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I was waiting for some fool to bring up elections
So don't even begin to pretend you're all about free elections. If you were you would be criticizing the US which has done this numerous times.
You do know the definition of hypocrite, don't you?
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
you hope, you mean. You don't know squat, just some knee jerk poster. Apparently you did some Google Scholaring and found out you made an idiot out of yourself. lol
What would have happened if we just allowed Vietnam to fight its Civil War without outside involvement?
Vietnam would have had a million fewer deaths
The U.S. Would have 60,000 deaths
The North would have won and the country would be as well off or better than it is today
I'll bite:
So, how would you have gotten Mao and his hundreds of thousands of troops out and realized this notion of 'no outside interference'. That would have meant no Ho Chi Min as well.
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
you hope, you mean. You don't know squat, just some knee jerk poster. Apparently you did some Google Scholaring and found out you made an idiot out of yourself. lol
Tell us about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops in Vietnam
They were " secret" troops disguised as NVA
U.S. can't tell the difference anyway......they all look alike
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
you hope, you mean. You don't know squat, just some knee jerk poster. Apparently you did some Google Scholaring and found out you made an idiot out of yourself. lol
Tell us about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops in Vietnam
They were " secret" troops disguised as NVA
U.S. can't tell the difference anyway......they all look alike
Already posted on it. Go refute it if you don't think the Chinese never sent troops into North Viet Nam or helped Ho. Should be easy, right?
I questioned some of our war policies back then, but I still believed in the domino theory. The free world vs communism. Now a much worse domino situation. Islam vs the free world. Looks like Islam might win out on this one, considering the amount of babies their women have, and how much the obamas and clintons want to flood our country with this enemy. And if course in Europe too, with the clinton retreads like merkle in charge.
I know the answerDodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
you hope, you mean. You don't know squat, just some knee jerk poster. Apparently you did some Google Scholaring and found out you made an idiot out of yourself. lol
Tell us about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops in Vietnam
They were " secret" troops disguised as NVA
U.S. can't tell the difference anyway......they all look alike
Already posted on it. Go refute it if you don't think the Chinese never sent troops into North Viet Nam or helped Ho. Should be easy, right?
Chinese troops in Vietnam. For sure. Russian migs too. Free world vs. communist world.
I know the answerYou are making wild claims
If you can back them up, we can discuss them
Start with the hundreds of thousand of Chinese troops in Vietnam
Dodge duly noted. You know the answer already, and hope to bury your embarrassment with a couple of pages of spam posts, demanding replies from others while not answering any yourself, as usual. Thanks for playing.
You are a conspiracy whack job who cannot back up your claims
you hope, you mean. You don't know squat, just some knee jerk poster. Apparently you did some Google Scholaring and found out you made an idiot out of yourself. lol
Tell us about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops in Vietnam
They were " secret" troops disguised as NVA
U.S. can't tell the difference anyway......they all look alike
Again, please challenge me on anything I posted you feel is not accurate. You yourself have been challenged on 2 of your baseless assertions and have not shown any evidence it happened. Which "fact" did you post that anyone is avoiding addressing. Still waiting for that assertion that "Mao ordered Ho to attack at Dein Ben Phu, and had ordered him to go on from there and attack Vientiane and then Cambodia"I was waiting for some fool to bring up elections
lol .. so you forgot that fool was yourself. typical.
So don't even begin to pretend you're all about free elections. If you were you would be criticizing the US which has done this numerous times.
You do know the definition of hypocrite, don't you?
Another nonsensical response, avoiding addressing the facts, again typical; just shift the topic elsewhere and avoiding addressing the facts, just keep 'playing "I Touched You Last!!!" until everybody gets bored and goes away. lol pathetic.
Again, please challenge me on anything I posted you feel is not accurate. You yourself have been challenged on 2 of your baseless assertions and have not shown any evidence it happened. Which "fact" did you post that anyone is avoiding adressing. Still waitnf for that assertion that MaoI was waiting for some fool to bring up elections
lol .. so you forgot that fool was yourself. typical.
