Sarkozy Says Every French Child Will Learn About the Holocaust

[jillian]

no--you weren't clear at all.

yes. i was.

Being critical of Israel is not the same as criticizing a jew.

And you got that from what I said? Try again.

 

[dilloduck]

yes. i was.



And you got that from what I said? Try again.

pay attention-----you descibed the line where saying negative things about the State of Israel crosses into anti-semetism. My question was when does saying something negative about a jew cross into anti-semitism. Are you now going to claim that a jew and the State of Israel are one in the same ?? No wonder the poor guy was so paranoid to participate.

 

[Stefan]

If I criticize a Jew I criticize a Jew - no one would say I'm anti-christian if I criticize a christian. It's anti-semitic if I say "Hey, you're a shitbag because you're a Jew", but it's no anti-semitism if I say "Hey, you're an asshole kicking that guy's butt".

 

[editec]

Maybe Sarkozy wants to make the point that some French people were only too happy to hand over their Jewish neighbours to the authorities? And yet for all of that the Maquis, ordinary people enjoined in resistance against the Nazis, protected, among others, Jews.

Yeah, then the lesson needs to include how PROPAGANDA AND INTIMIDATION convinced decent people to go along (even if as non participants) in this crime against humanity.

It's not a clear cut issue of course. That's why it needs careful analysis and if children are being taught the issues they need to have those issues taught so that they understand what really happened and not just a postcard view of history.

The solution to governments going rogue to not to titillate us with what they did, but how they got away with it.

the Jews were systematically stripped of one right after the other.

The frogs in a pot of warming water system until the very end.

That NEEDS to be explained to people in a way that makes them STOP thinking

That can never happen to me. Why didn't the jews fight back? That can never happen here.

BULLSHIT, it DID happen here to Blacks and Indians, and we ALL know it.

 

[editec]

@Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.

Yes, I agree Stefan, BUT NOT in this thread. Jesus Christ on a Crutch, can we discuss these issues without bring in our anger about what happened in other threads?

This is an EXCELLENT starting point for some of us giving up some of our anger and paranoia if we do.

Because it isn't the victims or victimization we really need to understand, it's the passivity of good soldiers who only ordered the trucks.

 

[Diuretic]

Yeah, then the lesson needs to include how PROPAGANDA AND INTIMIDATION convinced decent people to go along (even if as non participants) in this crime against humanity.



The solution to governments going rogue to not to titillate us with what they did, but how they got away with it.

the Jews were systematically stripped of one right after the other.

The frogs in a pot of warming water system until the very end.

That NEEDS to be explained to people in a way that makes them STOP thinking

That can never happen to me. Why didn't the jews fight back? That can never happen here.

BULLSHIT, it DID happen here to Blacks and Indians, and we ALL know it.

What needs to be emphasised is that it can happen anywhere and at any time and that no human society is immune from this tendency or somehow morally above it. It's simple persecution. The dominant group persecutes a smaller group in a society. It's part of human nature and it's a part we have to be on guard against and which we need to try and overcome. It's not just freedom of the majority that's protected by eternal vigilance, we have to keep an eye on what's happening in all parts of a society to make sure persecution doesn't occur. Because, given the right environment, it will happen.

 

[editec]

I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis;

Offensive. Can't blame any Jew for seeing red when that is done

comparing zionism to apartheid;

An overstated analogy, but that's how it looks to outsiders

and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.

too late for that single state solution, damn it.

The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find...

I don't have trouble seeing it. I think you need some practice, though.

particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country.

There is so much overt anti-Jewish bullshit here, I am not surprised that you get punchdrunk and can't keep everyone's indidvidual positions (many of which are highly nuanced and not at all anti-Semetic, but actually quite commonly held opinions in the Knesset, too) straight.

Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.

Both organizations offend me, personally.

Foreign influence on Congress offends me.

Doantions to Pols from foreign sources offends me.

