Remember how the Arctic Ice Cap is shrinking?

[IanC]

arctic ice is reforming at unprecedented rates. is that good news?

 

[mamooth]

It's called "winter arriving at the north pole". It's neither good or bad news. It's what's expected. When there are record amounts of open water, there will be record amounts of refreeze. Is there some denialist blog which is being stupid enough to push "record refreeze" as something unexpected?

Of course, it refreezes into thin first-year ice. Each winter, the ice refreezes in _area_ back to near normal levels, but _volume_ is lower each year. The summer comes, the new thin ice melts fast, and we see a new record low area in summer.

So, the poles will always refreeze in the winter. It's at peak melt, in September, that we'll soon start seeing an ice-free north pole, and then an arctic ocean almost totally ice-free in high summer.

 

[Qantrill]

While the destruction of the environmental niche of any animal is not a good thing, I am not worried about polar bears. I am worried about the degradement of our living standard, and the outright threat to the survival of people in the third world from a rapidly changing climate. A climate that negatively impacts agricultural in a world containing 7 billion people.

The weather won't be NEAR the problem that overpopulation of "3rd world" countries will be. But the United States is on the verge of becoming a second world nation...traveling the route to third world status. And an overabundance of either heat or freezing temperatures will have NOTHING to do with it.

 

[Foxfyre]

While the destruction of the environmental niche of any animal is not a good thing, I am not worried about polar bears. I am worried about the degradement of our living standard, and the outright threat to the survival of people in the third world from a rapidly changing climate. A climate that negatively impacts agricultural in a world containing 7 billion people.

The weather won't be NEAR the problem that overpopulation of "3rd world" countries will be. But the United States is on the verge of becoming a second world nation...traveling the route to third world status. And an overabundance of either heat or freezing temperatures will have NOTHING to do with it.

That is true. Climate change one way or another won't have anything to do with it; however unwise homage paid to the global warming 'gods' and the nations who wish to assume that role could certainly hasten that reality.

 

[theHawk]

What did the polar caps look like 10,000 years ago?

 

[Foxfyre]

arctic ice is reforming at unprecedented rates. is that good news?

But Ian, didn't you get the memo?

Arctic ice reforming at an unprecedented rate is due to global warming.
Arctic ice reforming at a slower than usual rate is due to global warming.
Decreased ice cover at either pole is due to global warming.
Increased ice cover at either pole is due to global warming.
An increase in ocean levels is due to global warming.
A decrease in ocean levels is due to global warming.
Increased rainfall/snowfall is due to global warming.
Decreased rainfall/snowfall is due to global warming.
A higher than normal year of hurricanes is evidence of global warming.
Lack of hurricanes is evidence of global warming.
Computer models that show global warming are to be taken seriously.
Computer models that do not show global warming are not to be taken seriously.
34 years of satellite imaging is sufficient to show that dangerous global warming is happening.
34 years of satellite imaging is insufficient to show that dangerous global warming isn't happening.
And restricting a whole lot of human technology and activity will fix it.

Now you study that and we'll give you a new test tomorrow.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Weeeeeeeeeellllllll, maybe not. Seems that NASA has a new video that shows the sea ice breakup was actually do to a storm....whoops. Looks like it wasn't due to warming after all.

Doesn't it just suck when science prooves you wrong...yet again?



"A powerful storm wreaked havoc on the Arctic sea ice cover in August 2012. This visualization shows the strength and direction of the winds and their impact on the ice: the red vectors represent the fastest winds, while blue vectors stand for slower winds."

NASA - Multimedia - Video Gallery

And from this one video, posted by NASA you conclude NASA is correct or incorrect in it's statements on the climate and ice melt?


[youtube]t7T7beACtQs[/youtube]

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

psst, profit to be made. Let's get the shock troops, you know..the gullible and malleable conservative base all riled up over the cost of climate science

http://science.time.com/2012/09/11/arctic-sea-ice-vanishes-and-the-oil-rigs-move-in/

 

[westwall]

psst, profit to be made. Let's get the shock troops, you know..the gullible and malleable conservative base all riled up over the cost of climate science

As Arctic Sea Ice Melts Thanks to Climate Change, Drilling for Oil | Science and Space | TIME.com

 

[mamooth]

Acceptance of AGW theory up to 70% in USA.

