowing full well the Liberal Media will show every word of every complaint to the public to try and create dissent for them. So IMO we should be torturing them because the media will treat it the same either way.

 

[Said1]

My friend who was in the Army said that Basic was a piece of cake and he has a harder time mountain biking than he ever did in Basic. Just a bunch of mind games he said, but maybe it's just because he's been through some pretty extreme stuff outside of the Army, like having to give CPR to someone for 45 minutes without assistance until EMS arrived.

I don't understand why people insist on using a bastardization of the Golden Rule for their moral starting point on these Gitmo tortures. It's not "do unto others as they have done unto you." Also you can't claim someone is a Terrorist until they've been convicted of being one or confessed. Feeding the prisoners kosher meals but then performing immoral actions against them doesn't count as moral. Now I'm not raging against the mistreatment of ink and paper, but what I'm hearing here is a pretty poor defense for our actions.

I don't think all of them are "suspected" terrorists, some are actual POWs.

 

[Annie]

Paul Simon was one of the good guys, on most things. He was what I always thought of as a good Democrat, even when I didn't agree with him.

The summer of 2002, I was granted a master's course at Southern Illinois University on "Teaching In a Post 9/11 World". Senator Simon was one of the lecturers for two days. He was adament that terrorism had to be addressed and that Bush, at the time anyways, was doing the right thing. He was already appalled at how some were playing politics with the public's safety.

I'm sorry he's gone, for his was a voice of reason.

http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/us_prisonersingitmo12002.html

The prisoners in Gitmo


Paul Simon is angered by complaints about the conditions in which prisoners are being held in Gitmo and he accuses journalists of spreading them. "I couldn't help but noticing that the US is allowing a permanent International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) office at Gitmo to watch the treatment the prisoners get. I could hardly imagine any other nation taking such an extraordinary step! I hope the ICRC members brought their Gortex Parkas for those "quite cold" Cuban nights. I also noticed that at the height of the "Brutal Afghan Winter" today that neither the British commander in Kabul nor his BBC interlocutor needed gloves, headgear, or a fastened jacket. Back in September and October, the media were taking delight in reporting that the "brutal Afghan winter" was just weeks away. Climatic and meteorological data are on the internet for one and all to access in just seconds. Given this, I'm just agog at journalists too torpid or biased to check such elementary facts before going off into alarmist reportage".

I agree, but the aim is to get the public to believe that the correspondents are working under intolerable conditions. They are required to stand in the snow or rain rather than report from under cover. Another question is military versus civilian courts for the prisoners. Miles Seeley says: "I never did see the point in military tribunals, since I doubt any highly classified information would be compromised by a civilian trial. Congressional committees leak a lot more than a closed civilian courtroom. Prisoners and trials are one thing- and it is debatable whether these are POWs or whatever- but action in the field is something else. Be too punctilious with these types, and you're dead, since they have no scruples at all". Can Hank Greely tell us if a judge can simply close a court to the public? How does the Freedom of Information Act affect this? I'm sure Paul's beloved newsmen would howl. Would you?

Ronald Hilton - 1/20/02

 

[IControlThePast]

What immoral acts have been done to them? If anything they are treating them too well. Because they are going to complain anyway knowing full well the Liberal Media will show every word of every complaint to the public to try and create dissent for them. So IMO we should be torturing them because the media will treat it the same either way.

I'm not saying that any immoral acts have been done against them, but that all I'm seeing is poor rationalizations. When faced with torture allegations, people, including members of Congress, have said "but we give them five square meals a day." Well that doesn't really matter if you beat them at night or if whatever allegations brought are true. I'm saying why not deal with the allegations on their merits and demerits instead of saying "We feed the prisoners well" or "Imagine what Terrorists are doing to our prisoners." If we don't beat them at night say we don't beat them at night, don't trot out plate of what they ate in front of the rest of Congress.

 

[pegwinn]

The boot camp stories are killing me!!!

File a suit that you are being abused............ continued exposure could be harmful

 

[insein]

I'm not saying that any immoral acts have been done against them, but that all I'm seeing is poor rationalizations. When faced with torture allegations, people, including members of Congress, have said "but we give them five square meals a day." Well that doesn't really matter if you beat them at night or if whatever allegations brought are true. I'm saying why not deal with the allegations on their merits and demerits instead of saying "We feed the prisoners well" or "Imagine what Terrorists are doing to our prisoners." If we don't beat them at night say we don't beat them at night, don't trot out plate of what they ate in front of the rest of Congress.

I see what your saying but there arent any allegations of "physical" torture. The only allegations that have been made by these terrorists have eben that the Koran was mishandled or that their rooms are too hot or too cold. Thats the only official allegations made by them. Anything is speculation on anyones part.

Trying to justify ones actions by saying, "Well they do it" isnt the way to go. But these cases of torture which havent even been proven to be totally true, are a far cry from torture or immoral.

 

[Annie]

I see what your saying but there arent any allegations of "physical" torture. The only allegations that have been made by these terrorists have eben that the Koran was mishandled or that their rooms are too hot or too cold. Thats the only official allegations made by them. Anything is speculation on anyones part.

Trying to justify ones actions by saying, "Well they do it" isnt the way to go. But these cases of torture which havent even been proven to be totally true, are a far cry from torture or immoral.

Most of the allegations have been proven to be false. Where there seemed to be questions or 'patterns' those involved were removed from their positions:


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/26/p...&en=2f61966d17b9c9ab&ei=5094&partner=homepage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/25/AR2005052501838.html

 

[xandy123]

Not so funny if they win.

Their not going to win, none of those men will go to trial as long as a Republican president is in office. It would be a massive black eye for any republican administration allow a suspected or know terrorist to be vindicated by our legal system which frequently allows people to go scott free even if they have committed gruesome crimes. Some of the prisoners at GITMO might even go free on technicalities should the be processed in the U.S. Some democrats argue that we should charge these people with crimes. The potential for information (which is crucial to eliminating terrorism) however is the primary reason that people are bieng detained at GITMO. GITMO prisoners are mostly armed combatants. People who were taking popshots at U.S troops in Afghanistan with ten year old AK-47's. These people are not even your average terrorist their the worst of the worst and they attack the people who are caring for them. My former lacross coach would proably consider standing for a long time a way to build stamina. These prisoners are recieveing better health care and treatment simplely because they are terrorist. (Is their anything more Ironic) The worlds eye is on them and thus the military cannot abuse them. What is most unnerving is that some people in the united states think that Non citizen combatants who are not U.S citizens and are bieng held at GITMO because they are or have ties to terrorist should be treated like martha and allowed to enjoy the perks of a legal system ment to discourage anarchy like all legal systems, the very thing these terrorist hate and militate against.