Shekels

[ForeverYoung436]

That (the Beowulf bit) would be "Old English" and the Chaucer bit would be "Middle English".
The point is the further back you go, the less mutually intelligible they are.

Sure. And we could refer to Modern Hebrew, Torah Hebrew or Rabbinical Hebrew. One of the reasons that Hebrew as a living, evolving language was able to be revived, though, was the consistency and continued use of the language over thousands of years. My understanding (and I am no where near a competent Hebrew speaker) is that many (most?) nouns and verbs remain near identical. There were changes in syntax (SVO as opposed to VSO), borrowed terms from other languages and the incorporation of 90,000 new words for modern ideas which didn't exist 3000 years ago, incorporation of vowel markings and punctuation. But the language is recognizably the same.

Maybe rylah or Lipush will come along and enlighten us further.

Basically a kid learning Hebrew today in the 1st grade in Israel,
and a kid who spoke the ancient Hebrew of the Torah,
could immediately have a conversation..

I'm not sure that such conversation would be easy..

"Our findings show two major domains of pedagogic issues: unfamiliar biblical linguistics and problematic content. Teachers reported student difficulties in understanding biblical Hebrew."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01416200.2015.1134442?src=recsys&journalCode=cbre20

Sure 2 people thousands of years apart will initially have difficulties conversing, but it will be a conversation.

The example of kids having difficulties understanding Torah Hebrew, rather confirms that it's actually mostly accessible to them rather than "walking in the dark". It's mostly the same vocabulary, with a bit different syntax.

Israeli kid reads a chapter in the Torah, and can tell You what is the main story about.
The same Israeli kid in 2nd-4th grade, will already have more vocabulary than in all the 5 books of Torah,
a vocabulary specific to his time, but that will cover 95% of what is needed.

On the other hand, I'm not sure an American or British kid could read Shakespeare.

I learned some Shakespeare in college. I got the gist of it but you're right. Torah and modern Hebrew are more alike than Shakespeare and modern English. Remarkable considering one is 4000 years apart and the other is only about 500 years apart. But the important thing about all this is...just like the English ppl and English language are indigenous to England, the same way are the Israeli ppl and their language indigenous to Israel.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Well, I don't need to do a survey to know neither cats can speak,
nor can most Arabs pronounce the letter 'p'.

That's just common sense and basic knowledge for anyone born in the middle east.

Excellent, the old "Everybody Knows" fallacy. "It's just common knowledge". You lose.

And you're mired in a cesspool of ethnocentricity if you think that "Arabs" must be speaking in English just because that's what you speak and

rylah is an Israeli and lives in the Middle East. He knows more about Arabs in the area and how they speak than you and I know.

Clearly he doesn't know how language learning works.

I spent considerable time among Arabs, which is where I learnt some Arabic, and while it's kind of a challenge to think of specific conversations involving the letter P, those conversations took place in either English or French, BOTH of which use the letter P, and there was never a time any of us got hung up on it. So his claim is, pun intended, perfidiously preposterous.

P is a plosive, virtually the same as the letter B but with more breath. It's not like it's even hard to do.

And btw I found a source for the ridiculous contention:

Israeli Legislator Argues With Straight Face That Palestine Can’t Exist Because There’s No P in Arabic

>> The remark came during a Knesset debate over a contentious proposal from opposition leader Isaac Herzog for Israel to unilaterally separate from the Palestinians in the absence of a two-state solution. Berko’s argument got an immediate response. “What? Did everyone hear this? Are you an idiot?” replied an MK from the opposition Meretz party. Arab lawmakers walked out in protest, reportedly muttering “P-P-P” under their breath.

The New York Times notes that the statement has been widely mocked in the Hebrew and Arabic media, with some joking that by her logic, there’s no pizza in America because English doesn’t have the Hebrew letter Tzadik, to make a tza sound. Jews might also be in trouble since there’s no J in Hebrew.

It might also blow Berko’s mind to learn that German, Egyptian, Chinese, and Japanese people, among many others, don’t actually refer to themselves by those names. <<
​

Long story short ---- he be trollin'.

While there is no ‘P’ sound, in Arabic, the word for “Palestine” in Arabic is “Falastin,” which also happens to be the similar pronunciation to its sister Semitic language - Hebrew.
​

Happens to be similar? What a ridiculous comment. Of course it is similar, because it's originally a Hebrew word and never was Arabic one.

And the word means "invaders", which is what the modern Palestinians are, ironically.