Americans’ Global Warming Beliefs and Attitudes in September 2012 | *Yale Project on Climate Change Communication

Ruh-roh. The USA is the last bastion of denialist idiocy, but denialist propaganda isn't even working in the USA any longer. No wonder they're in such a panic.

(And I see Westwall still doesn't know what a "lead" is. That level of ignorance is required to sustain denailism. I mean, he actually thinks a crack in the ice is equivalent to all the ice melting.)

 

[IanC]

Acceptance of AGW theory up to 70% in USA.

Americans’ Global Warming Beliefs and Attitudes in September 2012 | *Yale Project on Climate Change Communication

Ruh-roh. The USA is the last bastion of denialist idiocy, but denialist propaganda isn't even working in the USA any longer. No wonder they're in such a panic.

(And I see Westwall still doesn't know what a "lead" is. That level of ignorance is required to sustain denailism. I mean, he actually thinks a crack in the ice is equivalent to all the ice melting.)

ya know mamooth, that 'poll' would be a lot easier to believe if it had been done by a professional polling company rather than university project with a known agenda.

I dont know how many people here actually keep up with climate wars news, but there has been a rather interesting case developing over the last few months. an australian professor published a paper based on 'polls' that showed that 'deniers' were kooks who didnt believe in AGW because the moon landing was faked. of course the skeptical side pointed out all of his numerous errors, in poll design and statistics, etc. what really caught my eye was the ease in which Lewandowsky was able to switch the focus of his paper once the original project was passed by the ethics committee.

"NASA faked the moon landing – Therefore (Climate) Science is a Hoax: An Anatomy of the Motivated Rejection of Science" by Lewandowsky et al is the name of the paper if anyone wants to google the paper or the stories about it.

 

[Foxfyre]

And I am still perplexed why the AGW proponents are so anxious and eager to believe? Wouldn't those who want people to be more free, to have more choices, to have more opportunities, to have more options--wouldn't those who wanted that for themselves--be eager to see data that gave some hope and encouragement that maybe the scary AGW scenarios weren't so scary? Why are they so opposed to looking at both sides being presented?

 

[westwall]

Acceptance of AGW theory up to 70% in USA.

Americans’ Global Warming Beliefs and Attitudes in September 2012 | *Yale Project on Climate Change Communication

Ruh-roh. The USA is the last bastion of denialist idiocy, but denialist propaganda isn't even working in the USA any longer. No wonder they're in such a panic.

(And I see Westwall still doesn't know what a "lead" is. That level of ignorance is required to sustain denailism. I mean, he actually thinks a crack in the ice is equivalent to all the ice melting.)

Um, yeah, a survey based on the responses from 1061 Americans is soooo compelling. Only 400 had a college degree so that limits the scientific acumen as well.

All in all a pretty poor excuse for a survey. And yes I do indeed know what a lead is, show us a lead at the north pole today silly person. Show us a lead anywhere at the supposedly lowest sea ice level evah! where you could have a sub pop to the surface like occured back in 87.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh, and AGW is absolute total bullshit

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-old-redwood-chunk-found-in-diamond-mine.html

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh, and AGW is absolute total bullshit

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-old-redwood-chunk-found-in-diamond-mine.html

That I honestly don't know. I think the objective scientific consensus is that the Earth does, in fits and starts but steadily overall, warm continuously after each ice age until it reaches an optimum peak at which time we begin the process of entering a new ice age. So it is not only possible, but probable that the Earth is warming unless we have hit the maximum.

But we also have scientific evidence of times when the CO2 levels were much higher but the Earth was cooler than now; and we have scientific evidence when the Earth was much warmer than now.

So the argument now is whether we humans have anything at all to do with it, and, if we do, can we realistically change that? And of course, if the evidence shows that we humans are pretty insignificant in the overall big picture re climate change, then I sure as heck don't want to hand over my freedoms, choices, options, and opportunities to governing powers who likely won't treat them in any way that I will like.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh, and AGW is absolute total bullshit

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-old-redwood-chunk-found-in-diamond-mine.html

That I honestly don't know. I think the objective scientific consensus is that the Earth does, in fits and starts but steadily overall, warm continuously after each ice age until it reaches an optimum peak at which time we begin the process of entering a new ice age. So it is not only possible, but probable that the Earth is warming unless we have hit the maximum.

