Sarkozy Says Every French Child Will Learn About the Holocaust

[Ravi]

Of course there is merit to helping children understand what Jewish children went through as a result of the holocaust. Who can deny that?

However..

There would be tremendous merit to helping children understand what non-Jewish children went through (and were told at the time about it) as those children witnessed the holocaust from the other side of the wire.

Here's why I say this..

If the point of teaching children about the holocaust is to help them prevent another one (and I hope that is its point), then they REALLY need to know how the passive citizen witnessing this horrible crime was talked into standing by and doing nothing while they saw their neighbors being carted off to the camps!

You see, if anyone becomes a victim of this sort of crime, they really don't need lessons in how to object to it. Nobody really needs lessons is why they won't like being starved and beaten and made slaves and gassed to death.

The lesson children have to learn is really how to stand up prejudice and injstice that isn't effecting them, but that they are a part of even if only passively.

In other words, we need to teach children how to RECOGNIZE NAD STAND UP TO INJUSTICE when they are NOT its intended target, and the people in charge are telling them that this is okay.


And let me tell you something folks...it isn't just the French children who need those lessons.

A casual perusal of this board indicates to me that many people here have difficulty indentifying injustice if it's not happening to them or theirs.

The rush to blame the victim is just as evident in the posts on this board as it was among the German people in 1940, believe me.

Excellent post.

 

[Diuretic]

Hear, hear.

 

[Stefan]

@Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.

 

[Diuretic]

@Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.

Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a reasonable critique of the policies of the government of Israel.

Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.

But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.

 

[Charles_Main]

Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a reasonable critique of the policies of the government of Israel.

Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.

But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.

Clearly one should be able to question Israel and not be called anti_Semitic Israel is a country, Jews are a people. I question Israel all the time. However many people attack Israel by lumping them all into the same zionist group, which is far from the reality of the people of Israel.

 

[Shogun]

Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a reasonable critique of the policies of the government of Israel.

Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.

But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.

feel free to jump over to the "why i dont post here" thread and point that out

 

[Stefan]

Diuretic, the difference you pointed out is just the problem I meant.

 

[jillian]

Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a reasonable critique of the policies of the government of Israel.

Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.

But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.

Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....

beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.

 

[Diuretic]

feel free to jump over to the "why i dont post here" thread and point that out

I was going to jump in but it turned into such a slugfest that I don't know if there's any point in it really.

 

[Diuretic]

Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....

beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.

It seems to me that anyone who involves themselves in that debate needs to proceed from the premise that Israel isn't going to be dissolved.

I must admit I don't know a lot - wait, let me rephrase that - I know nothing about the idea of a one state solution because it seems to me that means the extinguishing of a country.

I can't see any discussion going forward if that's the first premise. But it seems to me that the Palestians should have their own country. I thought the debate (the international debate) would be about how that happens. But that's probably me being naieve or simplistic or both.

 

[dilloduck]

Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....

beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.

When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?

 

[Ravi]

When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?

When you spell it jooooooo like Shog does, maybe.

 

[dilloduck]

When you spell it jooooooo like Shog does, maybe.

Well at least you gave it a shot.

 

[dilloduck]

Well at least you gave it a shot.

Actually the only ONE who gave it a shot. It must be a tough question, huh?

 

[Ravi]

It is a tough question, not just deciding what is anti-semitic, but deciding anything that is racist. It all boils down to intent, and intent is really hard to determine.

Where do you think the line is?

 

[dilloduck]

It is a tough question, not just deciding what is anti-semitic, but deciding anything that is racist. It all boils down to intent, and intent is really hard to determine.

Where do you think the line is?

I have no clue but I know I have been called a racist, sexist, bigot etc etc when that was the last thing I intended. You pretty much get nailed if you say something negative about a person who can claim some type of oppressed "status" even if your criticism doesn't have the least bit of relevence to said "status".
I could rant and rave about how much I hate Mel Brooks (for an example) and sure as shit I would be called anti-semitic. It's cliched, overused and a chicken shit way to avoid talking with people about "special" topics.

 

[Ravi]

I know, just today I was told that I actually hate white males. That was somewhat of a surprise. It'd be great if we could have a defining line, but it probably isn't possible.

On the plus side, I compared Obama to a monkey today and no one seemed to mind.

Maybe that's progress.

 

[dilloduck]

I know, just today I was told that I actually hate white males. That was somewhat of a surprise. It'd be great if we could have a defining line, but it probably isn't possible.

On the plus side, I compared Obama to a monkey today and no one seemed to mind.

Maybe that's progress.

It all depends on who you are talking to and who may read what you write. It's the lazy man's (person's ) way of debating. If you get called racist etc etc it only means the other person has no clue on how to reasonably deal with your POV. What you get called usually says little about you but a hell of a lot about the name caller.

 

[jillian]

When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?

I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.

The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.

 

[dilloduck]

I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.

The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.

no--you weren't clear at all.

Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism

Being critical of Israel is not the same as criticizing a jew.