 

[Pogo]

Whence do you get this nonsense that "most Arabs can't pronounce (whatever)"?

What, did you just run out between posts with a tape recorder interviewing "all Arabs" and compile stats?
And when did you become the arbiter of "correct" Arabic pronunciation?

Just like there is no letter corresponding to the "kh" sound in the English alphabet, although there is a letter "khet" in Hebrew, in the same way there is no letter P in Arabic. This is why the Roman city in the West Bank called Neapolis became Nablus in Arabic. (It was originally called Shekhem by the Israelites.) Arabs don't call the land Palestine because they can't pronounce that name. I believe they call it Falistin. rylah is basically joking around and saying that the so-called Palestinians can't even pronounce the name of their own country. It would be like Jews calling our holiday Hanukkah instead of Chanukah because we can't pronounce the name of our very own festival.

Bullshit. My mother tongue is English but that doesn't somehow "prevent" me from pronouncing the kh sound of Arabic, the ü in German, the ñ in Spanish, the zh sound in French, or the nasals in Portuguese.

Good for you! I've had Gentile co-workers who couldn't pronounce Chanukah for the life of them.

It doesn't require an alphabet, all it requires is listening.

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

 

[Pogo]

That (the Beowulf bit) would be "Old English" and the Chaucer bit would be "Middle English".
The point is the further back you go, the less mutually intelligible they are.

Sure. And we could refer to Modern Hebrew, Torah Hebrew or Rabbinical Hebrew. One of the reasons that Hebrew as a living, evolving language was able to be revived, though, was the consistency and continued use of the language over thousands of years. My understanding (and I am no where near a competent Hebrew speaker) is that many (most?) nouns and verbs remain near identical. There were changes in syntax (SVO as opposed to VSO), borrowed terms from other languages and the incorporation of 90,000 new words for modern ideas which didn't exist 3000 years ago, incorporation of vowel markings and punctuation. But the language is recognizably the same.

Maybe rylah or Lipush will come along and enlighten us further.

Basically a kid learning Hebrew today in the 1st grade in Israel,
and a kid who spoke the ancient Hebrew of the Torah,
could immediately have a conversation..

I'm not sure that such conversation would be easy..

"Our findings show two major domains of pedagogic issues: unfamiliar biblical linguistics and problematic content. Teachers reported student difficulties in understanding biblical Hebrew."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01416200.2015.1134442?src=recsys&journalCode=cbre20

Sure 2 people thousands of years apart will initially have difficulties conversing, but it will be a conversation.

The example of kids having difficulties understanding Torah Hebrew, rather confirms that it's actually mostly accessible to them rather than "walking in the dark". It's mostly the same vocabulary, with a bit different syntax.

Israeli kid reads a chapter in the Torah, and can tell You what is the main story about.
The same Israeli kid in 2nd-4th grade, will already have more vocabulary than in all the 5 books of Torah,
a vocabulary specific to his time, but that will cover 95% of what is needed.

On the other hand, I'm not sure an American or British kid could read Shakespeare.

I learned some Shakespeare in college. I got the gist of it but you're right. Torah and modern Hebrew are more alike than Shakespeare and modern English. Remarkable considering one is 4000 years apart and the other is only about 500 years apart. But the important thing about all this is...just like the English ppl and English language are indigenous to England, the same way are the Israeli ppl and their language indigenous to Israel.

"Indigenous" only means it grew up there. In the case of English it's got a ton of loan words, significantly from Old Norse, from Old German our parent language, and unrelatedly from French due to invasion, plus innumerable terms taken from many languages as far spread out as Native American and Polynesian ones. Hebrew has also out of necessity taken on terms that didn't exist 2000 years ago as noted upthread (e.g. no language had the word radio before it was invented) including significant borrowings from Yiddish due to immigration and Arabic due to proximity.

No language is "pure" except Icelandic. They do it deliberately but it's an unnatural process. The natural process is for language to grow and adapt as it's used; if it's not used it won't grow and adapt. The reason you can make more of a connection between modern and ancient Hebrew is because it had a long dormancy period during which it was pretty much limited to written. Written language is static, spoken changes. That's why we still have a word like knight -- when that word was first written it was pronounced "kenicht" -- all the letters had function. It's also why something like French has so many unpronounced consonants --- when those words were first written down they were pronounced.

 

[Pogo]

Well, I don't need to do a survey to know neither cats can speak,
nor can most Arabs pronounce the letter 'p'.

