Respect vs. Rights

[82Marine89]

I don't know if you are a racist or not. But nationalism does underline racist brutality. You seem to think that A equals B. But it doesn't. I stated very clearly that nationalist views are dangerous for that reason. If you are not a racist, having a nationalist view doesn't make you a racist. But it can prompt you to behave violently towards anyone who does not comply with your standard of patriotic behavior. And this mirrors racism and religious fanaticism.

I also stated that nationalism is secular fundamentalism. That doesn't mean that you don't believe in God. That means you are prescribing to a fanaticism that is not Godly at all.

You a Psychology major?

This is what you said: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 1st Amendment apply to the government? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I respect the rules of the property owner of whose property I am on. While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it."

So your contention is that Semper Fi has a duty to address the kid in defense of the country for not saying the pledge and not standing, which is your standard and NOT the kid's. You stated that the kid has done nothing to earn Semper Fi's respect (how do you know based on this post, Semper Fi has a friendly history with kid according to his post) and everything to lose it. Why? Based on your notion of acceptable behavior?

Your call to Semper Fi to address the issue in the name of America to defend respect for America is nationalist and extremist. Your dogging me about it shows your zeal-ism and possibly an underside of violence, if not belligerence.

And we do not enforce a standard of nationalism or patriotism that all citizens must commit to in order to make America strong. That is fascism. We keep American strong by keeping the rationalism of the Constitution alive no matter what the current political tides bring.

So, in light of 9/11 we weakened the nation when we allowed the Patriot Act to be established. We weakened the nation by allowing Bush to circumvent the FISA court and allow extra-ordinary renditions of enemy combatants. We weakened the nation when we suspended the writs of Habeas Corpus. We weakened the nation when we invaded Iraq. And we weaken the nation every time we try, as individuals and institutions, to enforce a regulation of patriotism and national identity.

America is a melting pot and that is one of our strengths.

So basically what your saying if I understood all of the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is it's OK for you to have your view, but not OK for me to have mine. Your view is good for America and mine is too extreme and harmful to society.

That sum it up?

 

[trobinett]

If you truly believe in the freedoms that the Constitution provides, then you must respect his freedom to not stand during the pledge of allegiance.

Why be a jerk? Show some respect.

the pledge of allegiance is still used to separate anyone who's political beliefs do not lean in the "Right" direction.

What a load............

My daughter chooses not to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

No surprise there!

Conformity and assimilation are huge contributors to ostracization and brutality. And that was not the intent of our founding fathers.

On THIS we can agree, even though I don't see the connection to the pledge of allegiance.

And if my house smelled like shit, please tell me.

No worries mate, I would.

 

[mattskramer]

My take:

If you want to stand, then stand. If you don’t want to stand, then don’t stand. People should not be obligated to stand. Still, those that don’t stand might get criticized and frowned upon. The choice is yours. .

 

[Taomon]

My take:

If you want to stand, then stand. If you don’t want to stand, then don’t stand. People should not be obligated to stand. Still, those that don’t stand might get criticized and frowned upon. The choice is yours. .

And that is the way it is supposed to be. Should do and forced to do are two separate things...worlds apart.

 

[Taomon]

If you truly believe in the freedoms that the Constitution provides, then you must respect his freedom to not stand during the pledge of allegiance.
Why be a jerk? Show some respect.

But you are then forcing your views on another. How do you feel about this kid not standing? You feel that it somehow insults you or the nation. But that is his right. End of story.

the pledge of allegiance is still used to separate anyone who's political beliefs do not lean in the "Right" direction.
What a load............

No, this is true. Look at the responses. You and I both know that when someone doesn't stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, there are diehards who take note and will treat that person differently, usually with violence. Teachers are human too. God forbid the teacher decides that no work this kid turns in will be an A unless he shows his allegiance to our national identity.

And that is the problem with prayer in school. That would be all we need is to show who is Christian and who is not. Christians have a history of abusing non-Christians. No need to rekindle that.

