Respect vs. Rights

[Annie]

And what I objected to was this:

While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

Now do you understand?

Again, rgs has the right to say what he wishes, just like you and I do. I can see the borderline nationalism interpretation, if not that what he was speaking to the respect of Semper regarding the one not standing. RGS knows that Semper agrees that the US is a great Nation.

 

[Taomon]

Are you calling me a racist for these views? I would love to see you connect the dots on that one.

No, I called you a nationalist fundamentalist.

 

[Taomon]

Again, rgs has the right to say what he wishes, just like you and I do. I can see the borderline nationalism interpretation, if not that what he was speaking to the respect of Semper regarding the one not standing. RGS knows that Semper agrees that the US is a great Nation.

Fine he has the right to say it and I have the right to point out that it is an incite for retaliation. Which is what I was implying in my posts.

Are we done with this one yet?

 

[Annie]

Fine he has the right to say it and I have the right to point out that it is an incite for retaliation. Which is what I was implying in my posts.

Are we done with this one yet?

The logic doesn't go where you said it did.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And what I objected to was this:

While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

Now do you understand?

I don't think I said that did I? Maybe 82Marine89?

I personally do not lose respect for someone because they won't stand for a pledge to the flag, as long as they are doing it for a REASON and not just to be ignorant.

In fact in some venues choosing to follow ones concious can be dangerous and so we should honor the bravery. However this kid sounds like he is doing it for no other reason then "because".

 

[Annie]

I don't think I said that did I? Maybe 82Marine89?

I personally do not lose respect for someone because they won't stand for a pledge to the flag, as long as they are doing it for a REASON and not just to be ignorant.

In fact in some venues choosing to follow ones concious can be dangerous and so we should honor the bravery. However this kid sounds like he is doing it for no other reason then "because".

Yeah, it was my screw up.

 

[Taomon]

The logic doesn't go where you said it did.

Meaning what? That I am not fully complying to your belief system? America was a great nation and we are on a steady downward spiral into fascism. This is spurred by nationalist ideals, such as America is "infallible" or "God Bless America."

I think the people of our nation are great. I think the Constitution is great. I don't think our nation is great anymore. We have sold out and that is our downfall.

I don't agree with burning the flag. I find this offensive as I am sure you do as well. That form of protest is too extreme, even for me. I think a better and more accurate statement would be to fold the flag in the shape of a body, rest it on a gurney with an IV and a heart monitor that is almost flat-lined.

 

[Taomon]

I don't think I said that did I? Maybe 82Marine89?

I personally do not lose respect for someone because they won't stand for a pledge to the flag, as long as they are doing it for a REASON and not just to be ignorant.

In fact in some venues choosing to follow ones concious can be dangerous and so we should honor the bravery. However this kid sounds like he is doing it for no other reason then "because".

You didn't say it, it was 82Marine89. But I concur with what you say.

 

[Annie]

Meaning what? That I am not fully complying to your belief system? America was a great nation and we are on a steady downward spiral into fascism. This is spurred by nationalist ideals, such as America is "infallible" or "God Bless America."

I think the people of our nation are great. I think the Constitution is great. I don't think our nation is great anymore. We have sold out and that is our downfall.

I don't agree with burning the flag. I find this offensive as I am sure you do as well. That form of protest is too extreme, even for me. I think a better and more accurate statement would be to fold the flag in the shape of a body, rest it on a gurney with an IV and a heart monitor that is almost flat-lined.

And I wouldn't get violent over someone not standing or burning the flag, but I'd let them know what I thought. Why shouldn't they do such, IMO? Because that flag represents our country. Flags are not nationalistic, nor is patriotism. Excessive patriotism is, sometimes I fear all this talk about 'imposing democracy' is heading in that direction, that we may agree on.

But making it clear that one disapproves of disrespect, that isn't violent, nor nationalistic.

 

[Taomon]

And I wouldn't get violent over someone not standing or burning the flag, but I'd let them know what I thought. Why shouldn't they do such, IMO? Because that flag represents our country. Flags are not nationalistic, nor is patriotism. Excessive patriotism is, sometimes I fear all this talk about 'imposing democracy' is heading in that direction, that we may agree on.

But making it clear that one disapproves of disrespect, that isn't violent, nor nationalistic.

Just to make things clear, I am not opposed to you or anyone else expressing their opinion to someone else who is protesting in one form or another. There is nothing more vital to our nation than dialogue.

 

[Annie]

Just to make things clear, I am not opposed to you or anyone else expressing their opinion to someone else who is protesting in one form or another. There is nothing more vital to our nation than dialogue.

and that was all marine was doing. That was my point, way too long ago.

 

[Taomon]

and that was all marine was doing. That was my point, way too long ago.

No, that was not what Marine was doing. What Marine was doing was saying that it was Semper Fi's duty to engage this kid and defend our nation (not in so many words).

 

[Annie]

No, that was not what Marine was doing. What Marine was doing was saying that it was Semper Fi's duty to engage this kid and defend our nation (not in so many words).

No, 'not in so many words,' only in YOUR interpretation of his words. Are you Palestinian?

 

[82Marine89]

No, I called you a nationalist fundamentalist.

Actually, what you said was...

Um, this type of extremist view is what underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism

Now connect the dots.

On edit, you said this...

Just to make things clear, I am not opposed to you or anyone else expressing their opinion to someone else who is protesting in one form or another. There is nothing more vital to our nation than dialogue.

Care to explain the hypocrisy?

