Sending Kids to jail for profit

[Avatar4321]

It seems the argument should be against privatizing judges not the prisons. But whatever, it's not privatization that causes things like this to happen, it's corruption and greed and the public sector is hardly immune to that either.

I would like to further discuss the points Killuminati raised, but I'm not sure the conversation can stay rational. Is anyone up for another thread where we talk about it and play nice?

You have to understand that to people like TM, its not the individuals that are to blame. its the system. Suggest people be more honest, then you are forcing your faith on people. but its perfectly alright to suggest that these corrupt politicians in government have more power to fix things.

 

[Avatar4321]

so fair enough with a good attorney...

what about blacks with the public defender...

and may be it's more an issue of wealth vs. non wealth

The Public Defenders are usually better attorneys then the privately paid ones just because they have dealt with alot more cases.

No the problem isnt the attorneys. The problem is the criminals. Do you know how frustrating it is to see people not even care enough about their own defense to show up? Or when they make full on confessions to the police before they even contact the attorney?

Its all about personal responsibility. People refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

There are occasionally corrupt judges. Alright probably about half. But corrupt judges dont make innocent clients. When people break they law they have very little room to work in.

 

[Avatar4321]

Video: Cop Punches Woman In Face Four Times During Arrest For Riding A Bike

Yeah... what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Skeptik]

Why does the US have more prisoners per capita than any other nation?

Guns, poverty, illegal immigrants, drugs, gangs, ... you name it and the US has a major problem with it. While other western countries only have a few of those as major problems.

The other reason is that other nations don't punish everyone the right way because they don't want to build new prisons, prisoners are released earlier because the prisons are full (common practice in Europe) or they get a much weaker punishment by the judge because the judge knows that his punishment would otherwise not be carried out.

Other nations have guns, illegal immigrants, drugs, and gangs, too. Our rate of incarceration isn't just greater than that of other Western countries, but than that of all countries. Some of those countries have much greater problems than we do, and are far and away more authoritarian.

It it is a matter of us keeping criminals locked up, while other nations let them out, then our crime rate should be a lot less, shouldn't it?

 

[garyd]

Sorry no country has even close to the problems we've got. Not in the West anyway. According to the CIA fact Book France is roughly 90% French, Germany 90% German and so forth. Most of the rest of the world has far tougher immigration laws than we do and they rigorously enforce them.

 

[Agnapostate]

You'll find there isn't one.

Here is the info you need: Community Program Locations - Utah Juvenile Justice Services

You can make a single phone call and get the information.

As I suspected I would, I found your claims to be inaccurate.

There are several steps that you need to take to remedy your ignorance. Firstly, you need to realize that any state contract made with privately mental health treatment facilities, teen residential programs, wilderness therapy programs, therapeutic boarding schools, boot camps or any other behavior modification facility constitutes a connection of the nature that I mentioned.

Secondly, you need to realize that privatization concerns are not limited to behavior modification facilities, but are rather connected to all private operators who, in practical terms, are permitted to act with essentially dictatorial impunity despite state promises of regulation.

I've just received confirmation regarding court ordered referrals to Cross Creek in Utah. Your mention of parental referrals was inappropriate, since parents cannot alter court decisions to refer to BMF's.

 

[Skeptik]

Sorry no country has even close to the problems we've got. Not in the West anyway. According to the CIA fact Book France is roughly 90% French, Germany 90% German and so forth. Most of the rest of the world has far tougher immigration laws than we do and they rigorously enforce them.

Do you think that the US is less than 90% American? Estimating 12 million illegals out of 200 million population, that leaves 94% Americans.

Further, most of the illegals in the US cause no problems. The ones in Europe, on the other hand, include far more Islamic radicals than ours do.

No, I think we have to look elsewhere for the answer to why we have so many incarcerated. I'd look first at our drug laws, and the rate of addiction.

 

[catzmeow]

As I suspected I would, I found your claims to be inaccurate.

Proof?

Firstly, you need to realize that any state contract made with privately mental health treatment facilities, teen residential programs, wilderness therapy programs, therapeutic boarding schools, boot camps or any other behavior modification facility constitutes a connection of the nature that I mentioned.