My daughter chooses not to stand for the pledge of allegiance.
No surprise there!

Maybe you think I teach my children to be anti-authority? I do teach them to question everything and always seek the truth. Nothing is more American than that.

On THIS we can agree, even though I don't see the connection to the pledge of allegiance.

Conformity and assimilation are huge contributors to ostracization and brutality. And that was not the intent of our founding fathers.

The pledge, like prayer in school and scholastic sports programs, separate the children into classes, conformists vs non-conformists, weak vs strong, rich vs poor, Christian vs non-Christian and so on. Why do you think the pledge is said at school? Give this one a moment to sink in. Think, why would the legislatures want the pledge said at school?

 

[Taomon]

You a Psychology major?

No sir I am not.

So basically what your saying if I understood all of the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is it's OK for you to have your view, but not OK for me to have mine. Your view is good for America and mine is too extreme and harmful to society.

That sum it up?

You are entitled to your views. You are not entitled to aggressively enforce your views on others with physical violence, nor are you allowed by law to encite others to levels of violence.

And your post smacked of retaliative violence. Now if that was not your intention, I apologize. I calls em as I sees em.

Would you feel the same about me if I stated that it is Semper Fi's duty to preserve America's integrity by shooting George W. Bush?

Of course you would. We all would. Inciting to violence and especially in the name of something, is dangerous. Your views are dangerous. They are your views and you are entitled to them. But that does not make them any less dangerous.

Does that sum it up for you?

 

[Annie]

Tao, I raised my kids to question things too. I also emphasized to them that they needed to be cognizant of what it was they were questioning. They needed to be able to articulate an answer beyond, "I don't want to or have to." I'm just guessing your kids are younger.

 

[Taomon]

Tao, I raised my kids to question things too. I also emphasized to them that they needed to be cognizant of what it was they were questioning. They needed to be able to articulate an answer beyond, "I don't want to or have to." I'm just guessing your kids are younger.

19, 18, 16, 14, and 11.

My 19 year old is off doing his thing. My 18 year old step son is in college. My 16 year old step daughter is staying with her father. My 14 and 11 year olds are fine. Smart as a whip. They have their reasons for not saying the Pledge. My younger one actually does say it and that is fine.

In my house, that is a choice one makes and we all respect that. Like dying one's hair or wearing a certain style of clothes. These things may be expressions of individuality, but they are only the outer-shells of ourselves. Our true nature lies in our words and actions.

And quite frankly, if anyone doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance because they don't feel like it, that is their choice. Who are we to judge?

 

[Annie]

19, 18, 16, 14, and 11.

My 19 year old is off doing his thing. My 18 year old step son is in college. My 16 year old step daughter is staying with her father. My 14 and 11 year olds are fine. Smart as a whip. They have their reasons for not saying the Pledge. My younger one actually does say it and that is fine.

In my house, that is a choice one makes and we all respect that. Like dying one's hair or wearing a certain style of clothes. These things may be expressions of individuality, but they are only the outer-shells of ourselves. Our true nature lies in our words and actions.

And quite frankly, if anyone doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance because they don't feel like it, that is their choice. Who are we to judge?

Their parents.

 

[82Marine89]

You are entitled to your views. You are not entitled to aggressively enforce your views on others with physical violence, nor are you allowed by law to encite others to levels of violence.

And your post smacked of retaliative violence. Now if that was not your intention, I apologize. I calls em as I sees em.

Would you feel the same about me if I stated that it is Semper Fi's duty to preserve America's integrity by shooting George W. Bush?

Of course you would. We all would. Inciting to violence and especially in the name of something, is dangerous. Your views are dangerous. They are your views and you are entitled to them. But that does not make them any less dangerous.

Does that sum it up for you?

Where the fuck did physical violence come from? Show me where I mentioned or inferred hurting someone.

 

[jillian]

19, 18, 16, 14, and 11.