That's just common sense and basic knowledge for anyone born in the middle east.

Excellent, the old "Everybody Knows" fallacy. "It's just common knowledge". You lose.

And you're mired in a cesspool of ethnocentricity if you think that "Arabs" must be speaking in English just because that's what you speak and

rylah is an Israeli and lives in the Middle East. He knows more about Arabs in the area and how they speak than you and I know.

Clearly he doesn't know how language learning works.

I spent considerable time among Arabs, which is where I learnt some Arabic, and while it's kind of a challenge to think of specific conversations involving the letter P, those conversations took place in either English or French, BOTH of which use the letter P, and there was never a time any of us got hung up on it. So his claim is, pun intended, perfidiously preposterous.

P is a plosive, virtually the same as the letter B but with more breath. It's not like it's even hard to do.

And btw I found a source for the ridiculous contention:

Israeli Legislator Argues With Straight Face That Palestine Can’t Exist Because There’s No P in Arabic

>> The remark came during a Knesset debate over a contentious proposal from opposition leader Isaac Herzog for Israel to unilaterally separate from the Palestinians in the absence of a two-state solution. Berko’s argument got an immediate response. “What? Did everyone hear this? Are you an idiot?” replied an MK from the opposition Meretz party. Arab lawmakers walked out in protest, reportedly muttering “P-P-P” under their breath.

The New York Times notes that the statement has been widely mocked in the Hebrew and Arabic media, with some joking that by her logic, there’s no pizza in America because English doesn’t have the Hebrew letter Tzadik, to make a tza sound. Jews might also be in trouble since there’s no J in Hebrew.

It might also blow Berko’s mind to learn that German, Egyptian, Chinese, and Japanese people, among many others, don’t actually refer to themselves by those names. <<
​

Long story short ---- he be trollin'.

While there is no ‘P’ sound, in Arabic, the word for “Palestine” in Arabic is “Falastin,” which also happens to be the similar pronunciation to its sister Semitic language - Hebrew.
​

Happens to be similar? What a ridiculous comment. Of course it is similar, because it's originally a Hebrew word and never was Arabic one.

It's a quote from the article. That's what >> .... << means.

Hate to be the one to break this to ya but languages borrow from each other all the time, including languages of "enemies". For instance in our weekly football games some team is going to run a "blitz".

 

[Shusha]

Written Torah Hebrew is especially static because of the requirement for perfect letter-for-letter preservation of the text.

 

[Coyote]

Whence do you get this nonsense that "most Arabs can't pronounce (whatever)"?

What, did you just run out between posts with a tape recorder interviewing "all Arabs" and compile stats?
And when did you become the arbiter of "correct" Arabic pronunciation?

Just like there is no letter corresponding to the "kh" sound in the English alphabet, although there is a letter "khet" in Hebrew, in the same way there is no letter P in Arabic. This is why the Roman city in the West Bank called Neapolis became Nablus in Arabic. (It was originally called Shekhem by the Israelites.) Arabs don't call the land Palestine because they can't pronounce that name. I believe they call it Falistin. rylah is basically joking around and saying that the so-called Palestinians can't even pronounce the name of their own country. It would be like Jews calling our holiday Hanukkah instead of Chanukah because we can't pronounce the name of our very own festival.

Bullshit. My mother tongue is English but that doesn't somehow "prevent" me from pronouncing the kh sound of Arabic, the ü in German, the ñ in Spanish, the zh sound in French, or the nasals in Portuguese. It doesn't depend on having a letter in your native alphabet, nor is anyone limited to that alphabet.

Anyway my thrust was more at his sweeping generalization.

But I think rylah's point is deeper. "Palestine" isn't an Arabic name because there isn't even a letter P in their alphabet. It's a Roman name. The Romans forced the Jews out of Judea, and they renamed the country Palestine after the Jews' bitterest enemies--the Philistines. The Romans tried to erase Jewish history, and now the so-called Palestinians are trying to do the same thing today.

The Palestinians didn’t start out Arabic...their presence in the region preceded the Muslim conquest. I don’t understand why the argument matters other than to serve to erase a people.

Well, I don't believe the Palestinians are the same people that have lived there since Canaanite times, which is the popular myth these days. They were imported into the area from Arabia, Egypt and Syria.

Except that doesn’t fit with the history of conquests, what happens with native populations or the study of population genetics.

 

[Coyote]

Excellent, the old "Everybody Knows" fallacy. "It's just common knowledge". You lose.