Except that the WWASPs are not just ANY private mental health facility. So, FAIL.

You specifically suggested that the WWASPs fell into this category of contracting with state juvenile justice programs, and thus were relevant to this discussion. When you prove this connection through providing evidence, then we have something to talk about. I think you realize now that you cannot prove your claims, and are thus attempting to shift the discussion.

Secondly, you need to realize that privatization concerns are not limited to behavior modification facilities, but are rather connected to all private operators who, in practical terms, are permitted to act with essentially dictatorial impunity despite state promises of regulation.

Private contractors are actually EASIER to regulate than state agencies because private contractors can be terminated with relative ease. Firing state employees or reforming a statewide system's culture is considerably more difficult.

Still waiting for your evidence.

 

[catzmeow]

I've just received confirmation regarding court ordered referrals to Cross Creek in Utah. Your mention of parental referrals was inappropriate, since parents cannot alter court decisions to refer to BMF's.

Do you plan to share this confirmation with the rest of us, or simply to make the claim without substantive evidence?

Parents can't alter court decisions once the court has custody of a juvenile for delinquent acts, or in the case of neglect/abuse. Once a juvenile court or family court has custody of a delinquent, they become de facto guardians.

The WWASPs operate by serving the children of wealthy fuck ups. They are different from privately operated juvenile facilities that operate using state contracts.

Furthermore, I notice you've distinctly not mentioned the two specific WWASPs you previously brought up, the ones located outside the US.

Interesting. Ever plan to acknowledge that NEITHER of those sites ever accepted referrals from ANY juvenile justice entity in the U.S.?

Of course, the fact that you've dropped them like a hot rock suggests you already realize this, but your behavior is such that I must admit to enjoying rubbing your face in your ignorance.

 

[catzmeow]

For PROFIT prisons are an anathema to a democratic society.

They encentivize society to become extremely oppressive because they REWARD injustice operating under the color of the law.

Does it surprise anyone that a pig like CHEYNEY is a big investor in these criminal enterprises?

Putting people in prison should be something that this society eschews and only does for the protection of society from truly evil and dangerous people.

For profit prisons makes putting non violent people in prison a boon to those who own those prisons and, since we now have industries which hire prisoners at slave wages, these prisons are doublely menacing to freedom.

Basically I think that any person who buys into for profit prisons and who supports the concept of making prisoners work as pittance-wage-slaves for corporation is basically telling us that they are fascist motherfuckers.

I actually disagree. Some for-profit entities are able to provide the same, or better services, for less cost than state entities. I think that we should evaluate these programs on an individual basis, and use the good programs and cut loose the bad programs.

When you talk about juvenile justice contractors, what you often find is that the people who are contracting have a deep commitment to helping kids, and have a clearer vision of what needs to be done than do state agencies. I think about my personal experiences with the Glen Mills School, which takes juvenile offenders from all over the U.S., provides them with a better education than they would obtain in the average secure juvenile facility, provides them with opportunities to play competitive sports, and has worked hard to create a positive peer culture that reinforces core social values. In comparison, my experience with the average juvenile facility in many western states is that kids are just being warehoused with the assumption that they will move on into the prison system. There is no accountability in regards to tracking state systems on the basis of % of kids who graduate, recidivate, etc. Whereas, in good systems, private contractors are evaluated on that basis. They have a financial incentive (the contract) to deliver good services (or potentially lose the contract).

The Job Corps system (and I worked for a job corps center for 3 years) is similar. SOme are federally run, with federal employees. Others are privately contracted. The private contractors out-perform the federally-run centers year after year because they have a financial incentive to do so.

Who benefits? The youths themselves.

 

[Agnapostate]

Do you plan to share this confirmation with the rest of us, or simply to make the claim without substantive evidence?

Parents can't alter court decisions once the court has custody of a juvenile for delinquent acts, or in the case of neglect/abuse. Once a juvenile court or family court has custody of a delinquent, they become de facto guardians.