But we also have scientific evidence of times when the CO2 levels were much higher but the Earth was cooler than now; and we have scientific evidence when the Earth was much warmer than now.

So the argument now is whether we humans have anything at all to do with it, and, if we do, can we realistically change that? And of course, if the evidence shows that we humans are pretty insignificant in the overall big picture re climate change, then I sure as heck don't want to hand over my freedoms, choices, options, and opportunities to governing powers who likely won't treat them in any way that I will like.

The AGW God is dead

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh, and AGW is absolute total bullshit

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-old-redwood-chunk-found-in-diamond-mine.html

That I honestly don't know. I think the objective scientific consensus is that the Earth does, in fits and starts but steadily overall, warm continuously after each ice age until it reaches an optimum peak at which time we begin the process of entering a new ice age. So it is not only possible, but probable that the Earth is warming unless we have hit the maximum.

But we also have scientific evidence of times when the CO2 levels were much higher but the Earth was cooler than now; and we have scientific evidence when the Earth was much warmer than now.

So the argument now is whether we humans have anything at all to do with it, and, if we do, can we realistically change that? And of course, if the evidence shows that we humans are pretty insignificant in the overall big picture re climate change, then I sure as heck don't want to hand over my freedoms, choices, options, and opportunities to governing powers who likely won't treat them in any way that I will like.

The AGW God is dead

Well don't look now, but for some of our friends here, he doesn't know that and doesn't have the good sense to lay down.

 

[Old Rocks]

The American Dream
I just uploaded a short video and to stay on the "climate subject" I had to rub it in as usual how "warm" it is today where I live. My oldest friend Siegfried in Germany who could easily be "OldRocks" is used to my teasing over the years.
Ameircan Dream Catcher - YouTube

All my dreams have come true. When I was a little kid I closed my eyes and put my finger a couple of times on a globe my dad had on his desk.
It "landed" on the Yukon and Manitoba. Then I wanted to know from my dad "what`s up there" and he explained "The North Pole".
I`m not making this up, but that`s how it was and since then I`ve been and even lived in all these places. Now I`m living out my last few years on Long Plain First Nations which made me part for their tribal family. Just a few days ago I got the best birthday presents (video greetings) from my old friends and this morning some more from a brand new friend from right here in this forum,...the U.S. Message Board,...where I enjoy hanging out almost as much as where I live now.
Especially so since I got a heart-warming e-mail from somebody I argued with before.
It did not take long to realize that we are all human beings who share common values even though we don`t agree in politics and climate computer models. The internet is a great info-& meeting place but it can also dehumanize how we communicate with each other. As far as this forum is concerned that no longer applies in my view, since I`ve read the e-mail I got from one of my fiercest discussion opponents.
It`s not up to me to say who that is but he is a good example to show how often the internet and reality diverge and former foes can become good friends, even if we have different opinions about a few subjects.But as I said, Long Plain First Nations is just a big family and no matter where You live we make You a part of it .
Not only will we send out greetings to You over www Rez Radio

Rez Radio LIVE

...but also tokens of our friendship such as what my daughter is making right now for Siegfried in Landsberg Germany. There is nothing stopping us to do the same right here in this forum yet still have a difference of opinion.
Greetings from Canada
P.S.: although I`m a Clint Eastwood fan I`m going to change my signature avatar.
Where I live most of our traffic signs have bullet holes, but that was just for target practice. We don`t really shoot anybody..

Thank you for your video from Germany. That country looks much like the Willemette Valley. 1200 years old. My, here in the Pacific Northwest, any place with a white history of over 150 years is considered old. However, there are Clovis artifacts found in the Steens Mountain area. So often we think here of history beginning with the coming of the European Americans. In fact, the Chinook culture had a trading route that ran from the Prince of Wales island to Baja California. Because of measles, less than 1 in 10 of these people were here when the settlers started arriving in the wagon trains.

I have been researching the Canadian Dakota on the net, and found some of the history of the Dakota wars in 1861. It was very informative of hearing it from the Dakota side, as my maternal family, on my grandmothers side, Dutch, all the way back to New Amsterdam, had a family member that served in the Union Army during that war. He was shot twice in a skirmish, and spent a couple of years recovering. Then emigrated to the Oregon Territory, and settled in the Prosser area of Washington State. Oral history in the family has him stating that were he in the Indians shoes, he would have gone to war with the whites.