And you're mired in a cesspool of ethnocentricity if you think that "Arabs" must be speaking in English just because that's what you speak and

rylah is an Israeli and lives in the Middle East. He knows more about Arabs in the area and how they speak than you and I know.

Clearly he doesn't know how language learning works.

I spent considerable time among Arabs, which is where I learnt some Arabic, and while it's kind of a challenge to think of specific conversations involving the letter P, those conversations took place in either English or French, BOTH of which use the letter P, and there was never a time any of us got hung up on it. So his claim is, pun intended, perfidiously preposterous.

P is a plosive, virtually the same as the letter B but with more breath. It's not like it's even hard to do.

And btw I found a source for the ridiculous contention:

Israeli Legislator Argues With Straight Face That Palestine Can’t Exist Because There’s No P in Arabic

>> The remark came during a Knesset debate over a contentious proposal from opposition leader Isaac Herzog for Israel to unilaterally separate from the Palestinians in the absence of a two-state solution. Berko’s argument got an immediate response. “What? Did everyone hear this? Are you an idiot?” replied an MK from the opposition Meretz party. Arab lawmakers walked out in protest, reportedly muttering “P-P-P” under their breath.

The New York Times notes that the statement has been widely mocked in the Hebrew and Arabic media, with some joking that by her logic, there’s no pizza in America because English doesn’t have the Hebrew letter Tzadik, to make a tza sound. Jews might also be in trouble since there’s no J in Hebrew.

It might also blow Berko’s mind to learn that German, Egyptian, Chinese, and Japanese people, among many others, don’t actually refer to themselves by those names. <<
​

Long story short ---- he be trollin'.

While there is no ‘P’ sound, in Arabic, the word for “Palestine” in Arabic is “Falastin,” which also happens to be the similar pronunciation to its sister Semitic language - Hebrew.
​

Happens to be similar? What a ridiculous comment. Of course it is similar, because it's originally a Hebrew word and never was Arabic one.

And the word means "invaders", which is what the modern Palestinians are, ironically.

They are no more invaders than modern Jews who immigrated from Europe.

 

[rylah]

Just like there is no letter corresponding to the "kh" sound in the English alphabet, although there is a letter "khet" in Hebrew, in the same way there is no letter P in Arabic. This is why the Roman city in the West Bank called Neapolis became Nablus in Arabic. (It was originally called Shekhem by the Israelites.) Arabs don't call the land Palestine because they can't pronounce that name. I believe they call it Falistin. rylah is basically joking around and saying that the so-called Palestinians can't even pronounce the name of their own country. It would be like Jews calling our holiday Hanukkah instead of Chanukah because we can't pronounce the name of our very own festival.

Bullshit. My mother tongue is English but that doesn't somehow "prevent" me from pronouncing the kh sound of Arabic, the ü in German, the ñ in Spanish, the zh sound in French, or the nasals in Portuguese. It doesn't depend on having a letter in your native alphabet, nor is anyone limited to that alphabet.

Anyway my thrust was more at his sweeping generalization.

But I think rylah's point is deeper. "Palestine" isn't an Arabic name because there isn't even a letter P in their alphabet. It's a Roman name. The Romans forced the Jews out of Judea, and they renamed the country Palestine after the Jews' bitterest enemies--the Philistines. The Romans tried to erase Jewish history, and now the so-called Palestinians are trying to do the same thing today.

The Palestinians didn’t start out Arabic...their presence in the region preceded the Muslim conquest. I don’t understand why the argument matters other than to serve to erase a people.

Well, I don't believe the Palestinians are the same people that have lived there since Canaanite times, which is the popular myth these days. They were imported into the area from Arabia, Egypt and Syria.

Except that doesn’t fit with the history of conquests, what happens with native populations or the study of population genetics.

Genetics is a tricky thing, especially when mixed with politics.
Basically a "blood purity" narrative.

People usually rely on some sensationalist quote in the media, rather than take the time to actually read and compare the extensive research.

But at the end of the day, to connect genetics to a land takes a cultural parallel marker,
a distinct population for a large enough sample, as not to merely rely on 5 skeletons that might fit the agenda.

From the most extensive researches I've seen, most conclude that naturally most close relationships are between the same cultural - religious groups.

 

[rylah]

rylah is an Israeli and lives in the Middle East. He knows more about Arabs in the area and how they speak than you and I know.

Clearly he doesn't know how language learning works.