 

[Taomon]

No, 'not in so many words,' only in YOUR interpretation of his words. Are you Palestinian?

HA HA, no. There are certain nuances lost in emails and message boards that are part of conversation; facial expressions, voice inflection, body language.

If I was a different person I would have viewed your remark as an attack. I know I am not Palestinian and I know why you said it and I know it was humorous.

I think you agree with Marine's contention and - even though you recognize certain nationalist undertones - you do not feel his intention was malicious.

Incidently, I don't think it was overtly malicious. I do think he is looking at the issue myopically and from a nationalist point of view, which is dangerous to say the least.

But my contention remains the same. He is right that Semper Fi should talk to his friend (and Semper Fi did express a friendly relationship with the kid). Marine's reasons for talking to the kid are wrong. Semper Fi does not have a duty to America to address the issue with the kid, he has an obligation to himself and his relationship with the kid to talk to him.

 

[82Marine89]

No, that was not what Marine was doing. What Marine was doing was saying that it was Semper Fi's duty to engage this kid and defend our nation (not in so many words).

So if he engaged him on his own it's OK, but if he did it at my urging it's wrong?

 

[Taomon]

Actually, what you said was...
"Um, this type of extremist view is what underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism"

Now connect the dots.

On edit, you said this...
"Just to make things clear, I am not opposed to you or anyone else expressing their opinion to someone else who is protesting in one form or another. There is nothing more vital to our nation than dialogue."
Care to explain the hypocrisy?

Yes, your rhetoric was an extremist view. Nationalism underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism. I wasn't saying you are a racist, I was saying Nationalism is used as an excuse for racism (as in the KKK and all over the Middle East and Asia).

I could have written that better and I apologize for the confusion.

However, as I stated before dialogue is imperative to our liberties. Your reason for Semper Fi addressing the kid was wrong. He does not have a duty to the country to address the kid. He has an obligation to himself and his relationship with the kid to talk to him.

Does that clear it up for you?

 

[Taomon]

So if he engaged him on his own it's OK, but if he did it at my urging it's wrong?

No, it would not be wrong to engage the kid at your urging. You have the right to say, yeah talk to the kid. The reasons that you posted for Semper Fi to talk to the kid was wrong.

 

[82Marine89]

Yes, your rhetoric was an extremist view. Nationalism underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism. I wasn't saying you are a racist, I was saying Nationalism is used as an excuse for racism (as in the KKK and all over the Middle East and Asia).

I could have written that better and I apologize for the confusion.

So I have an extremist view and I'm a Nationalist. OK. Nationalism is used as an excuse for racism and underlies violence and brutality. OK. But I'm none of that? How?

However, as I stated before dialogue is imperative to our liberties. Your reason for Semper Fi addressing the kid was wrong. He does not have a duty to the country to address the kid. He has an obligation to himself and his relationship with the kid to talk to him.

Does that clear it up for you?

You don't feel that as an American you have a duty to support and defend this Nation? Isn't that how we keep it strong? If you go back and read what I wrote, I never used the word 'duty'. I said do it out of respect for this great Nation. You went and read into it what wasn't there. I also said the kid didn't earn his respect. Key word being earn. Respect is earned, not given.

 

[Taomon]

So I have an extremist view and I'm a Nationalist. OK. Nationalism is used as an excuse for racism and underlies violence and brutality. OK. But I'm none of that? How?

I don't know if you are a racist or not. But nationalism does underline racist brutality. You seem to think that A equals B. But it doesn't. I stated very clearly that nationalist views are dangerous for that reason. If you are not a racist, having a nationalist view doesn't make you a racist. But it can prompt you to behave violently towards anyone who does not comply with your standard of patriotic behavior. And this mirrors racism and religious fanaticism.

I also stated that nationalism is secular fundamentalism. That doesn't mean that you don't believe in God. That means you are prescribing to a fanaticism that is not Godly at all.

You don't feel that as an American you have a duty to support and defend this Nation? Isn't that how we keep it strong? If you go back and read what I wrote, I never used the word 'duty'. I said do it out of respect for this great Nation. You went and read into it what wasn't there. I also said the kid didn't earn his respect. Key word being earn. Respect is earned, not given.

This is what you said: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 1st Amendment apply to the government? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I respect the rules of the property owner of whose property I am on. While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it."

So your contention is that Semper Fi has a duty to address the kid in defense of the country for not saying the pledge and not standing, which is your standard and NOT the kid's. You stated that the kid has done nothing to earn Semper Fi's respect (how do you know based on this post, Semper Fi has a friendly history with kid according to his post) and everything to lose it. Why? Based on your notion of acceptable behavior?

Your call to Semper Fi to address the issue in the name of America to defend respect for America is nationalist and extremist. Your dogging me about it shows your zeal-ism and possibly an underside of violence, if not belligerence.

And we do not enforce a standard of nationalism or patriotism that all citizens must commit to in order to make America strong. That is fascism. We keep American strong by keeping the rationalism of the Constitution alive no matter what the current political tides bring.

So, in light of 9/11 we weakened the nation when we allowed the Patriot Act to be established. We weakened the nation by allowing Bush to circumvent the FISA court and allow extra-ordinary renditions of enemy combatants. We weakened the nation when we suspended the writs of Habeas Corpus. We weakened the nation when we invaded Iraq. And we weaken the nation every time we try, as individuals and institutions, to enforce a regulation of patriotism and national identity.

America is a melting pot and that is one of our strengths.