So don't even begin to pretend you're all about free elections. If you were you would be criticizing the US which has done this numerous times.
You do know the definition of hypocrite, don't you?
Another nonsensical response, avoiding addressing the facts, again typical; just shift the topic elsewhere and avoiding addressing the facts, just keep 'playing "I Touched You Last!!!" until everybody gets bored and goes away. lol pathetic.
No, the most offensive thing whas the US and France decided to label someone a communist even before they had any contact with Communist governments and forced them to get support from Communist regimes after bailing on them.Yeap, and what was most offensive to scumbag left wing communists here was we had the unmitigated gall to try and stop the spread of it.Did not say that at all. Please point out where I stated that.Holy shit.
Stalin was the innocent one? .
I merely pointed out that the whole war could have been avoided if the US, France and Britain allowed Vietnam their Independence back in 1946.The vietcong were actually good people and America and South Vietnam were the tyrants?
No it couldn't. Mao was going to run the place, and as much as he could grab after the war. Viet Nam had no hope of independence. Mao ordered Ho to attack at Dein Ben Phu, and had ordered him to go on from there and attack Vientiane and then Cambodia. It's a lie that Stalin or Mao were anything but scumbags and would have left any of their neighboring countries alone. Ho didn't want to be used and get his own men sacrificed so he ran to Stalin for a mentor, and got Mao off his back, for a while anyway. To ignore Viet Nam would be to cede Asia to Mao and Stalin. Unacceptable, period. Somethimes all the choices are bad, and we have to go with the least bad options. that's just real life.
America became less and less inclined to support Ho Chi Min due to his Communist affiliation yet at the same time American analysts could not draw any link between Ho Chi Minh and Moscow, writing that Ho Chi Minh did not seem to be following any directive from Moscow and that the policies of Ho Chi Minh did not correlate with Russian policy.
...Had the United States or France given support to Ho Chi Minh and supported the right of Vietnam to self determination at any time up to this point, it is very likely that Vietnam would never have pursued Communism. The only reason that the Vietnamese did was because the Communists were the only ones who were supporting Vietnam's goal of independence.
They were. When it comes to the subject of Vietnam the US were tyrants. We haven't even gotten into Agent Orange, the Gulf Of Tonkin incident or the Mai Lai Massacre. The US on this issue were tyrants. Only a blind nationalist yourself doesn't see this.It is too bad that the left still believes America were the tyrants.
Is the profanity coming out because you know deep down you're wrongLook at the unreal scumbag posting here.
What do the atrocities of Stalin have to do with this? Everyone know Stalin's atrocities. Again, nothing to do with Vietnam. Pol Pot's atrocities fail miserably when compared to the US's and like I posted before. The atrocities of Pol Pot would have never happened if the US didn't bomb Cambodia to smithereens and you are also glossing over the fact that the US supported the Khmer Rouge.The asshole still has not acknowledged any of the atrocities done by the vietcong, stalin, Pol pot, none of them.
Please point out anything I stated that is not accurate.Instead he cast aspersions at of course America. They are such unreal scumbags with no clue about world history.
Roosevelt’s promise to grant independence to the Philippines buoyed Ho Chi Minh, for the American President had also urged the European colonial powers to grant independence to their own colonies. Ho hoped that his case for the independence of Vietnam would reach the attention of “the great president Roosevelt.”
The situation changed somewhat, however, after de Gaulle’s visit to America the summer of 1944. The French leader proposed the idea of a French federation in which Indochina would have representation. As for the Vietnamese, they wanted Vietnamese unity and independence, not Indochinese citizenship within a “French Union.” But Roosevelt wavered, finding it increasingly difficult to thwart the colonial claims of his close allies, England and the Free French.