I spent considerable time among Arabs, which is where I learnt some Arabic, and while it's kind of a challenge to think of specific conversations involving the letter P, those conversations took place in either English or French, BOTH of which use the letter P, and there was never a time any of us got hung up on it. So his claim is, pun intended, perfidiously preposterous.

P is a plosive, virtually the same as the letter B but with more breath. It's not like it's even hard to do.

And btw I found a source for the ridiculous contention:

Israeli Legislator Argues With Straight Face That Palestine Can’t Exist Because There’s No P in Arabic

>> The remark came during a Knesset debate over a contentious proposal from opposition leader Isaac Herzog for Israel to unilaterally separate from the Palestinians in the absence of a two-state solution. Berko’s argument got an immediate response. “What? Did everyone hear this? Are you an idiot?” replied an MK from the opposition Meretz party. Arab lawmakers walked out in protest, reportedly muttering “P-P-P” under their breath.

The New York Times notes that the statement has been widely mocked in the Hebrew and Arabic media, with some joking that by her logic, there’s no pizza in America because English doesn’t have the Hebrew letter Tzadik, to make a tza sound. Jews might also be in trouble since there’s no J in Hebrew.

It might also blow Berko’s mind to learn that German, Egyptian, Chinese, and Japanese people, among many others, don’t actually refer to themselves by those names. <<
​

Long story short ---- he be trollin'.

While there is no ‘P’ sound, in Arabic, the word for “Palestine” in Arabic is “Falastin,” which also happens to be the similar pronunciation to its sister Semitic language - Hebrew.
​

Happens to be similar? What a ridiculous comment. Of course it is similar, because it's originally a Hebrew word and never was Arabic one.

And the word means "invaders", which is what the modern Palestinians are, ironically.

They are no more invaders than modern Jews who immigrated from Europe.

Well maybe that's because Jews who returned from Europe, actually knew what the word "Palestinian" means in the language of the land

However majority of Jews in Israel were expelled from the same Arab countries,
that the local Arabs came from.

 

[rylah]

Just like there is no letter corresponding to the "kh" sound in the English alphabet, although there is a letter "khet" in Hebrew, in the same way there is no letter P in Arabic. This is why the Roman city in the West Bank called Neapolis became Nablus in Arabic. (It was originally called Shekhem by the Israelites.) Arabs don't call the land Palestine because they can't pronounce that name. I believe they call it Falistin. rylah is basically joking around and saying that the so-called Palestinians can't even pronounce the name of their own country. It would be like Jews calling our holiday Hanukkah instead of Chanukah because we can't pronounce the name of our very own festival.

Bullshit. My mother tongue is English but that doesn't somehow "prevent" me from pronouncing the kh sound of Arabic, the ü in German, the ñ in Spanish, the zh sound in French, or the nasals in Portuguese.

Good for you! I've had Gentile co-workers who couldn't pronounce Chanukah for the life of them.

It doesn't require an alphabet, all it requires is listening.

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

 

[Pogo]

Bullshit. My mother tongue is English but that doesn't somehow "prevent" me from pronouncing the kh sound of Arabic, the ü in German, the ñ in Spanish, the zh sound in French, or the nasals in Portuguese.

Good for you! I've had Gentile co-workers who couldn't pronounce Chanukah for the life of them.

It doesn't require an alphabet, all it requires is listening.

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

Know what "America" means?

 

[Shusha]

Good for you! I've had Gentile co-workers who couldn't pronounce Chanukah for the life of them.

It doesn't require an alphabet, all it requires is listening.

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

Know what "America" means?

Are Italians claiming collective native status in the Americas now?

 

[Pogo]

It doesn't require an alphabet, all it requires is listening.

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

Know what "America" means?

Are Italians claiming collective native status in the Americas now?

Uhhh nnnnnnno. What the poster said was

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously, when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

It's a non-sequitur. "America" has no meaning in English. Neither does "Canada". Doesn't seem to stop us.

 

[Shusha]

It requires training. Of course after appropriate training Arabs can pronounce the sound "p". Even parrots can do it. The point is that "Palestinians" is not an Arab native word. And the point is that this word, a foreign word, is used to name a part of Arab population. Moreover, it's not just a foreign word, but a word originated from their enemy's language.

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

Know what "America" means?

Are Italians claiming collective native status in the Americas now?