The WWASPs operate by serving the children of wealthy fuck ups. They are different from privately operated juvenile facilities that operate using state contracts.

Furthermore, I notice you've distinctly not mentioned the two specific WWASPs you previously brought up, the ones located outside the US.

Interesting. Ever plan to acknowledge that NEITHER of those sites ever accepted referrals from ANY juvenile justice entity in the U.S.?

Of course, the fact that you've dropped them like a hot rock suggests you already realize this, but your behavior is such that I must admit to enjoying rubbing your face in your ignorance.

I never specifically claimed that those institutions accepted court referrals, and your assumption that they did likely comes as a result of your own ignorance or stupidity. Again, you are simply unaware of the structure of WWASP programs, and the nature of their collaboration with state authorities in Utah.

Information on state referrals to Cross Creek specifically comes from the testimony of former prisoners there. (Though they weren't involved in the congressional hearings.) I could forward you their contact information if you believe they have cause to be deceptive.

Moreover, the reference was specifically intended to emphasize the unregulated nature of private facilities. Your problem is that you live in a utopian fantasy where the promises of public authorities to properly regulate private contractors are perfectly carried out. Again, this can be specifically attributed to your ignorance of the nature of privatization. For instance, your ignorance of political economy, (such as facets of dual labor market theory and principal-agent problems) is likely directly related to your failure to understand the nature of hierarchical privatization.

 

[catzmeow]

I never specifically claimed that those institutions accepted court referrals, and your assumption that they did likely comes as a result of your own ignorance or stupidity. Again, you are simply unaware of the structure of WWASP programs, and the nature of their collaboration with state authorities in Utah.

As I told you when you brought this bullshit up in the first place, if they DIDN'T accept court referrals, then a discussion of the WWASPs is irrelevant on a thread about privatization of the juvenile justice system. Period.

The fact that you threw in these facilities from OUTSIDE THE U.S., without even apparently realizing that they were located in Jamaica and elsewhere just proves my point.

If you want to talk about the WWASPs, then start your own damn thread, instead of interjecting irrelevancies into this one.

And, given your clear lack of knowledge on this topic, as demonstrated in this thread, for you to call ANYONE stupid is pretty damn ironic.

 

[catzmeow]

p.s. I take your puny red dots as compliments, Agnapedobear.

 

[Agnapostate]

As I told you when you brought this bullshit up in the first place, if they DIDN'T accept court referrals, then a discussion of the WWASPs is irrelevant on a thread about privatization of the juvenile justice system. Period.

The fact that you threw in these facilities from OUTSIDE THE U.S., without even apparently realizing that they were located in Jamaica and elsewhere just proves my point.

If you want to talk about the WWASPs, then start your own damn thread, instead of interjecting irrelevancies into this one.

And, given your clear lack of knowledge on this topic, as demonstrated in this thread, for you to call ANYONE stupid is pretty damn ironic.

Are you a complete moron? I visited the Casa By the Sea facility in Ensenada, so don't try and play your idiotic little games by telling me that I don't know that several of their facilities exist outside of the U.S. I can understand that you're flustered by the fact that your claims about WWASP coordination with juvenile authorities was clearly false, and you'd thus have to flail away like this, but at least try not to do it so blatantly.

p.s. I take your puny red dots as compliments, Agnapedobear.

You don't even know where that term originated from, because your pathetic ass wouldn't last a second on /b/.

 

[catzmeow]

Are you a complete moron?

I'm not the one who brought up a facility in Ensanada, Mexico, and tried to pretend that it was relevant to a discussion of privatization of U.S. juvenile justice facilities. THAT is moronic.

You don't even know where that term originated from, because your pathetic ass wouldn't last a second on /b/.

Wow. Yeah, your mad 4-chan skillz are incredibly impressive. That is, if incredibly impressive were defined as coma inducing stupidity.

 

[Agnapostate]

I'm not the one who brought up a facility in Ensanada, Mexico, and tried to pretend that it was relevant to a discussion of privatization of U.S. juvenile justice facilities. THAT is moronic.