After Roosevelt’s death, America’s diplomatic policy changed sharply. Only a few months after Ho’s declaration of independence, the American State Department’s Far Eastern Bureau declared that the United States would respect French sovereignty in Indochina. Roosevelt’s anti-colonialism was displaced by the Cold War’s demands for an anti-Communist foreign policy. By 1946 all official American references to Ho in Washington were prefixed with the word “Communist.” Dean Acheson, the Acting Secretary of State, branded Ho Chi Minh an “agent of international communism.” Though the American OSS officers in Hanoi had liked and trusted Ho, even joining him in celebrating his Vietnamese “Fourth of July,” by the end of the decade Ho had been transformed into a Communist enemy.
Doesn't really matter today. Looks like the east won that war considering we're in debt to china now.
Again, please challenge me on anything I posted you feel is not accurate. You yourself have been challenged on 2 of your baseless assertions and have not shown any evidence it happened. Which "fact" did you post that anyone is avoiding addressing. Still waiting for that assertion that "Mao ordered Ho to attack at Dein Ben Phu, and had ordered him to go on from there and attack Vientiane and then Cambodia"I was waiting for some fool to bring up elections
lol .. so you forgot that fool was yourself. typical.
So don't even begin to pretend you're all about free elections. If you were you would be criticizing the US which has done this numerous times.
You do know the definition of hypocrite, don't you?
Another nonsensical response, avoiding addressing the facts, again typical; just shift the topic elsewhere and avoiding addressing the facts, just keep 'playing "I Touched You Last!!!" until everybody gets bored and goes away. lol pathetic.
I have backed up everything I said and can provide further documentation. You spout nonsense with nothing to back it up.
Your reality is a conspiracy theory.Again, please challenge me on anything I posted you feel is not accurate. You yourself have been challenged on 2 of your baseless assertions and have not shown any evidence it happened. Which "fact" did you post that anyone is avoiding addressing. Still waiting for that assertion that "Mao ordered Ho to attack at Dein Ben Phu, and had ordered him to go on from there and attack Vientiane and then Cambodia"I was waiting for some fool to bring up elections
lol .. so you forgot that fool was yourself. typical.
So don't even begin to pretend you're all about free elections. If you were you would be criticizing the US which has done this numerous times.
You do know the definition of hypocrite, don't you?
Another nonsensical response, avoiding addressing the facts, again typical; just shift the topic elsewhere and avoiding addressing the facts, just keep 'playing "I Touched You Last!!!" until everybody gets bored and goes away. lol pathetic.
I have backed up everything I said and can provide further documentation. You spout nonsense with nothing to back it up.
you were done a long time ago. You had nothing then, and you never will. Go annoy the children in the conspiracy theory forums for a while.
[Indeed,they were never trying to win it,they had their hands tied.The domino theory was right and we should have gone in and won the war. However, it would have been better to have stayed out of it than to do it the way we did
Yep. I come from a military family and military community. One family friend was a pilot. He would fly over factories making weapons to kill Americans and if he had fired one shot at them would have been court marshaled, it killed him to not be able to do that.
Johnson turned the war into his economic policy
It was a civil war gotten into with the phony gulf of tonkin "incident", fast forward: over 58,000 Americans used for cannon fodder, hundreds of thousands Vietnamese dead. Now we have diplomatic relations , have trade and are going to have joint military exercises
The Gulf of Tonkin incident (Vietnamese: Sự kiện Vịnh Bắc Bộ), also known as the USS Maddox incident, involved what were originally claimed to be two separate confrontations involving North Vietnam and the United States in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. The original American report blamed North Vietnam for both incidents, but eventually became very controversial with widespread claims that either one or both incidents were false, and possibly purposefully so. On August 2, 1964, the destroyer USS Maddox, while performing a signals intelligence patrol as part of DESOTO operations, was pursued by three North Vietnamese Navy torpedo boats of the 135th Torpedo Squadron.[1][2] The Maddox fired 3 warning shots and the North Vietnamese boats then attacked with torpedoes and machine gun fire.[2] The Maddox expended over 280 3-inch and 5-inch shells in what was claimed to be a sea battle. One US aircraft was damaged, three North Vietnamese torpedo boats were allegedly damaged, and four North Vietnamese sailors were said to have been killed, with six more wounded. There were no U.S. casualties.[3] The Maddox "was unscathed except for a single bullet hole from a Vietnamese machine gun round."[2]
It was originally claimed by the National Security Agency that a Second Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead evidence was found of "Tonkin ghosts"[4] (false radar images) and not actual North Vietnamese torpedo boats. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former United States Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the August 2 USS Maddox attack happened with no Defense Department response, but the August 4 Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened.[5]
The outcome of these two incidents was the passage by Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying US conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam.