Doesn't matter if it's Isreal, China, Egypt, or wherever, it is not appropriate.

 

[Shogun]

yes. i was.



And you got that from what I said? Try again.

yes.

every time you respond with the scarlet letter, in fact, you prove that you are incapable of anything more profound.


now go ahead and call me an antisemite for pointing this out.

 

[dilloduck]

I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.

The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.

You just hate gentiles. We can pick one out a mile away. Don't try to deny it by claiming some of you best friends are gentiles either. We know that old cliche too.

 

[Wow]

Sarkozy is trying to save France from their decline into Liberal hatred and moral decay.

 

[dilloduck]

Sarkozy is trying to save France from their decline into Liberal hatred and moral decay.

Do you think they will all get tattoos also ?? It may be backfire tho cause tats are sorta popular these days.

 

[Wow]

Do you think they will all get tattoos also ?? It may be backfire tho cause tats are sorta popular these days.

I have a tattoo on my ass, it says "Kiss my ass"

 

[dilloduck]

I have a tattoo on my ass, it says "Kiss my ass"

Is it effective ?

 

[editec]

Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....

Yup!

beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.

Assuming that anyone who KNOWS the history of that land, and will acknowledge the history honestly is an anti-Semite ( or wants the end to Israel, hates Jews, and bla bla bla) is not only counterprodcutive, Jillian it's ANTI-INTELLECTUAL, too.

You owe me an apology, dear, if you don't want me to think you are little better than the dunderheaded racists on this board.

Given the blather you are fielding on this board filled with Jew haters, I can almost understand why you leapt to you vile conclusion about who I was, but you do owe me a public apology on this board.

I'm no more an anti-Semite than you are.

If I am a partisan I am a partisan for truth, on those rare occassions that I can find it.

 

[editec]

What needs to be emphasised is that it can happen anywhere and at any time and that no human society is immune from this tendency or somehow morally above it. It's simple persecution. The dominant group persecutes a smaller group in a society. It's part of human nature and it's a part we have to be on guard against and which we need to try and overcome. It's not just freedom of the majority that's protected by eternal vigilance, we have to keep an eye on what's happening in all parts of a society to make sure persecution doesn't occur. Because, given the right environment, it will happen.

Yup!

 

[editec]

It all depends on who you are talking to and who may read what you write. It's the lazy man's (person's ) way of debating. If you get called racist etc etc it only means the other person has no clue on how to reasonably deal with your POV. What you get called usually says little about you but a hell of a lot about the name caller.

Yup!

 

[dilloduck]

Yup!

Perhaps using a generic model instead of Jewish one would be far more effective in getting that message across.

 

[editec]

The ongoing LIE here is that some of the obvious Jew-Haters on this board think they can use the "historic injustice" argument to beat up Isreal, while giving the rest of humanity a total pass on its 10,000 year history of establishing their homelands by stealing their land from somebody else.

Some of the partisans for Isreal here think that anyone who acknowledges that Isreal's existence was another example of mankind's land theft must therefore hate Jews or at least hate Isreal.

They are blinded by their own ethnocentrism which they are accusing others of.

 

[dilloduck]

The ongoing LIE here is that some of the obvious Jew-Haters on this board think they can use the "historic injustice" argument to beat up Isreal, while giving the rest of humanity a total pass on its 10,000 year history of establishing their homelands by stealing their land from somebody else.

Some of the partisans for Isreal here think that anyone who acknowledges that Isreal's existence was another example of mankind's land theft must therefore hate Jews or at least hate Isreal.

They are blinded by their own ethnocentrism which they are accusing others of.

I don't see any obvious jew haters. Just those who disagree with the jewish explanation of how and why things are a violent and crazy there.

 

[Dr Grump]

I don't see any obvious jew haters. Just those who disagree with the jewish explanation of how and why things are a violent and crazy there.

You've never said a pro-Jew thing in your life....that's telling....

BTW, haven't you got another board to go to??