Uhhh nnnnnnno. What the poster said was

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously, when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

It's a non-sequitur. "America" has no meaning in English. Neither does "Canada". Doesn't seem to stop us.

rylah 's point is that "America" and "Canada" don't need to have meaning in English, because the European settlers of the Americas are not claiming native status over the Americas. If they WERE claiming native status, they should have a native name for the place, in their own language. Kinda like the native name for that part of *ahem* "Palestine" is Judea and Samaria.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are descendants of all the many peoples who have lived in that region over the centuries. The idea that they were magically transported there upon a Muslim conquest is ludicrous and serves one purpose: marginalizing them and their rights. That is it.

When Arab culture conquered large swaths of the area, local cultures became arabicized. But the people are still the same people who lived there prior. How inconvenient for those who want to portray them as invaders.

 

[Coyote]

You said send them to another place or give their territory to another nationality? I strongly disagree with the former. People are tied to place. Just because it is inconvenient to the controlling powers does not mean they should be dispossessed. Ability or lack there of to realize self determination is not a reason for mass expulsions which could end up destroying their cultural identity.

I absolutely disagree. It is a long the same lines as saying send all the Jewish settlers back to Israel proper where they share a common culture, language and faith and give the occupied territories to the Palestinians.

Well, I was suggesting ceding territory to another nation.

And also let's not minimize the security threat by labeling it an "inconvenience to the controlling powers".

I'm not convinced anyone is suggesting mass expulsions, at least not on Israel's side. (Abbas and the Arabs certainly are suggesting such a thing, which I agree is unconscionable.) I believe some are suggesting expulsion of those who are security threats, and I don't see that as necessarily problematic.

But, rather, if we consider the problem as being the need to separate these two groups, there is some possibility that people will have to be uprooted. Would voluntary relocation be an acceptable solution?

Voluntary is always acceptable imo.

 

[Pogo]

Of course it's not an Arab(ic) native words. Words from foreign languages tend to be that way.

Again, WHY would they be using the English term when speaking Arabic? Two Germans talking about their own country don't call it "Germany", and it's not because German doesn't have a soft G.

This whole point about the letter P derives from a mindless gaffe committed in the Knesset, for which the gaffer was rightly ridiculed. It's not to be taken seriously.

The fact about lack of 'P' merely reminds of an inner self contradiction,
of a claim to native culture, in a land to name which it needs to borrow foreign terms.

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously,
when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

Know what "America" means?

Are Italians claiming collective native status in the Americas now?

Uhhh nnnnnnno. What the poster said was

How can a collective claim to native status, be taken in anyway seriously, when their term for that land has no meaning in their language?

It's a non-sequitur. "America" has no meaning in English. Neither does "Canada". Doesn't seem to stop us.

rylah 's point is that "America" and "Canada" don't need to have meaning in English, because the European settlers of the Americas are not claiming native status over the Americas. If they WERE claiming native status, they should have a native name for the place, in their own language. Kinda like the native name for that part of *ahem* "Palestine" is Judea and Samaria.

Depends on what "native status" is supposed to mean. Ask any number of wags on this site if they are "native American".

 

[Shusha]

Depends on what "native status" is supposed to mean. Ask any number of wags on this site if they are "native American".

Well, I am certainly not. My ancestry is European settler (Scots, Irish and German).

But I think "native status" has a very specific meaning. And I think that meaning matters in this context.

 

[rylah]

The Palestinians are descendants of all the many peoples who have lived in that region over the centuries. The idea that they were magically transported there upon a Muslim conquest is ludicrous and serves one purpose: marginalizing them and their rights. That is it.

When Arab culture conquered large swaths of the area, local cultures became arabicized. But the people are still the same people who lived there prior. How inconvenient for those who want to portray them as invaders.

Well if they lived there "for centuries" that certainly confirms the historic parallel of conquest and colonization, through means of physical elimination of the indigenous culture while constant migration.

Indeed what you say is a ludicrous straw man fallacy, Muslim conquests were long enough to completely shift entire populations. They weren't a stable regime neither, Caliphates changed conquering each other, each time bringing different tribes along. This was done 4 times throughout the history of Muslim invasions.

That's exactly why you have no other choice but to use vague generalizations of other identities,
instead of showing an original one. Because the only way to do that is to rip off from the only clearly defined nation, which detailed history fills libraries.

You need to invent a whole new revision of history for that collective only to slightly make an impression of a possibility for a common identity. But that is completely detached from reality, because not only does the collective strongly identify with foreign nations, but also literally calls itself by the word that means 'invaders' in the language of the land.

How inconvenient for those who's main characters of the latest pseudo-historic fiction,
refuse to play the role.