My 19 year old is off doing his thing. My 18 year old step son is in college. My 16 year old step daughter is staying with her father. My 14 and 11 year olds are fine. Smart as a whip. They have their reasons for not saying the Pledge. My younger one actually does say it and that is fine.

In my house, that is a choice one makes and we all respect that. Like dying one's hair or wearing a certain style of clothes. These things may be expressions of individuality, but they are only the outer-shells of ourselves. Our true nature lies in our words and actions.

And quite frankly, if anyone doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance because they don't feel like it, that is their choice. Who are we to judge?

What one puts on is also indicative of how they wished to be seen by others. I make sure my son knows that, too.

If 14 and 11 years olds don't say the pledge, it's because of what they've been taught by their parents. Now, that's fine, but 11 year olds don't make that type of choice unilaterally.

I just think the person described in the OP is a jerk. Respect should always be shown, even if they don't want to say the pledge.... same as if you go to someone's Church and don't believe what they do. There isn't a good reason for being offensive.

 

[Annie]

What one puts on is also indicative of how they wished to be seen by others. I make sure my son knows that, too.

If 14 and 11 years olds don't say the pledge, it's because of what they've been taught by their parents. Now, that's fine, but 11 year olds don't make that type of choice unilaterally.

I just think the person described in the OP is a jerk. Respect should always be shown, even if they don't want to say the pledge.... same as if you go to someone's Church and don't believe what they do. There isn't a good reason for being offensive.

I must agree. From what I'm seeing his way to the 'perfect way' is being sabotaged by his agenda for others.

 

[trobinett]

19, 18, 16, 14, and 11.

My 19 year old is off doing his thing. My 18 year old step son is in college. My 16 year old step daughter is staying with her father. My 14 and 11 year olds are fine. Smart as a whip. They have their reasons for not saying the Pledge. My younger one actually does say it and that is fine.

In my house, that is a choice one makes and we all respect that. Like dying one's hair or wearing a certain style of clothes. These things may be expressions of individuality, but they are only the outer-shells of ourselves. Our true nature lies in our words and actions.

And quite frankly, if anyone doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance because they don't feel like it, that is their choice. Who are we to judge?

I suppose that's your right as a parent.

Don't understand why you don't teach respect though.

To my way of thinking, respect is one of the major components missing in today's American society.

There are similar recitals REQUIRED in other Western cultures, and no one seems to have a problem with those.

This countries liberals just seem to think, that ANYTHING, that requires their conformity is bad, and therefore deserves no respect.

I respectfully disagree.

I think it shows a shallow understanding of cooperation, and doesn't bring those of a community closer, but pushes them apart.

Freedom of speech, and freedom of expression goes only so far.

 

[Taomon]

Where the fuck did physical violence come from? Show me where I mentioned or inferred hurting someone.

In your original post to semper Fi your tone had an underlying message of "Get the freak and teach him a lesson"

 

[Taomon]

What one puts on is also indicative of how they wished to be seen by others. I make sure my son knows that, too.

If 14 and 11 years olds don't say the pledge, it's because of what they've been taught by their parents. Now, that's fine, but 11 year olds don't make that type of choice unilaterally.

I just think the person described in the OP is a jerk. Respect should always be shown, even if they don't want to say the pledge.... same as if you go to someone's Church and don't believe what they do. There isn't a good reason for being offensive.

And I have been to many churches. If everyone prays and I do not, no one notices. Besides, we make our choices and if one has enough cajones to make a statement, then they should have the integrity to back that up with conviction.

Hiding behind the respect notion is another way to say "Just fit in, cut your hair, don't wear jeans, listen to Country Music, etc."

And my 11 year old is mature enough to make up her own mind. She knows that my wife and I love her no matter what.

Plus, never judge a book by it's cover.

 

[Taomon]

I suppose that's your right as a parent.

Don't understand why you don't teach respect though.

To my way of thinking, respect is one of the major components missing in today's American society.