No, those facilities were pertinent to the topic of privatization of behavioral modification facilities as a whole, not specifically within the U.S. To illustrate that, I mentioned the issue of Cross Creek in Utah (Lichfield's home state), which you inaccurately claimed did not have relations with state juvenile authorities. That claim was profoundly ignorant...which means it was probably a step up for you.

Wow. Yeah, your mad 4-chan skillz are incredibly impressive. That is, if incredibly impressive were defined as coma inducing stupidity.

Well yeah, I know we can't all be insanely advanced Web whizzes like you, coding HTML and all.

 

[Agnapostate]

An account just given to me:

Ok i can personally say that i was Court Ordered to go to Carolina Springs Academy... Heres the story:

I was on juvenille probation, Didnt want to go to school so i stayed home and threw keggers for 1st and 2nd period alot. One morning my mom and dad said we had an apointment. I got in the car and they had put the child locks on.... I am driven to Denton County Court. I am hauled inside by some rather not so nice police officers and made to speak to the judge. The judge said that not going to school was against my probation and that i was going to be locked up. So i got locked up.... My parents could have gotten me out the next day but instead they used this time of freedom from me to look into schools. One week went by.... still locked up.... two weeks goes by and i am still locked up... Finally i get another day in court with the judge to release me...

My parents go on telling the judge about a boarding school that they have found for me one being in jamaca, one being in south carolina. They explain that they want me to finish out my probation at either of these "AMAZING" schools.... well the judge agree's. Says she cant send me out of the country because of jurisdiction issues so i get Court Ordered to go to Carolina Springs Academy for the remainder of my probation... which she was so kind and extended since i was supposed to get off on Nov22 and this was the begining of Nov.. the 4th i beleave... So since she transfered my Probation to South Carolina i had to go to the school.

She agreed to release me but my parents said that my plane wouldnt leave until 3pm and my parents asked if the jail could hold me until 1:30pm seeing as it was 9AM when the judge finished with our hearing. So she agreed to hold me until later that day.... I was met at the exit doors of the jail by my parents and some of there friends... taken directally to the airport.... and they escorted me to the terminal and watched me get on the plane.(pre-9-11 as this was Nov 6th 1999.)

So there you have it... the State of Texas Officially Sent me to Carolina Springs Academy after the Request of my parents!

Problems such as this cannot be remedied by ignorance or ineptitude, especially not when that ignorance is combined with arrogance, as in the case of scatmeow.

 

[editec]

First, the judges helped the detention centers land a county contract worth $58 million. Then their alleged scheme was to guarantee the operators a steady income by detaining juveniles, often on petty stuff.
Many of the kids were railroaded, according to allegations lodged with the state Supreme Court last year by the Philadelphia-based Juvenile Law Center, an advocacy group.
In asking the court to intervene in April, the law center cited hundreds of examples where teens accused of minor mischief were pressured to waive their right to lawyers, and then shipped to a detention center.

Pretty horrible right?

Now look at the sentence

The judges, Luzerne County President Judge Mark A. Ciavarella Jr., 58, and his predecessor, Senior Judge Michael T. Conahan, 56, will serve seven years in jail under a plea agreement.

Seven years in jail for destroying the lives of children so they could..

They're alleged to have pocketed $2.6 million in payments from juvenile detention center operators.

SCrew that.

These guys need to be stripped of every cent they have, then they should be hanged.

I hope that their fellow prisoners will have the good sense to carry out a death sentence on both of these monsters because they surely deserve nothing less than capital punishement for these crimes.

Oh yeah, one more thing...the operators of the prion who were involved in this scheme need to be hanged right along with the Judges.

 

[doeton]

Penn judges plead guilty-profited $2.6 million jailing kids | Press Release

"2 juvenile Pennsylvania judges plead guilty to $2.6 million in bribes


Scranton federal court accepts guilty pleas of 2 judges for profiting $2.6 million by New York criminal lawyers

Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan along side their criminal attorneys pled guilty in federal court for accepting $2.6 million if payoffs from a private youth detention center."

 

[catzmeow]

Does this deserve an entirely new thread when it's a story we discussed to death last week?