In 1995, former Secretary of Defense McNamara met with former Vietnam People's Army General Võ Nguyên Giáp to ask what happened on 4 August 1964 in the second Gulf of Tonkin Incident. "Absolutely nothing", Giáp replied.[6] Giáp claimed that the attack had been imaginary.[7]
In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded that Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese Navy on August 2, but that there were no North Vietnamese naval vessels present during the incident of August 4. The report stated regarding the first incident on August 2 that "at 1500G,[note 1] Captain Herrick ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G,[note 1] the Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first
Gulf of Tonkin incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
His point is the US lied to get themselves in a war with Vietnam. Ever hear of a False Flag Operation.[Indeed,they were never trying to win it,they had their hands tied.The domino theory was right and we should have gone in and won the war. However, it would have been better to have stayed out of it than to do it the way we did
Yep. I come from a military family and military community. One family friend was a pilot. He would fly over factories making weapons to kill Americans and if he had fired one shot at them would have been court marshaled, it killed him to not be able to do that.
Johnson turned the war into his economic policy
It was a civil war gotten into with the phony gulf of tonkin "incident", fast forward: over 58,000 Americans used for cannon fodder, hundreds of thousands Vietnamese dead. Now we have diplomatic relations , have trade and are going to have joint military exercises
The Gulf of Tonkin incident (Vietnamese: Sự kiện Vịnh Bắc Bộ), also known as the USS Maddox incident, involved what were originally claimed to be two separate confrontations involving North Vietnam and the United States in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. The original American report blamed North Vietnam for both incidents, but eventually became very controversial with widespread claims that either one or both incidents were false, and possibly purposefully so. On August 2, 1964, the destroyer USS Maddox, while performing a signals intelligence patrol as part of DESOTO operations, was pursued by three North Vietnamese Navy torpedo boats of the 135th Torpedo Squadron.[1][2] The Maddox fired 3 warning shots and the North Vietnamese boats then attacked with torpedoes and machine gun fire.[2] The Maddox expended over 280 3-inch and 5-inch shells in what was claimed to be a sea battle. One US aircraft was damaged, three North Vietnamese torpedo boats were allegedly damaged, and four North Vietnamese sailors were said to have been killed, with six more wounded. There were no U.S. casualties.[3] The Maddox "was unscathed except for a single bullet hole from a Vietnamese machine gun round."[2]
It was originally claimed by the National Security Agency that a Second Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead evidence was found of "Tonkin ghosts"[4] (false radar images) and not actual North Vietnamese torpedo boats. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former United States Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the August 2 USS Maddox attack happened with no Defense Department response, but the August 4 Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened.[5]
The outcome of these two incidents was the passage by Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying US conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam.
In 1995, former Secretary of Defense McNamara met with former Vietnam People's Army General Võ Nguyên Giáp to ask what happened on 4 August 1964 in the second Gulf of Tonkin Incident. "Absolutely nothing", Giáp replied.[6] Giáp claimed that the attack had been imaginary.[7]
In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded that Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese Navy on August 2, but that there were no North Vietnamese naval vessels present during the incident of August 4. The report stated regarding the first incident on August 2 that "at 1500G,[note 1] Captain Herrick ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G,[note 1] the Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first
Gulf of Tonkin incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No idea what your point is