There are similar recitals REQUIRED in other Western cultures, and no one seems to have a problem with those.

This countries liberals just seem to think, that ANYTHING, that requires their conformity is bad, and therefore deserves no respect.

I respectfully disagree.

I think it shows a shallow understanding of cooperation, and doesn't bring those of a community closer, but pushes them apart.

Freedom of speech, and freedom of expression goes only so far.

And respect, in the way you propose limits freedom of political expression. If I met the president do you suppose I should mug for the camera and not ask him the hard questions that are screaming in my head...out of respect?

Of course I would not belittle him in front of others, out of respect. But I would not pretend to be his friend and make a nice photo-op. I would shake his hand and look him square in the eye and start asking what the real reasons for invading and occupying Iraq are. What is the real reason for allying with extremists like the Sauds, Israel and Turkey? Why must we torture innocent and guilty people? What is wrong with our judicial system that you cannot use it to achieve justice? Why does the Patriot Act need to circumvent the Constitution? Etc.

Have you ever heard the president respond to questions similar to those? He says it is disgusting for us to question him.

Respect. Not standing is not dis-respectful. It is a political statement. You are proving my earlier contention that our society conditions us to oppose anything that deviates from the norm.

 

[jillian]

And I have been to many churches. If everyone prays and I do not, no one notices. Besides, we make our choices and if one has enough cajones to make a statement, then they should have the integrity to back that up with conviction.

Hiding behind the respect notion is another way to say "Just fit in, cut your hair, don't wear jeans, listen to Country Music, etc."

And my 11 year old is mature enough to make up her own mind. She knows that my wife and I love her no matter what.

Plus, never judge a book by it's cover.

If I go to someone's church, I don't pray. But I do stand while they kneel out of respect.

Fit in? Listen to country music? No. I wouldn't suggest either of those either. But the truth is, if you're going to do something where you deal with the public beyond being a store clerk, you do have to look like you have a modicum of intelligence. I wouldn't go to a doctor with a tatood face or piercings all over and green hair. You're right, the person might be brilliant, but he/she would look like they weren't deserving of that kind of trust.

We judge books by their cover all the time. Not always rightly, but we do. And if someone wants to limit their success by choosing to look a certain way, that's certainly their choice and they may be successful in other ways.

 

[82Marine89]

In your original post to s]Semper Fi your tone had an underlying message of "Get the freak and teach him a lesson"

Quote me and show me where that underlying message is.

 

[Taomon]

Quote me and show me where that underlying message is.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 1st Amendment apply to the government? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I respect the rules of the property owner of whose property I am on. While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it. "

You are right that he has the right to talk to his friend. Your tone changed (where I bolded the letters) to that of a nationalist. Your underlying tone is teach him a lesson he does not deserve respect.

Look, give it up. Everyone here either agrees or disagrees. You cannot take back what you said and you cannot change the nature of which you said it.

And you are trying to backtrack. I think you felt vindicated when you wrote it and feel differently now that I have proven you wrong.

Just leave it alone and I will too.

 

[82Marine89]

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 1st Amendment apply to the government? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I respect the rules of the property owner of whose property I am on. While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it. "

You are right that he has the right to talk to his friend. Your tone changed (where I bolded the letters) to that of a nationalist. Your underlying tone is teach him a lesson he does not deserve respect.

Look, give it up. Everyone here either agrees or disagrees. You cannot take back what you said and you cannot change the nature of which you said it.

And you are trying to backtrack. I think you felt vindicated when you wrote it and feel differently now that I have proven you wrong.

Just leave it alone and I will too.

Glad you can tell my tone from reading something. I'm not backtracking from shit. You are making some grand assumptions and you don't like having to prove what you say. Especially since you can't. You accused me of being a Nationalist. You called me violent and racist. You have not been able to prove any of it except to say my tone is... Now I know why your kid won't stand for the pledge. She probably assumes she is pleasing her folks. At least that's the underlying tone from your statements.