Looked up Portage on the map. Much further south than I thought. Not that far from North Dakota. Looked it up on Google Earth, also. What rich farming land! And there is an odd linement that extends from north Manitoba all the way down to Nebraska. Going to have to research that.

Just finished my first mid-term. Now finishing the next two weeks homework, as we are going into a week long shutdown, so I will have no time for homework for at least a week.

 

[westwall]

The American Dream
I just uploaded a short video and to stay on the "climate subject" I had to rub it in as usual how "warm" it is today where I live. My oldest friend Siegfried in Germany who could easily be "OldRocks" is used to my teasing over the years.
Ameircan Dream Catcher - YouTube

All my dreams have come true. When I was a little kid I closed my eyes and put my finger a couple of times on a globe my dad had on his desk.
It "landed" on the Yukon and Manitoba. Then I wanted to know from my dad "what`s up there" and he explained "The North Pole".
I`m not making this up, but that`s how it was and since then I`ve been and even lived in all these places. Now I`m living out my last few years on Long Plain First Nations which made me part for their tribal family. Just a few days ago I got the best birthday presents (video greetings) from my old friends and this morning some more from a brand new friend from right here in this forum,...the U.S. Message Board,...where I enjoy hanging out almost as much as where I live now.
Especially so since I got a heart-warming e-mail from somebody I argued with before.
It did not take long to realize that we are all human beings who share common values even though we don`t agree in politics and climate computer models. The internet is a great info-& meeting place but it can also dehumanize how we communicate with each other. As far as this forum is concerned that no longer applies in my view, since I`ve read the e-mail I got from one of my fiercest discussion opponents.
It`s not up to me to say who that is but he is a good example to show how often the internet and reality diverge and former foes can become good friends, even if we have different opinions about a few subjects.But as I said, Long Plain First Nations is just a big family and no matter where You live we make You a part of it .
Not only will we send out greetings to You over www Rez Radio

Rez Radio LIVE

...but also tokens of our friendship such as what my daughter is making right now for Siegfried in Landsberg Germany. There is nothing stopping us to do the same right here in this forum yet still have a difference of opinion.
Greetings from Canada
P.S.: although I`m a Clint Eastwood fan I`m going to change my signature avatar.
Where I live most of our traffic signs have bullet holes, but that was just for target practice. We don`t really shoot anybody..

Thank you for your video from Germany. That country looks much like the Willemette Valley. 1200 years old. My, here in the Pacific Northwest, any place with a white history of over 150 years is considered old. However, there are Clovis artifacts found in the Steens Mountain area. So often we think here of history beginning with the coming of the European Americans. In fact, the Chinook culture had a trading route that ran from the Prince of Wales island to Baja California. Because of measles, less than 1 in 10 of these people were here when the settlers started arriving in the wagon trains.

I have been researching the Canadian Dakota on the net, and found some of the history of the Dakota wars in 1861. It was very informative of hearing it from the Dakota side, as my maternal family, on my grandmothers side, Dutch, all the way back to New Amsterdam, had a family member that served in the Union Army during that war. He was shot twice in a skirmish, and spent a couple of years recovering. Then emigrated to the Oregon Territory, and settled in the Prosser area of Washington State. Oral history in the family has him stating that were he in the Indians shoes, he would have gone to war with the whites.

Looked up Portage on the map. Much further south than I thought. Not that far from North Dakota. Looked it up on Google Earth, also. What rich farming land! And there is an odd linement that extends from north Manitoba all the way down to Nebraska. Going to have to research that.

Just finished my first mid-term. Now finishing the next two weeks homework, as we are going into a week long shutdown, so I will have no time for homework for at least a week.

There are some excellent books out that cover the native American side of the battle. Below is a list of some I found most useful.

Inkpadutaakota Leader by Paul Beck.
Crazy Horse a Lakota Life by Bray
Life and Adventures of Frank Grouard by DeBarthe
Indian Hero's and Great Cheiftains by Eastman
The Sacred Pipe;Black Elks Account of then i forget the rest, by Brown.
There's also an account of the actions of Moving Robe Woman that is good but I can't remember its name or author.

 

[Foxfyre]

Moving Robe Woman I belief was Sioux and was in the Montana/Wyoming territory. Legend has it that it was she who actually killed Custer, though most historians think that highly unlikely.